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Posts posted by tripletopper

  1. Okay. So I'm right that the display tech causes the vast majority of delay.


    Now the big question.  How does RF, Composite, S-Video, Component, and SCART based retro consoles look and play on a VGA monitor?


    For the scanlines, is there too much black in between the color lines, like 3/4 the picture was black?


    As for delay, does the VGA monitor pass the "plays just like the old days" feel test?  I understand converters can delay the picture, but it's so insignificant, that the only way you notice is by playing light gun games and noticing your aim is off?


    I have a separate setup for light gun games.

  2. I'm just wondering if other people felt as I do. 


    Like for example in Street Fighter 4, I noticed I was able to pull off dragon punches with my left hand, when before only a right-handed joystick could pull it off for me.  And also does it seem like combos were easier to execute in Street Fighter 3 and before, despite the fact they were not given to you, yet in Street Fighter 4 they give you monster combos and the only way a reasonable person can unlock them is by practicing against a dummy.  So it seems like they eased up on joystick accuracy, and in return weekend special moves, while they made button accuracy more important, compounding it by knowing lots of people play on a non crt tv, and paid it off with unblockable combos of Killer Instinct length and power,  yet KI has a breaker as a combo defense, and SF doesn't.


    But it's not just fighters.  Before December 2012, I was playing on a component CRT and was doing pretty well in Super Meat Boy.  But as soon as I switched to a Sony PlayStation 3D TV, which was considered one of the better modern TVs at the time, I sort of lost the consistent feel to make consistent progress and I'm stuck on the last level before the final boss.


    Now the question becomes is HDMI naturally laggy, or could you transfer an HDMI signal to a CRT monitor and have sub microsecond ping?


    First of all, for most games,  I don't need ping that accurate.  if I need something that accurate I'll do my light gun streams downstairs and leave everything else upstairs.


    As a test, I tried an HDMI signal both through a Hauppauge Rocket and directly, and noticed no difference.  And Hauppauge claims a maximum of one millisecond ping.


    Yet I noticed if I hook up an analog VCR in between the game and the TV, the light gun's aim gets thrown off a few pixels to the right.


    Finally I have a test to see whether those 1 millisecond gray-to-gray monitors can pass my quick ping test that I can only do on a CRT monitor,. and that's getting a Michael Larson like score on a flash version of Press Your Luck.  I tried it Best Buy at first I thought I failed but I found out that that app adds delay.  I got to find the earliest version, with no ping added.  So for now, TN monitors are inconclusive if they're low ping enough.  Plus I read the real delay is 10 milliseconds on most of them.


    Based on this test it seems resolution change and TV drawing technology contribute most to delay.


    I bought 2000 era CRT VGA monitor and I'm trying to figure out whether it's better just as an HDMI low-paying alternative, or weather lower-resolution consoles pre HDMI are better on a real CRT TV versus converting from composite component S-Video or RF to VGA.


    Most people say if you go from HDMI to VGA CRT that the screen is squished and you have to use manual monitor controls to get it in the proper a show yet letterboxed.


    Now the question becomes how well does a VGA CRT monitor work for classic gaming.  In the two biggest issues are ping (for the purposes of playing anything except light gun games and maybe Sega scope games), and the look of the TV image second.


    First probably this would all be moot if the monitor does not have multiple settings so I could switch between native 4 by 3 and native 16 by 9 input to a 16 by 9 output very easily.  Keep my mind it's going directly from a classic video game output to a VGA with no computer processor in the middle as far as I could tell.  And if a processor was used,  would that add enough delay to throw off a non light gun game.(I'm okay with throwing off a light gun game.  I'll move to a more direct TV if that's the case.)


    I've seen my old iMac do a fairly clean picture to a Sony wega when an S-Video cable is plugged into the back of my iMac.  And it beat the Monitor and I was able to play Press Your Luck and get a Larson like score.


    But some people say taking a 480i or 240p Game source and pumping it in VGA makes very big scan lines therefore are hard to play when the black sections are bigger than the colored.


    Also before I read about other stuff I found for cheap three of the four scart cables I need for Genesis, SNES, Saturn and Dreamcast, the only four systems that could do scart natively without a mod.


    AndI found a SCART to 3 RCA red green blue connector.  How do I tell if the three RCA is RGB or ypbpr?  and how do I tell if the system scart cable or the scarf to 3 RCA connector is for the true European SCART or the Japanese equivalent? I heard they're physically the same but plug the wrong one in and TVs could get burnt.



  3. 13 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

     ... I guess for me it got even worse when PS2 DualShock2 introduced analog face buttons ("pressure sensitive" they called them ... it's a button so I venture its purpose is to be pressed no?) .... what a joke please ... and this is coming from someone that had the (dis)pleasure to play at the arcade Street Fighter 1 (yes ONE) with pneumatic buttons ... if you ever have the chance you should give it a try, it's educational.


    On shoryuken.con i wonder if the original intent if analog button on SF1 was to physically wear out a person who pounds the button.


    In SF2 and beyond, there was a "cost" for going all hard all the time, the most obvious of which were a slow draw and a slow reload.


    It seems like there's no ludistic advantage for going light except being less tiring.  Once the analog button were replaced with 6 button panel, it became s less tiring, less mechanically broken, but way more ludistically broken.


    The good news about the TG16 version is you have to "cock" your heavies with a commitment using timing.  The bad news is (based on the Wii VC version) I literally threw 2 fireballs, and both times when not intending to do it.


    Since the PS4 and Xbox One have analog triggers, the protocols are there.  A physical fight stick can have 2 analog buttons for LT/RT , L2/R2.  ( for the switch, make a wired controller which used the RS to determine the punch strength.    This can a more accurate SFI simulation AS ORIGINALLY INTENDED. 


    Also have a download Super Street Fighter 1 with ROM enforced natural penalties for going all heavy as a togglable option, (slower draw, slower reload, etc). and have all CPU characters be human controlled, and Ryu/Ken be CPU controllable, and everything networked.  Could come as s free DLC with analog button fightstick purchase and either a physical or download SF30.

  4. That's weird.  They make less 3d movies, require you to scower the earth.  I try to buy legitimate 3d copies if available.  But most 3d movies are foreign, even though made for a significant US market. Some are labeled region B only.  I can't play those.  There are ones labeled ABC.  some are legitamate world discs, others are bootleg BD-Rs.


    I assume if it plays on my US Xbox One, then it's a legitamate region A, AB, AC, or ABC disc.


    BTW I complain if a BD-R comes from Ebay and it's a 2D disc.


    I complain to all the studios and most have standard "Thank you. We appreciate you feedback.. ..." type emails.

    • Confused 1

  5. 20 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

    Heresy .... I bought my PS1 when digital-only was all that was available and once the DualShock came about I hated it.

    I want my racing games to have an on-off digital accelerator and an on-off digital steering ... I am not even kidding I got pretty good at tapping accelerator/left/right as needed to obtain the effect I need to obtain (that is play within the rule of the game to my advantage), even if the reply seen from outside the cockpit makes all those "tapping the steering" look like the front wheels are having a bout of tourette.

    Once you realize in Ridge Racing Revolution that you can perform a sliding corner rotating the other way you'll never want to use any analog (yeah, if done right in RRR you can slide-steer left by initiating the slide to the left but then rotate to the right with the car doing a 270 instead of the more natural 90 expected ... some physics those game had).


    To these days I am not a fan of analog controllers, at best they add a couple of notches between off/full-throttle (I truth I do like Mario64 tip-toeing around the sleeping plant) but they are a very pale replacement for all-in real controllers (full on steering wheels, full one flight sticks etc... etc....).


    I even dislike the vibration feedback (aka small eccentric rotating at variable speeds) as they add weight to the controller with little to no real benefit, it's not immersive, it's just distracting ... the controller I like the most is the Jap (and US 2nd version) Saturn Pad with 6 buttons (3x2) and 2 shoulder buttons, no analogs, no "rumble", no bs, pure bliss.


    I also played enough racing games with the tap tap searing in the tap tap break and the tap tap accelerator right where I had about 15 years of that kind of experience before being exposed to analog controls.  Settled in control is not something naturally and graded me in video gaming.  In real life driving yes, but not video game driving.  


    One of the things I'm planning to do at sinistersticks.com is find a way to get a fightstick working with the Atari 5200.  because stock controllers are awful for most of the arcade style games.  I think there's only like 7 games that would be better with a analog controller than a digital one, kaboom  Star wars, missile command, super breakout, Pole position, and possibly two others I can't think of now.  Enough of the games other than the ones above require quick acceleration from movement to stop and vice versa, as well as movement one way to another way.  And kaboom requires quick acceleration from and  to any point along the x-axis but not necessarily both ends in the center.


    My strategy is taking a NES or SNES era PC joypad which has a digital thumb pad, and use the analogizing technology that's currently built into yhe pad, plus a Bohoki adapter from atariage usable Bohoki. And viols, instant 5200 fight stick.


    Andthe best part is neither me or the guy assembling it have to know anything about analogizing technologies.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.


    And it seems like the people at shoryuken.con are so fighter-focused, they seem to forget a lot of older systems would be better with a modern  fightstick.


    Almost literally every game is better with a fightstick pre PS1 DualShock 1 compared to the default pad.  Thank you Edladdin for making discrete to 7800 and discrete to ColecoVision PCBs. Probably the other big ones are Intellivision 5200, qnd vectrex.  The big question is, will he do digital 8 direction inputs being mapped to either 16 direction outputs for in TV or four analog outputs to 5200 and vectrex, or Will he build 16 way and analog components for physically 100% compatibility with those systems.


    Iwould buy intellivision 8 way discrete adapters.  Reading the directions online I'm not sure if either my guy could do it correctly or if he doesn't understand, if I could explain it.  You have to buy special logic chips.  And I don't know if they require any special knowledge or equipment besides soldering and general electronics to use right.

  6. I wasn't hating on PS1 DualShock ones or PS1 standard controllers.  I'm keeping one of each anyway for myself possibly to for a regular multiplayer partner / opponent.  but if I do have enough local friends and family to play an 8 player game,. I just want to make sure that the other six being DualShock 2s would that be considered awful in some PS1 games.


    Even though you could play Street Fighter with a pad, at least 75% of players say it's awful to play with the default pad.


    And believe, it or not I have 2 3 button Genesis controllers for certain games and they want a third for one game.  Mrs Pac-Man and Forgotten worlds being the obvious two, and if I could find one free button, Wheel of Fortune Sega CD.  I still have my original Wii for the very few games that can't be played with either a GameCube or Wii u,. Namely active life games, dance dance revolution games,. and a couple games where you must use a GameCube pad and not a Wii Classic Controller,. Like Metal Slug Anthology.


    I'm just asking this question because if for some strange reason someone wants the land party and we don't have enough Playstation controls,. I was wondering if there were any games that were considered all Fall with the DualShock 2 but could be remedied with it or DualShock 1 or standard controller.


    the reason why I asked is because analog buttons are up to interpretation on a PS1.  If a PlayStation one game doesn't have specific code for DualShock 2 controllers,. Does it read the grossest bit meaning: over 50% is pressed and  under 50% is not. 


    And since any even-numbered base does not have an exactly middle numeral without expressing the number as as 10 in that base, it's impossible to be exactly half.  If numbers run between 0 and 255 ( all possible 8 digit base 2 numbers ) 127 is just below half and is unpressed, 128 is just above half and is pressed.  What 49 way Joysticks do is define the middle 2 numbers is 0 and is considered a 3-bit joystick in X & Y.  8 possible positions with the middle to being zero, for both X and Y, making 7 in each axis.


    frankly I was mostly a Sega guy and my brother and dad were mostly Nintendo guys but we both won each other over on our respective parts.


    I would not be in the Sony ecosystem if it weren't for three things.(apppatent, Android chrome playing of the wrbsite won't let me sdd a collapsable tangentisl note.  So i'll indicatebit visually. With ^ yo start and v to end)





    The first was a year or 2, when the Saturn stopped and the N64 was going slow.


    The second was post Dreamcast when you only possible internet connection was dial-up or satellite,. and Xbox advertised AS A FEATURE it's not dial up compatible, and I was unsure of what the GameCube was doing (turned out the GameCube modem was basically the way to get Sega to make GameCube games, has phantasy Star online 1 + 2 being the only two games that are hard to replace when the servers go down.  (Yes there's Madden, but the least popular games to go back and play in the past or sports games,. But only if they're tied to a specific year of a pro league.  Blades of steel will be played forever,. Your average PlayStation men will not.  How many people would rather play 07 than 04?  Or the  reverse?)


    And the third was basically my Dad buying a PlayStation 3 as the combined absolute cheapest and a great value considering the features Blu-ray player at the time and later 3D player. ( Do you know my Playstation 3 still plays my 3D discs despite the fact I have an Xbox One.  and more times the night the improvements made on the Xbox One prevent discs from playing that we did before rather than making certain previously incompatible discs compatible.  Yes my Xbox One does lock out certain 3D blu-rays.  Considering you have to either import or pirate to get quite a few and ever increasing 3D movies, why does Xbox One make it harder to play them?)






    As you can see not much of a PlayStation fan. Just dabbled and was serious in Playstation for probably about 5  years of my whole gaming life. Two between Saturn and Dreamcast and three between Dreamcast and Xbox 360.


    I'm not intending to hate on DualShock ones or standard PlayStation pads,  but I don't know enough to know about it other than to know the newbie answer which is: 8 DualShock 2s would be enough to play any party game for the PS1 or the PS2.  and I got most of them at a thrift store for like maybe a dollar apiece before Macklemore's song, Thrift Shop, became popular.


    So would it be handy to keep more than one DualShock 1 and standard controller for any conceivable reason that enough people subscribe to if you already have 8 working DualShock 2s?

  7. Well now i see the topic is changed so this is on topic ENOUGH to not make a new topic. .)


    There are many devices which turn discrete digital joystick buttons (meaning each pin is one signal) into a functional copy of controls for lots of systems from NES to Switch, PS4 and Xbox One, as well as PC USB.  However, they all cover the same few systems.  The ones usually bot covered are Genesis 3 and 6, N64, Master System, Wii Classic, and any system not made by neither Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, nor Sega other than TG16.  So what do you do if you want to play OTHER ststems?


    Some systems, which have one wire for each cardinal and diagonal, like the Astrocade, Sega Master System, Neo Geo, and possibly the 2600 booster grip, but if not, the basic 2600 can use straight control to port hookup.  All other systems use coding to fit more data on the pins.


    I heard the easiest way (and the lowest ping way) to hook up controller is to wire the controls into a certain part of a disassembled controller PCB directly and remotely actuate the control.


    Anyone who knows how to use a soldering gun can look at a diagram and solder the wires to act as remote actuator.


    Maybe this is a good sub-page for wiring guides on controllers not covered by multiconsole PCBs.


    Here are N64, Sega Genesis 3 and 6 button pad hacking diagrams: (i don't know how to add them where I want to put them on an Android)


    There are a couple other systems that could use existing modern retro game market PCBs, like Edladdin's CV and 7800 PCB.  ( Also there's a genesis to 7800 adapter, but then,  there's the ping issue.)


    The 2 largest holes in the system ( at least that I have) are 3DO and Jaguar.  I looked on google under the term "3DO/Jaguar pad hacking diagram fight stick" and unable ti gind pictures.







  8. 1 hour ago, jaybird3rd said:

    Agreed.  You have already been asked, tripletopper, to refrain from starting any additional threads about game controllers; it seems as if you already have at least one in almost every subforum on AtariAge.  I have retitled this thread and merged the three posts from your new thread into it, along with the posts from yet another new thread on the Odyssey² and Arcadia.


    Again, no new game controller threads.  If you continue to ignore this warning, you will be placed back on moderator preview

    Well, isn't categorizing suoposed to be a funnel to reach specific interests.  Even though there are manty controller posts, what's an easier read, discussing controller compatibiity in Playstation Specific sub fourm, and the Odyssey and Arcadia externalizers in a general classic forum?  


    If i follow  the supposed rule of "do not monopolize recents"  then I'll have really long posts that goes on forever where half or more of the info is irrelavent to at least half the people who click.


    And the titles are specific enough not to fraudulently suck viewers in with clickbait.


    What's easier, specifying a subject well enough to not get false clicks or a catch all post just to not monopolize recents.


    Also, as an example I use,  a different forum, Shoryuken.com , prefers new posts over resurrecting old posts I know forums are different enough to have different minor rules. 


    It's just that Shoryuken has low priority for Pre NES stuff and other stuff not specific enough to fight games/ joysticks. 


    Atariage has become a general purpose forum sbout home video games.  I assume you have different categories of focus to reach relevant readers.  So a Coleco fan doesn't have to read about Intellivision unless it's related ENOUGH  to Colecovision.


    • Confused 1

  9. 1.  I have 8 dusp shock 2s for 8 player games.


    2.  I just wanted to see if any ps1 games were funny with a Dual Shock 2. I heard all digital only ps1 games work with Dual Shock 1s.  I was just unaware of DualShock 2 perfromance quirks.


    I know all PS2 games are designed to work with Dual Shock 1s unless "pressure sensitive buttons" is indicated.  And PS2 digital-only games work with a standard PS1 controller.


    The only issue i may see is how the analog buttons are read, (100% pressure only actuates, 50%+ for actuating, or barely any pressure for actuation.) On PS1 games plsyed on a real PS1 vs a PS2.


    I know of 3 six-button Genesis exceptions that I have, Ms Pac Man, Forgotten Worlds, and Wheel of Fortune CD.  And I have 2 Colecovision Super Action exceptions. Just seeing if there are any DS2 exceptions.

  10. I have 8 PS2 dual shock 2d by going to the 'Ken Awesome place, Goodwill and their ilk.


    I have a few PS1 Dual Shock 1s and a few PS1 digitals.


    i know there are a few minor incompatible games occasionally, like 10 or less PS1 titles not working in PS2s.  Using Multitap 1s for PS2 games on PS2,  and Multitap 2s for PS2 games.  Also memory cards should stick to their Strict System.


    Are there any PS1 games that either objectively do not work with PS2 dualshock 2, or have a radically different enough feel with a PS2 controller that you might want to compare.  


    Based on what I heard at the time,  most PS1 games take the coursest pressure sensor bit, meaning halfway or more is on less than half is off.  Others require full pressure to activate the analog buttons.  Still others even the slightest pressure would activate buttons.  Those ate the only 3 ways one could convert a Dualshock 2 for PS1 games.  Therefore it is software specific.


    is there some sort of weblist about which games exhibit which behavior with DualShock twos?


    I'm just checking to see whether DualShock ones and digital Joypads are useless space eaters in a collection, or have some gameplay value even today.



  11. The Nurmix adapter had you open the case and replace hard wired INTV controllers with a 9 pin of the INTV2, ( and with rearrangements, a flashback)


    Someone can copy a nurmix adapter and make it fir the hardwired o2.


    As for the Arcadia, should i assume the keypad is matricized ( hopefully simple like INTV and 5200 with row pins and column pins, and not Colecovision logic which thankfully Edladdin solved. ) So a 5200 controller and a Bohoki adapter should work.  Or a PC 15 pin NES style digital pad and a custom keypad layout.

    • Confused 1

  12. Which is the easiest way of getting my multi-iconsole fight stick working with the 7800.


    A) disassembling a 7800 for the PCB if it's the mechanics failing and not the electronics and soldering discrete wires to the contact points?  If so may I have a diagram of where to solder for my friend to follow?


    B) building a 7800 logic board.  If I read the logic right. The four joystick directions and the ground and, if necessary, voltage,  are 6 straight pins.  The buttons are the most complicated thing the 2600 fire is the 2600 fire in 7800.  And the separate left and right fires have a separate pin.  But the left or right pin and the common 2600 pin must actuate together.  I don't know if my Hired hand can do that.


    C) just buy an already built PCB from Edladdin.


    D) buy a genesis to 7800 adapter.  The main problem I heard with that is ping.  


    By the way my joystick starts out at all discreet inputs and gets encoded four systems from NES and beyond.

    • Confused 1

  13. I found and bought a naked 3do controller control pad, and was thinking of making it work with my fight game system.  Got it for $10 including priority shipping.


    My web friend / hired hand has it at his house.   I believe it's a Panasonic brand pad.  It has both an input and output for daisy chaining.


    He knows how to use a soldering gun and the general concept of pad hacking.  He just needs a specific diagram of where A B C L R P X ground and voltage go.


    That's exactly 9 pins.  I assume you need the pcb for daisy chaining to work.  Otherwise you can use a multi console PCB like Cthulhu, PS360+, or brook retro.


    A fiagram eith sokder points is good.



  14. I bought and successfully installed atariage user nurmix's external extension cords for Intellivision.


    Any hope for exercisers for the Odyssey 2 hardwired edition or the Emerson Arcadia 2001?  


    I heard Odyssey uses nine pin, and can use the same joysticks is Atari 2600.  (Don't know if I believe it ).


    My Odyssey to control looks like it has a lot of sliding room, therefore it could possibly be analog.  


    What would one do to have a custom  joystick work for the Emerson?  My custom joystick used for fighting games has 18 input pins, 18 ground pins, and 1 voltage pin in a db37.


    Am I right there are only four directions one action button mirror on both sides and 12 keypad buttons for a total of 17 inputs?  Or is the disc more like an intellivision having 16 way control?  



  15. How do you solve the problem of a lack of 3D TVs?  Do exactly what Sega did,. Instead of  selling separate TVs. Make a device which turns ordinary 2D TVs into 3D TVs.  It works for surround sound systems like Dolby and DTS.


    Sega technologies probably now public domain as far as patents are concerned.  So anyone could turn a 2d  TV into a 3D tv.


    2 problems.  the first was that broadcast standards that will push for the 2012 and 2013 Super Bowl worst side by side half, which though technically broadcast to go on ATSC, anyone who didn't have a 3D TV would have a coded picture it's not natural.  it's not like scrambled satellite but you'll have to quit images side-by-side that are thin.


    The format they sure use for TV was alternate frames.  Since a lot of TV shows broadcast in 30 frames anyway, an ATSCs minimum is 60 frames per second, yet some retro channels have a 30 frames per second mode, so there should be a new standard called 30 frames per second x 2 eyes.  On a normal 2dtv it would read 30 frames per second with the dominant eye always being first.  It would just ignore the X 2 eye tag, just like TVs ignored Dolby 5.1 surround if nothing understands it. Or closed captioning.  


    but if one does have a decoder then there be a second frame buffer for the alternate frame because TV compression works on neighboring panels and neighboring frames it doesn't do skip-neighboring frames, and it would give left and right frames is altering frames.


    And best of all no one has to go out and buy a new TV just to get 3D or compromised on what TV to buy just to get 3D.  It works for big and small TVs,  expensive and cheap TVs, 1080P and 4K TVs, highly processed or low ping TVs, any brand, you could even add it to your existing 2D so you don't have to wait for your TV to be broken before you can get 3D.


    I'm talking to a few television stations Cleveland to see if we could try this 2D friendly 3D standard.  Because 3D TV went downhill once people realize broadcasting in 3D would ruin it for 2D viewers.


    an active shutter base system would work but there's only one problem which I think I saw and that's getting the syncher to sync with the TV.  To do so.  you have to capture either the display or something indicating the timing after it comes out of the TV after processing.  I assume that it could send an inaudible signal through audio, kind of like Dolby information.  and even though most TVs don't have video out every TV HDTV has audio out, whether Arc or left/right out or toslink out or coaxial out. And that audio is synched with video.


    Even though I like shutter based systems, mainly because tilting your head a little bit on polarize displays causes partial depolarization, which causes double vision,which causes confusion,  which causes headaches, it's cheaper to get a polar system...


    As long as it's built into the TV.  Imagine trying to polarize any HD screen of any size of any ratio and having the exact line lineup side-by-side alternate pixels?  Betty crazy you need to hire a professional and buy a specific part for a specific TV.


    Another might be a different polar solution which I call Active polar.  If it was some way you could switch the polarization in front of the TV, a shield in front of the TV. That alternates left polarity/right polarity. Then you could add cardboard glasses for like less than a dollar a piece I have a party.


    I still can't solve the issue of simultaneous 3D and 2D viewers.  Except that 2D viewers have to either going to active simulview mode or wearing passive unifilter glasses.


    Finally just like all DVDs and blu-rays have Dolby stereo and or DTS shouldn't 3D movies have a combo 2D 3D disc?  the only problem with them currently is that they don't solve the issue of always focusing on the dominant eye of the director.  two separate standards alternate frames l and alter frames are will respectfully have the left and right frame as the first of the pair.

    • Confused 1

  16. It's true.  When a player is dinimant, like Atari 260o or NES. the company name is the name of a product.  Like when I said  i needed to withdraw $400 for s Switch, Zelda BOTW, and Switch Bimberman, Mom asked why wiould you pay $300 for a Switch, my brother hsd yi say "It's a Mario (even though there was no Mario gsme at the time, but that's the best way to get it in a 70+ year old's head who can't hear well is to call it "A Mario"). If I were to explain a PS5 or Xbox Scarlet, to her  it would a different brand of Mario.


    Mattel pioneered this tactic with George Plimpton Intellivision ads.


    If Pepsi didn't have a built in audience of blacks in the South, who I assume were refused Coke, they wouldn't be a co-equal brand to Coke, and would be unable to grow from there.  Yes, Pepsi has a competitor's previous racist perception ( intentional or not)  to thank for its start.


    Mattel people said,:"Before there was one question. It was 'Should I buy a video gane system?'.  We added a second question, which is 'If i want a video game system,which system should I buy?'.".  When you're a monolith, you are just selling ganes   Where you're facing a monolith, you ate selling YOUR AS OPPOSED TO THEIRS.


    in the INTV/Coleco/5200/Vectrex era where the 2600, Odyssey 2, and Astrocade still had sections in Electronics Boutique and were actively still being advertised,  the companies were selling ganed more than systems.  Coleco put eggs in the 2600 and INTV baskets.  Matell had the M Network label fir the 2600 and Atarisoft nade Atari games for INTV, Colecovision, and non-Atari computers.  Sega didn't have that luxury.  They had to "license NES rights for Sega arcade/ SMS games" to Tengen, (another name for one of 2 companies named Atari) in order to make NES games.

  17. 4 hours ago, Flojomojo said:

    Sounds like you really want Genesisn't to happen. 

    I didn't want it to happen, but I was wondering if both Sega and competitors were thinking about Genesisn't as a comeback and had strategues about.


    Like did Nintendo comtemplated it for 1 minute and thought "we'd be called copycats, unoriginal, etc.  Not a way to appeal to the Sega audience.  Not worth it," and threw it out.


    Was Sega hoping a hypothetical Genesisn't campaign would the cheese in a mouse trap that Sega could leverage if the bait was taken? (Thinking like chess, anticipating a reaction move, and assuming you're correct, you either take a big piece or get in good position to set up checkmate.)

  18. I kind of figured sone european ad campaigns sound better and are more catchilyy written natively in one language, and very hard to keep the double entendre ( mot all double entendres are dirty ones) intact.  Noticed I only used 3 international examples. UK, Austalia, and New Zealand, because both the government language, and the most spoken language by the people, is English (with each nation, and even regions or classes having a specific sub language/ dialect.)


    I know by studying German at a high school level and comparing the original English of a Peter Gabriel CD in the original English and translated Gernan that a one-to-one literal translation does not make a good song.  You have to find clever ways to convey basically the same message and have it sound right in a song.  Thankfully German is a less "word order based" language than English.  It's heavy on cases to state gramnatical purposes.


    Noticed I used 3 English based examples that could have done a Nintendon't ad, and no nations with a different first language.  I know Nintendon't wouldn't translate well in German, so odds are it's uniquely English Language phenonenom.

  19. Just like Sega was trying to be not Nintendo. Nintendo was trying to be Nintendo.  Nintendo's only real effective anti Sega ad was the one that put the nail in the coffin for the Genesis, the Donkey Kong Country "not for add-ons, not for CDs, not for Sega" ad.  At least 3/4 of the commercial is just footage of the game Donkey Kong Country. 


    If Sega was succeeding being not Nintendo, then why would Nintendo want to try to be not Nintendo.  The field is already crowded.


    That's probably true  if someone else made a Genesisn't add, it would not win over any Sega Genesis fans. Over 99% would think it's fake, or me-too.


    And on top of that, genuine Nintendo fans would say, "If I'd want a Sega, I'd buy a Sega."  Exactly one of the criticisms of New Coke.


    So you're saying, Sega probably thought if Sega made Nintebdon't, its sheer existence would neuter a Genisin't canpaign as a copycat if used elsewhere.


    But you did say McDonalds took out "defensive legal protection", in other words, owning stuff that would wound them, so no one else can wound them legally.


    Sega just thought the Copycat label they could use would be enough of a deterrent.




  20. 48 minutes ago, Tursi said:

    Close... but copyright only protects works, not ideas. Flipping around the Genesis advertising campaign wouldn't be a copyright infringement unless they used parts of the original work. Now, it might run afoul of other protections. ;)


    The super over-simplified summary:


    Copyright - works, meaning something that has been created. In the US, automatic without registration. No defense or activity required to be valid. Lasts longer than your lifespan.

    Patent - ideas. Limited duration. Must be registered. Must be the first. Can be invalidated for many reasons.

    Trademark - phrases, words or images that represent a company or product. Must be called out but need not be registered. Scope limited to the reasonable market. Must be active and must be defended.


    The usages of these over the years has made them all fairly complicated, and sometimes they seem to bleed over into each others spaces these days. Lawyers can do anything. ;)


    Okay I'm I never took any pre-law classes in college,. And I don't know the exact technical terms.  And I know lawyers like to smear terms by putting them in Greek or Latin, like caveat emptor ( that and quid pro quo are probably the 2 most common latin pharses that  non Latin speakers understand, just due to popular use.)


    As I said I probably wouldn't know what avenue to take.  but probably someone at Sega, I presume, ask the question about  what if someone made a Genesisn't campaign how do we protect against that?  Probably Sega of America went to their lawyers and asked "is a protection built-in? Can we register something as a protection? Or if we put this out, would we expose ourselves to such attack?"


    Likewise Nintendo could have asked their laeyers, "okay we know the perfect answer for Nintendon't.  How about the Genesisn't campaign? Is that legal?"


    I just wanted to know if a Sega thought of that internally before releasing the Nintendon't,  campaign?  Were they adequately protected or they just lucky!  Also did any competitor think of Genesisn't until their lawyer said "No that's not a good idea."


    Even the Angry Video Game Nerd,  when he was a child from his mother's and father's home videos was trying to come up with his anti Sega campaign children always think about,  and but couldn't quite exactly think that.  Adult Nerd said  "Kid, the words you're looking for are 'Super Nintendo is with Genesisn't' "


    By the way the rest of the world outside the USA, you might (/might not) have had something similar with "Megadrive does what Nintendon't".  It could have been used in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and other English-speaking Nations,   and they could not be as easily attacked because the name is Mega Drive a much harder name to turn into a negative, unlike Genesis which could become Genesisn't.  (Nega Drive perhaps).  It probably wasn't used outside America.  I'm not sure if other languages have that easy of a translation that's that witty.  I don't know whether Sega of Europe wanted to have an individual campaign for each language represented or one trans-European campaign.


    But for a lay man who never took a formal high School level introduction to law class, I asked a perfectly legitimate question that I can't seem to find anywhere else on the internet.  If I thought of Genesisn't, the kid AVGN was thinking about a reversal of  Nintendon"t, but his adult self corrected him, then there's probably other people who thought of that including people that say go trying to protect the Nintendon't campaign, as well as competitors trying to attack it.


    Or am I that brilliant that if I was on team Nintendo and 20 years older I could have suggested Genesisn't as a campaign for Nintendo?  Was every advertising decision maker at Sega and their competitors dumber than a kid 20 years younger?


    Ibcertainly hope the answer is no.  I hope Sega was smart enough to ask that question.  I hope Nintendo was considering pulling that trigger.  If both sides were that dumb,. and all I did was just played around with it like a junior high student would, then the Great American Console Game died with Atari Mattel and Coleco.  That's why most of our games come from Japan now.


    Yes there were anerican third parties like Midway, but I can't think of any American corporations organically creating their own games other than Midway.  Or at least if they did, not as proficiently is Midway did.


    So Tursi, did I do decent for someone with no law schooling?  And do any insiders have any information about Genesisn't campaign that wasn't. Was it thrown out five minutes after it was proposed,. Or was someone trying to actively find a legal way to do it without violating other laws?


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