ledzep

Dammit, hahaaha, just saw this thread. Of course. Well, if you're ever in the mood to go through this again, I'd be up for a keyboard.

I don't suppose there's a source code dump for that thing, hahaaha. Imagine a dedicated controller that sort of looks like that game (side buttons, paddle) that would play a 5200 cartridge version of that group of games. Niche on top of niche!

I'm sure it isn't really complicated but can you describe how that is done? I might have to buy Video Pinball if that's the case.

That's not what I meant, I was saying that porting Atari Football (and Baseball) to the 5200 would be easier because the controller was analog and it includes a keyboard so that you can "hide" your play picks, something that would be tough to do playing on an Atari 8-bit computer (unless sportsmanship allows for players to turn their heads while their adversaries choose their plays on the computer keyboard) unless it was the 4-port Atari 800 so that each player would get 2 controllers, the joystick (or Trak-ball) and the keyboard controller. But that would screw a lot of A8 owners who only had 2 controller ports so probably a no-deal. That's if the source code exists in the first place. As far as I know there's no port of either arcade game to anything out there.

I assume the source code for these games must be available somewhere. They're probably too old to have been 6502 code, right? I wonder if there's a way to convert them to something "normal" like 6502 assembler or whatever so that they could be ported to the 5200. It would be easier than porting to the A8 computers, although wouldn't it be cool to have 2 players that used 2 controllers each, the joystick (or a CX22 Trak-ball) and the Keyboard controller in order to hide what plays were being selected (4-port Atari 800 only so, not ideal).

Possibly, but I could see where the delay would be minimal, like a month or less. I would guess that a system that wasn't so hard to program and resulted in games that actually looked like what was advertised would be a plus for the game publishers, they could brag about how their library of games were the best. No more blocks moving around other blocks and having everything flicker when too much shit was on the screen, people tended to blame the game more than the console when that happened (since most games didn't flicker). I bet even Vectrex games could eventually have been ported (same controller type) though the vector graphics would suffer.

Having Activision clone their 2600 games to the 5200 and only updating the graphics didn't help, either. I mean, at least offer a new option that the 2600 version didn't have! Higher difficulty level or extra obstacles or whatever. I did appreciate that 5200 versions of some 2600 games were "done right"er, meaning the Trak-ball games actually worked right now with the analog joystick (better) or the Trak-ball itself (best) instead of the inadequate digital joystick. Ya, the arcade game pic is cute, but what if the game is an original idea, not an arcade port? Now what? I liked the 5200's box art scheme, I just wish they had varied the colors to distinguish between shooters or space games or sports games or whatever. I will say I'm a bit biased in that area, I cannot stand those modern games with artwork that completely wraps around the box, no borders or frames or anything. I never cared about the arcade port having an actual image of the arcade game cabinet, either, I only cared if the game played accurate enough. I mean, I knew the home versions would never be 100%, I just wanted them to be close enough. Ya, that was a dumb move, Atari should have insisted on a 2-way exchange. They should have also gotten Activision, CBS, Imagic, SEGA, etc., to release new games on the 5200 first, then maybe on the 2600 if the game would work well enough.

I was also an arcade/video game console junkie in 1982, I would have bought 5200 Atari Football in a heartbeat. But I agree that many gamers would have rolled their eyes at a '70s arcade game being converted to a new "modern" console... like Space Invaders (1978), Asteroids (1979), Galaxian (1979), Super Breakout (1978), etc., right? Maybe not, I don't remember complaints about '70s conversions (except maybe for Super Breakout being the pack-in game). There were lots more converted to the 2600 of course since it was more primitive and came first, but they sold very well, too, such as Circus (1977), Pong (1972), Drag Race (1977), Sprint 2 (1976), Tank (1974), Jet Fighter (1975), Night Driver (1976), etc., even in the '80s from what I remember in terms of buying my own games. The Realsports titles weren't that much better in terms of the sports themselves, they just had blocky players instead of simpler shapes. The sports fans I knew preferred accurate sports representations vs. good looking games that skimped on the game rules. Even in the '80s, Atari Football was popular in arcades (when you could find one). Certainly more colorful games, vector games, more complicated games were getting most of the quarters. Even so, people were still playing Asteroids and Lunar Lander and Tail Gunner and Galaxian and Sea Wolf and Star Fire and Starhawk and Space Wars in arcades, the only issue in that sense was that many of those cabinets would be removed in smaller arcades to make room for the new games coming in. But the bigger arcades that could hold more games still had some of those older games around (thank Odin) because they didn't stop being great, fun games simply because another year had passed. As much as I loved the newer games I still wanted to play the older games, too. But even in 1982, most games were still current or barely old, like Defender (1981), Missile Command (1980), Qix (1981), Centipede (1981), Battlezone (1980), Rally-X (1980), Rip-Off (1980), Scramble (1981), Star Castle (1980), Gorf (1981), Wizard Of Wor (1980), Solar Fox (1981), Omega Race (1981), Astro Blaster (1981), Berzerk (1980), Tempest (1981), Bosconian (1981), Asteroids Deluxe (1981). Don't tell me those games were light years ahead of the late '70s games. A little more detailed, sure, but back then I couldn't tell which game was newer than the other based only on how they played. Ok, maybe Space Invaders was noticeable along with the truly older ones like Night Driver and Tank. I don't think I ever saw a Tank in an arcade. I do remember Blasto (1978), now that was a game made for the 2600.

Ya, always swipe across up, never go down (into the pinch). That took a few times for sure. But also, they were so heavy that I got burst blood vessels occasionally if I played too long, just ruined hands, hahaaha. The 5200 Trak-ball would have been much less painful.

If anything, Atari Football (and Baseball) might have generated more Trak-ball sales (and repairs, hahaha). The 5200 version could have added crowd animation (I would have programmed a bunch of Fs as fans in stands bouncing around or waving pendants or whatever). Maybe even include a roving R as a referee, who knows. They could have had fun porting it to the 5200.

Super Breakout disagrees with you, hahaaha, but I do agree that those games were especially simplistic graphically for the new console (and I assume they wanted the 5200 to look like was doing things decidedly non-2600 as far as visuals go). Even so, it was mostly an arcade port system and those games were arcade games. And Atari Football is a late '70s game (1978) and Atari Baseball is from 1979 so I wouldn't say that they looked terrible compared to other late '70s games, it's not like they came out in the '60s or anything. And the Football game at least was popular as hell when I was going to arcades. Again, I don't think I ever laid eyes on a Baseball game (or Atari Soccer).

I know that the Atari 5200 advertised the Real Sports games and they were cool but I'm really surprised that, considering the analog stick + keyboard (and later, the magnificent Trak-ball) that they never converted their older arcade sports games, specifically Atari Baseball, Atari Football, and Atari Soccer since those games utilized the analog trak-ball controller and had buttons for preset plays. That seems like it would have been stupid easy to adapt to the 5200. I think the Football and Soccer versions also had 4-player versions of the cabinets? I know it would be pretty expensive to have 2 (or 4!) Trak-ball controllers for the 5200 just to play those games but the joysticks would have been good enough, probably, and the keypads would have lent themselves perfectly for the play selections. Maybe they thought the games looked too primitive and they left that style to the 2600, which had no hope of recreating the look and play of these games without loads of flickering, probably. As a Trak-ball controller fan I'm biased, obviously, but I would have loved to have had a home version of Atari Football, especially one that wouldn't have ruined my hands with those giant trak-balls, hahaaha. And the Baseball version which I've never played. They could have added basic colors to the game for the field and the team colors (with an option for classic vivid black and white). But keep the Xs and Os for the Football game!

Ya, I know it's tiny. I'm saying if they had the plan from the beginning to add the capability for the carts then maybe they make the Mini around the size of the Flashback 2 so if you want to add a cartridge slot, you can. Or add an external one that could plug into a SIO port... which would also be a secret mod that the emulator would recognize. You could say the same thing about the 2600, most people today probably play 2600 games on emulators so they'd just want SD card support. It's for the collector who wants the "complete" version of the new console, however many there might be. And it's not like it would cost anything, just have the code be there and have the physical hooks on the motherboard be there. The rest is up to the modder. I'm just thinking about something that would make some potential buyers say "Wait, you can do that? I need to get one of those those!". Maybe nobody does it. But you can't tell me you haven't seen videos of people who mod various devices to do extra things because they figured out that it's possible if you have the time and can get certain parts.

I think that would be a smart move, a "secret" option that only the cool kids know about. Leave the functionality in there and let it be known that if you want to void the warranty, there's a way to add the correct cartridge reader (like the Flashback 2 has) if you can find the parts and know how to solder or whatever. Most people won't, some will, some others will offer the conversion service for a fee. Something like this 400 Mini would be extra cool because it would need to handle at least 2 cartridge readers, yes? The 8-bit computer version and the 5200 version? I think that would generate more demand for the consoles. I'm comparing to things like the Tempest game for the Jaguar that had spinner code added in so that if someone was in the mood he could adapt a spinner to the controller. Or those older Playstations that were designed to accept other OSs like Linux. Most people don't care, they don't want to risk bricking their machine by hacking it up. But a few would take the challenge and wind up with a better system.

I know I'm missing something because I'm not big into physical emulation (meaning buying/building a droid specifically to emulate an old console vs. software on a PC), but what's so fucking hard about including a cartridge port that can read the actual cartridges and play them? I mean, if it's emulating (for example) an Atari 400, doesn't the emulation have to include that part of the motherboard anyway? It must be emulating the rest of it, the POKEY sound or ANTIC chip or whatever, I would think that the cartridge port code would come "free" with the rest of the emulation of the hardware. I'm sure I'm confusing myself with the Atari Flashback 2 that was more or less an exact functional duplicate of the old 2600 that didn't actually include a cartridge port but was designed to accept one. Couldn't a 400 Mini (or a 2600+) do the same thing? If you don't want it, don't use/add it, but I don't understand how you can say you're emulating something but then not emulate a key part of it. I assume there would be no way to physically add 9-pin ports to this thing, much less an SIO connector. I'm not even saying I am demanding such functionality, but I would welcome it. And, again, I don't understand how if you're emulating the rest of the hardware that you'd skip some of the capability. Even if it's not offered, at least have the possibility on the board for it.

Ah, well, all of them are going to seem equally obscure to you since you didn't grow up with them and only really know the most popular ones that have been porn a hundred times. The obscure games are going to be harder to find in the first place. I assume then that you are playing all those games with the same controller on the same console or whatever? Do you live near an arcade, some of those newer pay a set fee to play for an hour types?

Most of them are, or can be, really good. Is there a specific type of arcade game you like to play? For example, I'm not a fan of platformers for the most part so Donkey Kong type games do nothing for me. On the other hand I love all vector games. So either it's "play everything!" or sort of start in one or two areas so you don't get overwhelmed. I will say, if you can find the time (and trip expense), get to an arcade expo. That's the best way to play a lot games all at once on the proper hardware. Because some games will be night & day different to you if you're playing them with the correct controllers (trak-ball, analog joystick, buttons) vs just playing the MAME version (or a port) with a gamepad, it might be the difference between you kind of liking a game and thinking it's your favorite. Once you play Major Havoc, for example, with the proper roller controller, all the other versions suck. Playable with a spinner or trak-ball, but frustrating. Once you play Missile Command with the big trak-ball and 3 fire buttons, most ports suck in comparison. I think going to something like California Extreme (or a closer equivalent, the Portland Retro Gaming Expo is also good though I've yet to attend) would be the best way for you to start out since you say those games are before your time so you never experienced them the way they were intended. It would do you well to get the first impressions from the actual arcade versions. I'm spoiled in that sense, I was in high school when most of that crap appeared so I played (almost) everything in the arcades first. But I still want to play them more, hahaaha.

I like to collect PDFs of arcade game manuals, specifically finding the best versions which usually means full-color covers (usually the scans are also better as well). Taito didn't make a lot of games that I thought were great but I do have a few. Besides Space Invaders I found Elevator Action, Front Line, Lock N Chase, Polaris (loved that game), Qix (another favorite), Space Dungeon (a great 5200 port), so at least those things exist. I haven't really looked for historical documentation for those games but I think there are Wikipedia pages for most of those. Or are you saying that KLOV or similar don't mention those games? Because I see them there, too.

Dammit, I totally fell asleep on this (+ low on funds back then). Is there any way to get a cardboard box version of this still? I really don't like the clamshell boxes.

I'm on the opposite end, I think. I am collecting but I'm "behind", meaning I want/"need" more stuff, mostly 5200, Vectrex and 2600. On the 2600 I have long since decided that trying to collect everything for it is insane, but I want to have "enough" to have a little more than what I had as a kid. Part of that is mentally kicking myself for throwing away the boxes for most of those games (my brother owns our original gear, I'm buying replacements for myself). Part of it is time travel, seeing/playing those games puts me back in the '70s/'80s for a brief time. What I've learned to do is look for games (usually the Sears Telegames versions of the 2600 stuff) and, just sort of stare at them (the auctions). I leave the auctions up, go back a few times. I know it sounds weird but some times it's enough, I just need to look at the game and, if it's not that great of a game and I didn't really want it back when I was a kid, then looking at an auction for the boxed CIB version for $40.00 is good enough, I'm not going to pay that much for that game just because it's "part of a set" of the old-school Atari shit. On the other hand, certain games, I'm getting them goddammit. But not at $80.00 or whatever. So I keep looking, browsing through the listing. Also the For Sale area on AtariAge. Once in a while, bingo, I get some cool shit for a justifiable amount of money. I got all 3 of the Sears exclusive 2600 games (Steeplechase, Submarine Commander, Stellar Track) for very reasonable money, now on eBay they're too expensive. This is of course taking forever but, again, forcing myself to wait for the right price sometimes gets me to the point of asking, why am I even trying to get that game? I didn't even care about it when it was new, knock it off. Those weaker games are going to be what the Harmony cart is for. But I do still want some specific gear (I need some keyboard controllers, for example) because you can't simulate that. I want a CIB Sears Race game, big box with the Driving controllers and everything else. The 5200 and Vectrex, "thankfully", were never that popular so "collecting everything" isn't nearly so daunting or expensive. Again, certain games are lame, don't care. On the other hand I'm also more interested in homebrews because those two systems look much better than whatever the 2600 could pull off. But, "thankfully", it's not like 50 homebrews show up per year, either, so it's manageable. Also, legitimately thankfully, I don't give a crap about newer systems, not even the first Playstation or any Nintendo stuff, so thou$ands saved there, hahaahaha. Ok, I do want an XBox so I can play Steel Battalion but that's Money and I can wait.

Yes, there are people making 3rd party overlays for some games that never got them. Something that looks like the it came from the old Sea Wolf arcade game would be cool. I suppose a box and manual would be asking too much.

Oooh, I have #12, I wonder how many hundreds of dollars mine is worth? Odd wording in the eBay description, they keep calling it a "console", not a cartridge. "This limited edition Atari 5200 video game console is a must-have for any serious collector. Featuring the classic game Gauntlet, this console is a rare find that is sure to impress. With its sleek design and high-quality graphics, it offers a truly immersive gaming experience. The console is in excellent working condition and comes complete with all the necessary cables and accessories. Whether you're a lifelong fan of Atari or just starting to explore the world of vintage gaming, this console is a great choice. So why wait? Add it to your collection today! This is a ultra rare game that was created in limited quantities." Seems like a lazy cut-and-paste job.

Hahaha, I've heard that many times over the years, who needs a paddle (or trak-ball) when the joystick is just as good. I usually ask, would you rather drive an actual car with a steering wheel or a joystick? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say he'd rather have the joystick for turning.

I see it the opposite way, it's wrong to group all of them together like they were all playing with the same deck. Modern ports and console games stand on the shoulders of giants, they wouldn't be what they are without those first stabs at getting it right (and missing, sometimes wildly) in the '80s and '90s with those crap systems and lack of original source material or programming techniques. It's like comparing modern Dodge Challengers and Ford Mustangs with '70s versions, except for the looks the originals with their antiquated parts and systems would fail every performance comparison test. But the originals are still better dammit, hahaaha, so not a perfect analogy. Every arcade game's "best" port will usually be the most recent one made because now those programmers have so many more resources available, there are so many previous attempts to learn off of, it's actually a failure for them to get anything wrong at this point since there are zero hardware limitations compared to the arcade games by now. But back in the day? To get any version of an arcade game onto those primitive systems was a triumph, getting close with so much less!! You definitely need qualifiers, which is why many of these discussions group the winners into eras, as they should. Favorites is another matter, I love the 2600 version of Space Invaders even though it's very far from the original. I'm also a big proponent of using the correct controllers, that's half the actual goddamn game, your interface with the port. Obviously joystick games are easy to convert, but I prefer buttons for button games (Asteroids), trak-balls for trak-ball games (Missile Command), spinners for spinner games (Tempest), paddles for paddle games (Warlords), rollers for roller games (Major Havoc), analog joysticks for analog joystick games (Tail Gunner), combinations being the most difficult to replicate (Defender, Star Trek: SOS, Tron) etc. Would you play tennis with a baseball bat? Would you play football wearing ice skates? Same shit, don't even pretend it's not as important as the rest in terms of "best port". I fucking hate using 4-way gamepads for arcade ports that never used those abominations. Which is why I appreciate the efforts of such things as trak-ball hacks for 2600 games like Missile Command, still not a great port but closer with the right gear. I think it's funny and sad that the early consoles made the most effort to offer some of the correct controllers. The 2600 had driving (non-free spinning spinner) controllers! And also paddles and keypads, the aftermarket supplied a buttons controller, too. The 5200 had the greatest trak-ball ever made along with the ability to have paddles (straightforward hardware hack). Both the Vectrex and the 5200 had analog joysticks. It's a travesty that modern systems that are really expensive (meaning buyers are already accepting high prices) would not even offer anything more than gamepads that have analog thumbsticks. I would want a collection of arcade ports to come with a dedicated controller, too. Like group a bunch of trak-ball games together and include a trak-ball with 6+ buttons, a bunch of spinner games with a spinner controller with 6+ buttons, etc. Honorable mention, since it's not an arcade port (unless you consider Virtual World Battletech an arcade game, which I do) but Steel Battalion for the XBox, I would love to see someone port that to an old SNES and get it to be playable with a gamepad, haahaha. I still want to track one down (and an XBox, obviously) just to have that ridiculous controller and play that game. I'm really surprised there wasn't a way to make that game work on later XBox consoles with an adapter for the controller. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_Battalion https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech_Centers

Ya, it's interesting to see how people interpret "best port". I'm a big vector graphics fan so most of my favorite arcade ports will be on the Vectrex because screw raster displays, hahaaha, but that was because back in the day any vector ports would be on horribly unqualified 8/16-bit systems. With modern displays and MAME you can almost get away with not having a vector display (you can't, to say otherwise is madness, but you can fool yourself for a few minutes, hahaaha). I would add Space Wars on the Vectrex, not only because it is pretty close (I know, wrong screen orientation, etc.) but because it has at least some shitty A.I. so it's possible to play 1-player, impossible with the arcade version.