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Everything posted by Gorf

  1. Ok so we now have CD sized shit for games...that's just great. The 020 would GREATLY...I repeat...GREATLY improve not only the performance of the system but also the ability to create games A LOT faster. I think Im getting the point just fine...it is you who seems to have trouble getting your head around the obvious advantages of an 020 over a CD ROM. I'll try one more time....The GPU /DSP and 020 running in PARALLEL OFF THE BUS, while the blitter and OPL have the bus most of the time would do MUCH more for a game than a CD ever could. The add on was fine...it was the sytem that was the problem. N64 did quite well with a cart based system long after the Jag came along.
  2. How about porting the AI to game to the 020 being a lot faster and then you'd have much better games at lauch because you did not have to write everything in assembler? My appologies. I forget you keep missing the obvious.
  3. Yeah it would run half the bit rate per read/write...that's brilliant. Lets waste 32 bits just to save two cycles every page brake. OY!
  4. Here Here! I'll drink to that( and I dont usually drink at all...)
  5. No because eiher way you are dealing with DRAM. So one way would not be any much beter than the other way running from main. And like I said a 13 mhz EC020 woudl still be better than a GPU doing both rendering and game logic and AI. At least with the 020 you will be off the bus most of the time and would have no need for a seperate bus on the 020 thanks to the 020's cache which for some strange reason you think is useless. Three processors running in parallel OFF THE BUS is always better than two trying to handle everything...even in paralelle off the bus. And puts the burden on two risc's where an 020 with two risc's all capable of staying off the bus most of the time would be far better. Three heads are better than two. Again...it's not that the 68k is a bad prcessor but because it MUST take over the bus when operating, it completely chokes the system. A 68k with a 64k private RAM would have been a great idea since the blitter would only need to pump in data to it rarely, keeping it off the bus. It's not about which processor so much but which processor has the ability to stay off the bus...the 68k dont, and 020 would and a dual risc only system would not be nearly as efficient as three processors that could stay off the bus while running in parallel most of the time...not matter how you slice it the 020 would have been the cheapest and best alternative allowing a large jump in performance in both dev time and poly counts and no need to waste the two RISC for AI and game logic. At best you could use the DSP for nice fast floats and still maintain a rockin sound system, allowing the 020 to simply use the DSP here and ther for some floating point results.
  6. How would you add a local cache to an already seal chip? Moding the Jag as it was designed is kind of useless.
  7. No rubbish is you forgetting me showing you the price of a 2x CD rom back then was at best a $99 dollar cost to Atari (and that is being very consevative) since they went for $199. And single speed and garbage to boot. I dont care how many more components it had it would not come close to performing as well as the Cd add-on did. Yes making the DSP cost that much more to produce so either was you still are looking at $400.
  8. Then you obviously do not understand the blitter very well either. Even with a DRAM page breaks its a much more efficient means of moving data even externally. Hardly. The blitter's is a much more able chip than you obviously know.
  9. Yes there was a c compiler and running from main was the very least of it's problems. Clearly you never bothered to use it or you'd know just how absolutely horrible it was. As far as using the 68k at all versus movei's....I'l take the movei's anyday even out in main. Yeah but the 020 which would run off the bus already had tools therefore not costing Atari any money in dev time.
  10. The original tombraider on PSX didn't use any at all, ad thus had terrible "fish eye" warping problems. (not sure if th eSaturn was better in this respect) I think TRII utilized subdivided affine mapping to address the warping to some degree. Most sony games were plagued by the horrible hardwired affine texturing of the PS1. Again, the at a lower poly count and slower frame rates, the Jag Texturing was superior.
  11. The machine would only be choked by using the 68k in a game's loop. The entire bus structure is 64 bits wide. The 68k did not squeeze the bus down, it choked it. An 020 instead of a 68k would have given Sony problems. sure the Sony would still be a bit more robust in terms of poly count but the game logic and AI as well as many other features on the Jag would be superior. REAL 3D hardware back then would make the Jaguar cost $500 or more dollars. Still better than the 3DO but hardly a power without the price offering. Someone other than the Tramiels at the helm might have seen the REAL beauty of the T&J chipset and designed a much more efficient system around them....even with a 68k...one with a seperate bus with it's own 64k of RAM to keep it off the main bus most of the time while the REAL work horses(J-RISCS, BLitter and OPL) could have the bus most of the time.) Shit...Let the 68k stay with a seprate bus where only the blitter need to write to it and the Jag would have been a much better system. The 68k then could run in parallel doing AI and game logic, writing to a specific area that the blitter could grab for the J-RISC to operate off of. As it stands, everything comes to a screaching halt while that blasted host CPU is running. Sorry indeed.
  12. the carts yes...the system however would have cost you $400. Agreed on the tools except for an SDK with the sources. 32-X was Sega's 'operation spoiled sport" until the got the Saturn out the door.
  13. Yeah which is much closer to 0.7 mips/mhz not 0.5 mip/mhz. that later fugure is one you'd expect from a novice J-RISC coder and worse.
  14. Wikipedia? I could just assuredly ignore the rest of this post based on that alone...not to mention everything else you have posted in the past....it's all making sense now. ...but seriously folks.... You extrapolated horribly wrong then and I can do much better than 0.7 MIPS/MHZ by hand. If you are using a ton of movei's you should probably stick to 68k. There are other ways to obtain immediate data with the GPU. This entire statement is ridiculous simply based on the fact that there is no C compiler for the GPU/DSP ( one that is worth bothering with that is) since assembly is the only route to go with the two RISC's. Hand tuned assembly should be the only way you bother coding the Jaguar RISC's until someone actually writes a real optimized compiler. In bulk, I doubt very much more at all. I belive a 25 mhz EC020 would have been more but in a half million units, very reasonable. My Jaguar would cost $349, admited but be worth every last penny in comparison. Still a much better deal over the 3DO and still much cheaper than a CD ROM drive built in. Even still, an EC020 under the 13 mhz clock would still be a grave improvment over the already obsolete, bus choking 68k . So no matter how you slice it the 020 in any for is a mjor leap over the out of place 68k. Agreed if the tools were there to deal with it. With that a no stall write back register file....true 26.59 mips. Bigger Local on the GPU and no MMU bug causing the main hiccups. Also a dual buffer blitter reg file. No more GPU wating on the Blitter and in reverse. Fix the DSP UART issues, the OPL and interrupt system bugs and we can agree.
  15. If the free SDK was the same tools, it would not make much of a difference at all. Now if they included all the sources for the tools that others could improve upon them, then yes.
  16. No, the real workhorses of the system(which is what matters), the OPL and the Blitter are true 64 bit processors. The GPU/DSP are 32 bits, which is more than you need for the game logic/AI/sound). The problem is the stupid idea to use a 16 bit host like the 68k. Lay off the host and the system will perfrom worthy of 64 bits. The other problem with this is the lack of tools to use the real workhorses. There was no stretch at all. The N64 had an INTERNAL 64 bit bus...the rest of it was 32 bits external, which to me is a real stretch of the truth.
  17. Gorf

    Telstar arcade roms ?

    They cant be dumped...not at least that I know of...they are actually microcontrollers with 512 words of ROM. Even if you could dump the ROM, you'd still need the MPS7600 system chip that does all the real work. The Arcade is simply an interface for the game system on cart...if you can understand that concept.
  18. It would be better to just take a T&J and redesign the system around it. But if you were going to bother just get an 030/040 or even better an 060 instead and then kick the clock of the T&J to 32 mhz. PS1 would get a serious ass whooping. It's would still do more polies but the Jag would then kick its tail in special effects...which the Jag already does .Sure the poly counts are lower but the quality is much more able due to the flexibility of the Bliter and not being hardwired to do a few things well...like the PS1's GPU....it is what it is and to escape that it then needs to use the MIPS to cover for the lack of the abilities of the GPU.
  19. First of all though a data cache would be an added extra, the instruction cache is REALLY what matters here and that alone would allow the 020 to run off the bus quite efficiently. You also miss(again) the obvious point and fail to mention the fact that we are not talking about a 13 mhz but a 26.59 mhz clock rate. Fail. Then you completely and constantly ignore the double bit width. Even The 68k with a 64 bit prefect would have made a more efficient effort. The obvious is that now the Blitter and the OPL have the Bus almost 85% of the time with two riscs and the host running instead of as is with two risc(one at half the bit width) and a 68k that ate up 85% of the bus could not run in parallel AT ALL. The two risc did not have caches at all. They had local RAM. So your point is moot and it's also very mis-informed. Properly coded your opinion of the risc's are wishful PS1 fanboy at best. The Jag Riscs with properly interleave code can do 0.75 to 1.00 MIPS per mhz. So real life and fact go much further than a tainted opinon. Also 020 at 26.59 x 0.2 = 5.32? funny since the 68k is doing about 1 MIPS at 8 mhz. So where you got these obviously false/flawed numbers from further shows your desperation to be right whenyou are wrong. Therefore the 13.29 hmz 68k was doing about 1.5 mips. So with that said, an 020 with a cache and twice the clock and twice the bit width should be doing a lot better than what you wish it to be...probably near 6 to 7 mips wich for game AI and logic is more than enough....many times more than useful and proven chips like the 68k/6502 and Z80 which were fine for their game logic.
  20. Yeah well he thinks an 020 would not help the Jag at all, so consider the source. Having an Idea of the specs means nothing. Jag with an 020 and the proper tools, Sony would not have had it as easy. But of course the ineptness of the Tramiel Atari never ceased to fail anyone.
  21. The Dreamcast kicked ass when it first came out, but its dominance was extremely short-lived. The PS2 almost immediately overshadowed it when it debuted. (Kind of a shame because the Dreamcast was nearly as powerful, but the PS2 was backwards compatible and could play DVDs which was a big deal in those days.) That would have been the optimal fate for the Jaguar. It would have ruled the roost briefly before the PS1 arrived and then got wiped off the stage. The Jaguar architecture (like the Saturn and 3D0) was optimized for 2D at a time when gamers really wanted to move to polygons. There is no way the Jag would have had a viable competitor to Ridge Racer and Toshinden. An insanely optimized Jag equivalent of those games would have either run at a jerky 15fps with limited textures or 30fps without. Well. I don't know man.. The PS2 took over the Dreamcast market share because of the PS1 You gotta remember, what did Sony had before the PS1? Nothing! I don't know a whole lot about the Jag, but I'll make the same sugestion I thought of when I first saw the PS1. Why oh Why, didn't they include some kind of 3D hardware acceleration? By 1993 3DFX had already developed the Voodoo chipset and was eager to push it somewhere... The Voodoo was about 500 dollars too. For it's time, nothing matched the Jaguar in terms of power and it had assisted 3D hardware. It was the first to use a blitter and a matrix multiply single instruction in hardware for a game console. To add that kind of 3D hardware at that time would have made the Jaguar cost about $500 as well.
  22. No problem. Disney huh? Some people have all the luck. Yeah a batari basic for the 7800 would be nice....Jag too.
  23. Once you are in the debugger, just type HELP, it has extensive built in help. Dan I took a look....could not figure out how to stop the code from running once you set it to go.
  24. To think I threw mine out years back thinking it was not worth anything. I understand that recently they have gone for some big bucks on E-whore.
  25. Well I dont things because 'everyone else is doing it' but I'm not trying to discourage JR at all. Im just giving him a bit a friendly insight on what could potential cause him some trouble and you must understand that I hate to see him get in any trouble. From what I can tell he's done a great job with it and that's never a bad thing. Bottom line is Im just letting him know how things were with my dealings with Midway. Not looking to be negative. It's not like I don't agree with the sentiment that these old classics are long forgotten and I too think, that just out of appreciation to fan loyalty over all these years, that these companies should consider letting the GP have them once and for all. However, until then I will tread lighty if at all on someone elses IP, mainly out of respect for someone elses property. Again..the do unto others thing and no disrespect toward JR at all.
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