Shaggy the Atarian
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Posts posted by Shaggy the Atarian
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14 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:
Yes, keeping a game that does poorly for a year or two sounds too long. Obviously, some of the games will be the worst performer even if all games are doing well to varying degrees. In which case it could make sense to keep them around for a bit. But if a game is doing $5 per week or something, it is a waste of space.
If they don´t lose much value, you could change videmption machines frequently. Or if they drop quickly in value, you could buy them used. They won´t make as much, but they would be cheaper, and better performing than what you would have had instead (ruling out ticket redemption).
For some added context, I did operate a second location from 2020-2022 in a city about 45 min. north of my original one; That did allow me to test out games but it's a long story...suffice it to say, I swapped where I could and did testing; I also have another location where we cycle games out (a private break room). That is where some heavy debt has accumulated, however. I opened the 2nd location as a "Plan B" to the FEC here, and everything seemed to be much better (better, more upscale mall - I was even next door to Victoria's Secret, no competition in the region). Failing there, does give me pause for moving out the mall and trying it out elsewhere - at least in this present condition and debt.
On keeping games, there's one other aspect that's a little odd - moving them around and seeing if things change. I've seen a game here and there make a huge jump in earnings by just moving it a few feet. Of course, you can't move them around every week. But in part, keeping certain games around for a while is to give them a chance. But, I have sold off quite a few games, did a video about that one.
The trade off of picking cheap used videmption games is that they tend to not be good earners to begin with. You can get lucky here and there, but in the process of operating multiple locations in the past, cycling games in and out is not as easy in practice as it is on paper.
QuoteI hear the machines that measure how hard you can punch are popular in bars. Maybe one of those would work in your place too.
Yeah, I have been looking into those - boxers, skeeball, kiddie games, certain merchandizers are all good ways to bolster business. At where things are at now, I probably won't be able to make some major changes until next year.
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8 minutes ago, Giles N said:
Your tokens?
Does each —cade have their own set of tokens used for their machines, or can any token be used on any Arcade machine anywhere?
Most arcades use RFID cards now - there are several companies out there that offer such a service of setting you up with branded cards, per machine readers, a router, a kiosk, a POS,etc. They allow you to do great deals and since no one really knows how many points they have on the card, they tend to overspend and you can't get a refund. They drive earnings up about 20-25% at a location, but they do have problems. If the server handling the requests goes down, none of your games can take a payment. This has recently been a huge issue with a company called Intercard, where their servers keep crashing and lots of locations can't make any money.
For those that still do tokens, you can get generic designs or a customized design on one or both sides. Depending on how much customization is done plus the material (zinc/copper, brass, nickel plated, plastic) will determine how much it costs.
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8 minutes ago, Giles N said:
It’s been ages and ages since I used a physical arcade cabinet; how does these tokens work?
Can you have a ‘VIP customer-deal’ where they get 5 credit tokens, or am I just way off how things interact here…?
(Last time I used a physical Arcade was in 2009, - or ‘08 -, playing House of the Dead 2 or 3, and one still could just use cash ‘n coins)
Is there any ‘movable’ or ‘changable’ element to how to provide/sell tokens to customers?
Just like it was back in the day - My tokens are worth 25¢ each, just buy what you want and put them into the machines as per what the game requires (1,2,3,4 tokens per play). I do something unusual too in that we do refunds for tokens (mainly to help us retain the coins, as we have thousands that end up walking out the door; It's also beneficial on taxes to have refunds).
People buy tokens in hand or from a change machine, pretty quick and simple process.
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That would be possible to do with a card system, or if we had an entry fee, but not with tokens in a mall.
I a strong sense though, the better game design that you have for the games, the more that draws people in.
I shared a video of a racing game I have that was my number #1 game last year. As I write this post, it's being played by a group of friends who are taking turns, rotating out. This doesn't happen with any other game I have in the arcade at this point. I attribute it to the overall design for that one - it's got more to it than just racing - tons of cars, tons of levels based on real world locations, a 60 level story line, ghost battles, special challenges, user titles, unlockable paint jobs and car parts, stamps, and King of the Track crowns that shows who dominates at the location. If every game was designed like Maximum Tune, then that would be something else, although it's not entirely feasible to do (depends on the game genre).
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2 minutes ago, Giles N said:
How many of your arcades, pinbalks and other machines are operated by cash or card per play?
How are these machines operated these days as to payment-method?
Most arcades out there use card systems to pay for games, thus the term "coin-op gaming" really doesn't apply anymore. I'm still on tokens though, where I charge between 1-5 tokens per play. Only game that's at 5 is Minecraft Dungeons, due to the collectible cards it vends. Otherwise, average charge is 2 tokens per game.
If I sound crazy for being so cheap, it's also because I have some competition in the area, NickelCade which is just a few blocks away, then Nickel Mania. Both of those places charge an entry fee, then nickels for the games themselves. Nickel Mania has a card system though and they do very well. Between them setting expectations for arcades being cheap, to FECs like the one down the hall, I try and find a middle range. Once I can get a card system though, that will help me not only make more but also find ways to do special deals to make it more enticing to come in.
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17 minutes ago, ledzep said:
Hahaha, that thing makes Dragon's Lair look like Star Raiders in terms of controlling the game. I don't know how young I'd have to be to want to play that game. Man, the crap you guys have to tolerate to make money, I sympathize.
If it makes you feel any better, my best earning game doesn't play itself for you or anything of the sort. While this isn't Gran Turismo, it does require more than "sit down, shut up and "have fun"" With this being a success, I'd say there is still hope out there
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1 hour ago, Lord Mushroom said:
I will try:
1) Get rid of the games that perform horribly. Use the free space to either get more modern games (for money) or more popular classic games (for more retro play). The latter typically means replacing games from the 80s with games from the 90s.
2) Get Pac-Man´s Pixel Bash. That will allow you to offer a lot of good early 80s games at a low cost without taking up much space. It won´t make a lot of money, but it will greatly help in meeting the "offer old games" part.
3) Offer video redemption games. Some video redemption games are good enough to give kids a good gaming experience. Space Invaders Frenzy and Centipede Chaos are two examples. I am sure there are other decent video redemption games as well.
We make fun of Space Invaders Frenzy for being a dumb version of Space Invaders, but for kids it is a fun lightgun game, just with different graphics from the ones you already have.
Centipede Chaos retains the core of the original gameplay, and is a way to introduce kids to this old school gameplay that Centipede never will.
It is up to you what prizes they can choose from. The prizes could be something you find more suitable than a stuffed animal and a keychain. Something they will enjoy, and at the same time have a positive influence on their lives. One prize could be to choose from a selection of comic books you approve of.
You would make a good arcade sales consultant.
My brother who is essentially a business partner (just not in a legal sense) is cool with this route - although time for me to counter. 
Perhaps it would help for me to provide more context.
Retro stuff isn't really an attempt to persuade young people to play anything, it's more "what can I do differently than everyone else around here?" and add some indirect income appeal. We do get families every day, so having the retro stuff appeals to the parents...but of course, most of the coins get dumped into the newer games by the kids
As things stand at the moment, I'm spending most resources servicing debt, so I can't really splurge. As you mention, selling off a bunch of the poorer stuff like retro and pins can help there, however, the debt is such and the pricing of good earning redemption games (regular and videmption) are so high that I wouldn't get very far. Perhaps if pricing came back down to 2019 levels it might, but there's no indication that will happen soon.
Assuming I did sell off all of the pins, I'd still have to completely rebuild my space for toys, which is expensive - or I could spend about the same amount on a Prize Hub, which allows a location to offer the toys without an attendant. I think those run for $13k~20K, depending on the configuration. I've not looked into how much it costs to buy all of the toys, but it would be a few thousand at least for some decent stuff.
Note that we do have a few "instant prize" machines - a couple of cranes and a couple of what are called merchandizers. These do pretty well and I prefer those since it eliminates the middle man of a ticket. I also have considered getting a new Sega piece called Skill Fall Revolution.
I already cut out the poorest performers, usually only keep them around for a year, two tops, unless there's a reason I need filled space. But its always good to analyze things in a more recent sense and look at what needs to go. I also have a couple of multi-game Pac-Man/Ms. Pac-Man machines. I did think about a Pixel Bash but with what I've got, no need to waste any more on that since it won't make much of a difference.
We do have a couple of videmption games on hand but, to give you a better idea of the costs there, Space Invaders or Bust-A-Move Frenzy are both well above $10k. More traditional redemption can get crazy - as high as $73,000 for a new Wizard of Oz pusher. There's also a new crane machine that costs in the $50k~60k range. They earn great, but doesn't mean it's a guaranteed hit every where that one is found, as they are made for high-traffic FECS...and there is such a place down the hall from me, which I'll get into in a second.Of course there are much cheaper games out there, and used, but the averages on redemption equipment are much higher than video at present. Skill Fall is a cheaper one, and there's a lot of cheap Chinese crap, but the latter is always filled with regrets since the machines can barely last a month or two without breaking down. We've tried some in the past that were variations, such as a Doodle Jump game that did gift cards and Pirate Hook game that did capsules(I remember when a local retro game collector freaked out and wrote a scathing review of my place simply because a single Doodle Jump was on site. He never came back, what a nice guy he was). They did ok but as you mention, you have to go all in and get a bunch of new stuff, or it doesn't appeal.
If I sell all of my pinball machines, I would then destroy the reputation I've built up with the local pinball player community. They hold 2-3 tournaments in our space a month, which is nice and gives other games a good boost. But I'm not at the point where I'm ready to burn that bridge yet. As a random note, pinball has tried over and over again to slap redemption onto it, or even make dumbed down, redemption focused pin designs. They've all been flops.
QuoteRedemption doesn´t have to be a soul sucking quest for crap. By offering a good video redemption experience, you would be saving kids from a bad redemption experience in a competing arcade. Make an arcade that kids want to go to, and that parents are happy to go with them to.
Even though you would have to sacrifice (almost all) the classic games and pinball machines, and maybe some of the worst performing new games, to make room for video redemption games, there is no need to feel bad. There are plenty of retro arcades/barcades for people who want to play old school games. Trying to persuade young people to play old games is a fool´s errand. Allow yourself to make some money for a change, and be proud of the joy you will be bringing to the kids in doing so.
Unfortunately it is a suck quest as the games are all designed to be as dumb and short as is possible to bilk people out of credits. Trying to change people's attitudes about chasing stupid cheap prizes that they forget about the moment they get into the car would also be a fools errand, but I understand what you're saying.
One problem with videmption is that most of those games start off really strong, then six months later, most are no where to be found. The soul sucking part of the redemption industry - coin/marble pushers, ticket cranes and quick coin games - all command a strong lead that takes years to die off. Sometimes, there are ancient games like Big Bass Wheel which still make bank today, but nothing like that is comparable in the videmption space.
Within the same mall, there's a multi-million dollar FEC called All Star Entertainment. They've got a big redemption arcade, maybe about 60% redemption, 40% video; Laser tag, a bar, bumper cars, bowling lanes, party rooms. They also have multiple locations and regularly rotate equipment out between them (a Space Invaders Frenzy is a part of their line-up here, last I walked through there).
Since they opened in 2019, this has created a dilemma for me, as they can easily afford to buy anything and everything that's a top earner on the market, or buy stuff I can't afford, like that WOZ pusher I mentioned (which they have). I know their sales guy and he focuses entirely on the top earners. There are a couple of repeats on the video side between us, where I can sort of beat them on price. But even then, my repeats have gone down in earnings, so it comes back to "how can I distinguish myself from them within the tiny budget I have?"
Retro is one way, pinball another, then games that they don't seem to touch. For some weird reason, they almost never buy Sega. Not sure why that is(probably personal preference from their sales guy), but as you might have noticed from my earnings, they don't make as much as Raw Thrills anyways. Every new RT piece is something that they get, however- I expect to see a $50k Godzilla VR there any day now.
I've tried to get more stuff that they'll never buy, like the Maximum Tune (which has done well), or Enter The Gungeon (which hasn't done well, but that's because the hardware is crap and the software is buggy)
If I were to go that route, the sensible strategy would be to focus more on videmption games that they don't have; then I'm just left more with ones that aren't the top performers, unless we try repeats and see if I can beat them on price. Or, move out of the mall and start over somewhere else.
One thing I would like to do at one point that has worked out well, is buying more non-ticket kids games. There are a few out there, including one I have at my space called Hot Racers. Unfortunately, that exact game has been down for a while as it was Chinese made and just about everything on it, including both monitors, have crapped out. When it works, it makes bank, even without tickets - as I see adults playing it as much as the kids do.
The main problem is that there aren't a ton of non-Chinese choices in this space, but, there are more and more "kidtainment" options starting to pop up out there, such as this:
I suppose from those videos I shared, it sounds like I'm teetering on bankruptcy, but it's not anywhere near that. Yes things are a little tough due to debts accumulated from surviving 2020, but I've been making it work. As mentioned, I already have planned on expanding a little more on instant prize redemption and kids games when I can; Another thing that will give us a giant boost is getting off of tokens and switching to a card system. Those tend to cause any locations earnings to go up by 20-25%. Unfortunately, the cheapest system I can find starts at $25k and goes up from there and as mentioned, I can't bring on new debt at the exact moment. Some of that will be paid off this year though, so once it is, I'll take a look at what is most pressing.
Addendum: Another thing I should add at some point is Skeeball. That destroys pinball no matter which location you find it in. My sports games like basketball machines also do very well.
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48 minutes ago, ledzep said:
So why not have a few in various corners for those people who can stomach a challenge?
That's exactly why I've invested a lot into the exA-Arcadia stuff - I have two of those cabinets, and its the only place where I can get some challenging new/retro, fighting, and shmup games. Unfortunately, they don't get as much play as I'd like to see, but I'll keep at it
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Regarding classic arcades performing in FECs @ledzep, there are many I've seen do that, but I've not heard any numbers. Generally that means they're filler and the location is too embarrassed to discuss them. Although oddly enough, I once saw some earnings reports for Xtreme Action Park down in Ft. Lauderdale (super impressive place). Instead of having a special retro area, they just put old and new where ever. None of the retro games were on the earnings list, for some odd reason.
Elev8 Fun Sanford's "Rewind Arcade" was fairly sizable the last time I was there @TampaBay but games were a bit spaced out instead of packed in close together. This also brings up the question of how much are these places charging for those games. It's usually not 25c, which I think causes us old timers to scoff. @Lord Mushroom here's an example, mostly 90s IIRC
To your point LM, yes if I was smart, I'd have redemption and food but instead I'm an idealist. When I worked at an FEC as a teen, I hated the redemption desk and I hated those "games." I don't see coin pushers as games since you're not actually playing anything - and that's also why stuff like that is in constant legal limbo between games and gambling.
When I setup my arcade, I vowed to do it in a way that was only focused on gaming and fun and I've stuck to that. If redemption isn't there to distract people, they'll play games and I think it's ultimately more fulfilling to spend more than 10 seconds on something as opposed to swiping a card 50 times a minute and walking away with a handful of tickets.
I'll be coming up on 16 years in business this June, so I've been successful to some degree. Could I be more successful by doing what everyone else does? Sure. I used to sell arcade machines and I built arcades for people that were typical cookie cutter things with a 60/40 or 70/30 redemption/video mix. I'm just being stubborn and trying to prove a point to myself, I suppose
I mainly don't do food as I have little restaurant experience and the cost to convert my venue into such a place would be enormous (more than I can afford to do). That also changes how I would be taxed. It feels somewhat pointless as I am in a mall, where there are plenty of food options both inside and out.
So, my pitch to the public is: Experience a video arcade in its purest form, where you can play games that are both old and new, enjoy some pinball, and find rare or unusual games that you won't get at Dave&Busters, Round1USA, nor the cookie-cutter bowling alley down the hall from me. Some people have expressed surprise and appreciate that we're not a "kiddie casino" like everywhere else, although where I can continue to improve on all that, I'm all ears. Not sure where I can put Asteroids for testing though...
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I'd love a new Space Gun, I think it would do really well. Sadly, while Taito exists, they kind of just coast along in the Japanese market now.
Pole Position is weird in that PP3 was a game they called Final Lap, then Final Lap morphed into Ridge Racer, then RR morphed into Maximum Tune... MT has nothing to do with PP, aside from being a racing game.
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1 minute ago, Giles N said:
How does classics from 80ies and 90ies hold up?
Do they still attract some types of gamers, - are they super niche, or have some moved to Mario-like fame - being played by new gamers also judt because its so fameous…? (I mean other than Pac Msn?)
There are a lot of "retrocades" out there which use a free play model - they charge an entry fee at the door, then all the games inside are free (except for pinball and skeeball). Many seem to be successful, although many struggle and a few close. Generally you need a lot of games to be a success, but the more old games you have, the more problems you'll have for maintenance.
It's tough because people have been playing these games for 30/40 years and they just don't want to come out and play them every day; Or, they have Pac-Man on their phone or console and don't feel the need to go out and find an arcade machine to play. I get into more detail on these videos though:
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6 minutes ago, Giles N said:
And Arcades now are in what state… rebuilding, adapting, being a niche thing, or still found within gamer-circles and/or Amusement Parks…?
Right before the pandemic, Eugene Jarvis had said he felt things were like in the mid-90s (from his perspective, that was when Midway was on top with the likes of Mortal Kombat, NBA Jam, Cruis'n USA, etc.). While that did damage the industry, it's been able to bounce back. Right now, there are a lot of bar/arcades out there, but most money has been flowing into FECs (Family Entertainment Centers). Companies like Dave & Busters, Round1USA and Chuck E. Cheeses keep expanding. It is in a good place but I personally see the main issue being that it's really tough for a newcomer with a small budget to break into the market. Most games are being developed for those FECs that have a lot of money, and so both the prices and sizes of the games keeps going up (along with inflation pressures which haven't abated).
In the last decade ('10-19), the average cost of a new game was $7500. Now, it's more like $14,000. 😕
14 minutes ago, TampaBay said:@Shaggy the Atarian By the way, I really laughed at your comment earlier about the VR but I forgot to reply. Yeah I want to try them out but I just can't see myself wearing those sweaty goggles that someone just took off. Ha. I was just trying to remember on the original classic Battlezone if you pressed your face on the periscope. Either way I've played that game a million times. 😀
For extra VR fun, there's this old incident I caught by accident:
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19 minutes ago, Giles N said:
And… was it popular? Do you see it being used in ways that caters to the crowds…?
It’s like - Star Wars or Lord of the Rings with this given crisp and clear-cut gameplay and some spectacular graphics could be really wow!
Where they could be found they were popular, but most of Konami & Namco's motion sensing stuff came out around the time of the last arcade market crash, which happened around '99-'04. Some of them did come out of Japan; Konami also pioneered the tech that would become Microsoft's Kinect with games like MoCap Boxing
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1 minute ago, Giles N said:
Have anyone ever made an Arcade game, where the player swings a plastic sword in the air in front of the game screen to hack at incoming monsters, - like a wii-mote, just with attached fake-‘blade’ (harmless materisls of course), and use a movable plastic-shield to protect against attackes monsters are performing against the player on the game-screen. That is, instead of a light-gun, a sword and shield which interacts with the graphics on the screen.?
Yes - in fact this is the kind of tech that inspired the Wii, instead of it being the other way around
Konami in particular pioneered this tech, but others like Namco also had some games ;like this one below (sorry for the potato quality but most videos on this only show the game being played in emulation and not on a real machine like this):
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10 minutes ago, Giles N said:
Yes, it could be cool to see a new, Recharged or Re-something version of Warlords - a software version that could be used both on normal up-standing screens, but also be put on flat-lying (table) screens - with four-player option of course.
On the table-screen version the players could stand at their respective corners using some direction-button like the one used on Capcoms Forgotten Worlds Arcade machine, to swipe whatever shield or line-up of shields and protective/deflective things gotten back and forth.
The screen could be roughly a bit bigger than a typical Pool table, with crisp graphics, lots nice upbeat medievalistic-styled rock music, voices announcing and commenting whats going-on Gauntlet-style…
(…ok, I could go on with tons of ideas for such Re-something version of Warlords, but point is its social with 4 player.)
There is one company currently working on a new version of a cocktail Warlords. They are called Retro Arcade Remakes, although as far as I am aware, they are looking at simply putting the original arcade version into a modern cabinet:
Then to your point about larger multiplayer experiences, those have been more and more popular. Killer Queen Arcade offers up to 10 players; Bandai Namco somewhat recently did this 8-player Pac-Man Battle Royale Chompionship, which does have the pool table/air hockey size thing going on. I'm surprised more companies haven't chased this idea, as I think the market is ripe for them, particularly the bar/arcade market:
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1 hour ago, Giles N said:
… if…
…you see them…
… why bother to get super-good at a hard-as-nails-game you find, like 5 places on the face of the planet the next decade…?
…why not just pay for a ride and a show…?
Would you give your 10 year old son 40 bucks to really have a blast in an Arcade one single day, or buy him a new game he’d play several
times that year, one play-through being 50 hours long (…and you can only afford 250 bucks total to games for son number 2 that year…)?
Why would son number 2 want to get super-good at a super-game which is also super-hard, only to hear he’s very, very unlikely to encounter it ever again…?In part my advice is for all of the hardcore gamers out there who lament that "arcades are dead" - gaming like you knew it will never make a comeback if everyone ignores the opportunity to play something good when they come across it. But yes, what will most do - the easy thing.
Now there is one other aspect I haven't touched on that arcades have too, something that Nintendo constantly gets at with a focus on "couch gaming" - social atmosphere gaming. Aside from multiplayer games earning better (each player station builds on that potential), the experience of playing with someone else or a group at an arcade is different than at home. Part of that is the wildcard of strangers - unlike the internet, playing with a rando in public generally means people are respectful to each other and sometimes you can make new friends when you both play a game you enjoy.
Then there's the aspect of showing off. It doesn't happen as much as it used to but when you have a player who is really good at a game, that draws attention. If you're that player, that's something else of showing off in public. I suppose you could call it performance art - although not every game is conducive to this sort of thing:
This is one reason why rhythm games have a strong community around them. Not only are the games challenging, it lets people show off (and it can be fun to watch):
Speaking of Star Wars Trilogy, once I remember playing the game while on break (at an arcade I worked at as a teen). I'd become really good at the game at that point and could clear the whole thing out on 1 credit, usually without getting hit. While I was playing this particular day, I was in the zone and ignoring everything around me - until there was a moment where the screen faded to black as a scene transition and I noticed a group of people standing around watching me play. While that made me conscious of them watching all of the sudden, it stood out to me as an experience I could never get at home by playing online or my phone.
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10 minutes ago, ledzep said:
Donut Dodo Do!, I assume that's a translation of a Japanese game title?
In that case no (also with Kung Fu Vs. Karate Champ). Those are US-made indie titles adapted by exA-Arcadia (a Japanese company with several Americans on staff) for arcades. They are trying to do a similar thing to Alan-1 in bringing some more serious, skill-based games back to the arcade space. The two companies have a different way of going about it though (exa has conversion kits and more generic cabinets while Alan-1 does no kits and specialized cabinets with certain features).
From what they've told me, most of their shoot 'em up games sell extremely well in Japan - although it helps that they have adapted some big names in that space (such as CAVE and Touhou shmups). The fighting games they are putting out are gaining steam too, especially in Japan.
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3 minutes ago, ledzep said:
Not blaming you, hahaaha, but I automatically rolled my eyes the moment that video started. Not just more, but MORE more!!
That is a problem, you can only be new and novel once in a given example. I just don't get the general vibe of these non-gamers that the older controls are a waste of time, they only seem to want lightguns and steering wheels. Seems very limiting. But if it makes arcade owners money, they have to accept reality.
Perhaps one piece of helpful context is that all four of those games were developed by a Japanese company and was thinking about the tastes of that market before the US one. Japan still demands skill-based games but if you throw a new Scramble or Xevious out there that just has updated graphics, they consider it boring.
I don't care for bullet hell games, as I spend more time dodging than anything else; Judging by how poorly Aka & Blue did, seems my customers feel the same way 😕
QuoteI wonder if an updated Major Havoc would be attractive.
I love MH but I would guess that it wouldn't be a big hit.
QuoteThey've got to be out in the wild first. This is unfortunately no longer the era of finding a couple arcade games in every convenience store in the neighborhood. When I do make it to some kind of arcade place that has some of the old games, I definitely play them.
Yeah that's what I mean - if you see them, play them.
One irritating oddity I see once in a while is someone will come into my arcade and either express to me or someone that they are with that "this place is awesome" and they gush over an old game or two that they find from their childhood. Then after lavishing praise on what they see, they walk out and I never see them again. Perhaps they are afraid of ruining those old memories as a child, but it is annoying since I can't keep the bills paid on likes and good vibes.
QuoteAw man, that game would be fantastic if it wasn't a virtual roller coaster but was totally directable, like the Battletech version. Which would actually be hard and challenging (verboten, obviously) and it would take a few runs to get the hang of it.
I was tempted to yank out the new hardware and throw in Sega's Star Wars Trilogy Arcade, but the screen image had to be specially masked to work with the projector effect. And trilogy looks pretty rough these days.
There have been a couple of other dome screen games out there such as Mach Storm and Lost Land Adventure, but thanks to the giant price tag they all had, the industry moved on to VR (where they could blow up those margins even wider and charge even more). It's too bad as I'd much rather use a dome screen than don a headset that some sweaty guy just had on.
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8 minutes ago, ledzep said:
I know those graphics would be considered miserable now, but the gameplay itself with the enclosed pods that make you feel like you're operating a walking tank, dodging bad guys' bullets and firing back as you say, how would that fly do you think with modern non-gamers?
I think it depends on the game. The most expensive game I ever spent money on was the Star Wars Battle Pod. It was like a modern Battle Tech system: dome projection screen, wind effects, surround sound, force feedback joystick, huge license...then the gameplay was what modern players crave, it was just a roller coaster that was sort of controllable. It did really well up until The Last Jedi came around, then it never recovered (as in, it stopped making enough to cover its substantial monthly payments. I ended up selling it after Episode 9 came out). Danger of tying to an IP that gets tanked by its parent company, I suppose. Otherwise, yeah - stuff like that is what arcades do best.
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Yeah, we can all agree on that - modern gaming is a very different beast than Golden Age gaming. Tastes and skills have changed, and I don't know that you can force people to be better gamers...although you do occasionally get things like Elden Ring where people find an incentive to play something difficult. What will have that effect in arcades? Not sure. Pinball is sort of in that realm but as myself and many others have experienced, even with all the hype there is behind pinball these days, it's not translating into better earnings at the cash box.
2 hours ago, ledzep said:I suppose that makes more sense with groups (birthdays), too
Yeah, that's a HUGE part of the modern arcade business. I once had a location where we had a party room and it certainly helped contribute to a better outcome there.
2 hours ago, ledzep said:You're making me not want to go to arcades anymore, hahaaha.
No, wait! That's not my intent!
That video just shows some attract modes for four games installed into one cabinet and is perhaps not the best representations of how the games play, although I get the irony there, since they are supposed to be "attracting" people to play.
Vritra Hexa in reality does require skill to play. Here's some direct gameplay. Strategy is required on which type of power-up you go with and there's a button to control the speed of your dragon (not unlike the old Parsec). This game is one of my favorites and the soundtrack is awesome (here's another video of the game with the Arranged soundtrack, which is higher energy and better)
On Gimmick (aka, green turd), that was originally an NES game; The arcade version is a remaster. Having played it and Super Mario Bros., SMB definitely wins with normies but Gimmick has a cult following as it requires a lot more skill to be good at than any SMB game does. Watching a good Gimmick player is impressive.
That third game was called Aka & Blue Type-R, I sold that one off a while ago. It's a bullet hell shooter so you have to be into those to enjoy it. Turns out most of my customers weren't, so off it went.
The last one, Kung Fu Vs. Karate Champ, has been one of my most popular games on that system. My next grab is going to be a similar game called Omen of Sorrow, which looks fantastic. controls are just standard joystick/button...and while the games are fun and are made for more hardcore gamers, the system hasn't been doing too well. 😕 I recently added this game though that I think would appeal to a gamer like yourself. They've got another classic style game in the vein of Dig Dug coming later this year. But as fun as DDD! is, it's not getting any more play than my old Donkey Kong (that's to say, a few bucks a week):
Regarding a deer hunting game, if you look at Big Buck Hunter, that does require skill to play - enough that they hold world championships for it every October, and give away $100k in prizes. Seeing the top level players compete might instill you hope that not all is lost when it comes to modern gaming.
2 hours ago, ledzep said:Have there been any basically accurate helicopter flying sim games? That would probably be cool
Not since Steel Talons in 1991 😕 Last flight sim style game that was released was Blazing Angels Arcade in 2008. Sega also did After Burner Climax, which was cool but not much of a sim.
2 hours ago, ledzep said:Asteroids first came out none of us gamers had any nostalgia or pre-built history about it
True, but it also was cutting edge and novel at the time. Now, games like it are lost in the ocean of indie releases. That's why I think additional hooks can help.
Part of the problem is that once you leave the pioneer era of a thing, you're always going to be comparing new stuff to the greats of the past and it never "feels" the same.
2 hours ago, ledzep said:That game would be perfect for MAME or home consoles
The devs for that one did end up selling it off and the current IP owners are bringing it to Steam this year. It sucks it was a dud as it was a fun game. But that's why I mention that certain elements like a very difficult game, just don't work in modern arcades.
My thing that I try to get across, but perhaps I'm not good at it, is telling people that if they do want to see arcades and old school style games rise again, then play those things when you see them out in the wild. The more that happens, the better those games earn. A strong earning game is an easy sell to an operator, whereas a poor earning game means you have to hope that the arcade op has nostalgia for whatever it is to get them to buy. The latter will never be a big success though.
45 minutes ago, TampaBay said:It's pretty much a small-scale Disney ride where you have a little bit of interaction.
As a gamer myself, this trend pains me, but I can't deny how effective it is. People shove tons of money into virtual roller coasters. Why that is over an actual game, ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯.
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8 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:
What kind of perspective are you imagining the player would have? The same "from a distance" as in the original, or a from the ground looking up, or something else?
I am thinking the perspective is fine as it is. I don´t know what 3D or VR could add, and VR is very expensive.
But perhaps the game needs to be dumbed down, so that there are no missile batteries on the ground to be hit (just towns). And that you are using a missile battery (as a mounted lightgun) to shoot ahead of the incoming missiles, but with immediate explosions (not marking the spot and waiting for the explosion).
If you've played Missile Command 3D on the Jaguar, that should give you a good idea of how that worked. It probably would do better using the "from a distance" perspective - unless of course you are going to throw it into VR, then the Jag version could still work out just fine.
Dumbing down, yes, probably. People really don't like to have to read or think when they approach an arcade game these days. That's why those two genres I mentioned perform so well - the moment you see a gun on a game, you know you're going to be shooting something. When you see a steering wheel, you're driving. Buttons or a joystick (or both) or a trackball - those really can be any number of things, whether it's a shmup or a fighting game, a platformer or whatever. They are instantly less intuitive than the wheel or gun.
That's why Space Invaders Frenzy really is a dumbed down version of SI, but it can still rake in a decent amount of cash. When that first hit the market, it was the #1 game for a while.
5 hours ago, TampaBay said:It's been discussed above in a roundabout manner, but the ultimate questions for the Recharged series are:
* Who is the target market / demographic for the product in arcades
* What is the size of that target market compared to total market of arcade visitors
* What features do the cabinets have that cater to that market
They all intertwine. If the target market is younger arcade goers, then when you get to the question of "what features do the cabinets have", it would need to be based on *that* market. That younger demo is a large market and prefers quick thrills / light guns / action. If the target market is the nostalgia 40+ crowd, then the features may be different (for example the controls would feature buttons vs. a light gun, and potentially more strategy). My opinion is that is a smaller market.
Without having yet experienced the new cabinets first hand, it's hard for me to say who it's going to appeal to. The control scheme would seem to appeal more to the nostalgia crowd, but the question remains: how big is that market in modern arcades? The other features (fans, sounds, lights) may appeal to the younger crowd, but again, without having seen it for myself, I can't tell. I hope I get to see one of these in the wild, I would certainly play it, and as always, I am rooting for it to succeed.
Someone knows a thing or two about marketing I see
I'd add that the moment you throw a license onto something, the existing target market for that product is "baked in." It becomes a delicate balancing game as how do you appeal to that base of fans while expanding the IP for newer audiences? Make something too dumbed down or change it too radically and you lose the user base (which is where I would agree with ledz, throwing guns onto a game like MC or Asteroids would probably drive that base away), so if you've done that, it had better be really good to create a new audience. It's really easy to lose both
Hollywood is a good example here - how many remakes have they crapped out that no one (original fans and potential new fans) liked? Too many to count.
I'd also add that the difficulty of the arcade space is that anyone and everyone can walk in there. I've had guys in their 80s going at a pinball game while a young mom with a newborn baby is wandering around looking for something else. Making a game that appeals to all demographics is pretty tough and few games in history have managed true mass appeal (relatively speaking). Of course, it's up to the arcade op to have a variety of content that isn't trying to appeal to everyone but specific audiences and as long as you combine that all together, you've got a decent business going.
How big is the target market for any of the Atari Recharged games? Well, we know already that most of them reside around here
That isn't anywhere near as large as Sega or Nintendo though. So, if you want them to be a success, certain compromises are going to have to be made to have that broader scope.
8 hours ago, Lord Mushroom said:There is a danger of being misled by the enthusiasm of 40+ year olds, only to fall flat when the same machines are presented to younger people. I recommend testing the different Recharged cabinets in real arcades, ideally with different screen-sizes, control-schemes, gameplay and possible more, to find out what works best.
To be fair, Eugene has a pretty strong sense of what the modern market likes and doesn't like. He did try to bring Defender, Frogger, and Robotron back to arcades in recent years, but none of them were a success. His company, Raw Thrills, was also just named "Manufacturer of the Year" by a long-standing organization called the AAMA, as their games have been the best sellers out there. While I don't care for them leaning so hard into VR right now, they are leading the charge and so far they're being successful with it.
On testing, yes, any of the games Alan-1 does need to go through a bit of that, and need the fine tuning that goes along with them. My location should be doing that sometime in the near future, which will be interesting. I operate in a relatively low-to-mid income area and lately 80% of my customers are Latinos (many of which speak little to no English, so they gravitate towards games that don't require an explanation to enjoy). You already saw what my top games are, so we'll see how they take to something like Asteroids.
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3 hours ago, TampaBay said:
Cool, thanks for the data. Always appreciated.
Just curious, is there a third category for arcade games that *also* do redemption? For example, our Space Invaders Frenzy gives you tickets when you do well, so you can get the little toy prizes in the shop. You can actually get quite a few tickets, at least as much as the pure redemption games. Or are dispensed tickets not what you're referring to when you say redemption? Admittedely I'm not super familiar with all the terminology.
Edit: To be accurate, they are "e-tickets" handled electronically, but all tickets in this arcade are electronic.
I have that as a category that I call "videmption" but the rest of the industry just lumps them in with redemption games, even though they tend to play differently.
Most videmption games have two modes: The default tickets mode, then a non-ticket mode. In ticket mode, the games are usually quite short. Space Invaders does have a non-ticket mode but I don't know if anyone out there uses it. If it is set to that, the game plays a bit differently and its just for points; It goes on for 100 waves, IIRC.
I do have a Galaga Assault and a SpaceWarp 66 that I set to ticketless mode and run them as pure arcade games. They do all right.
Asteroids Recharged already has tickets implemented, although I don't think there are any gameplay differences.
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Perhaps it would help for me to provide more context.
Konami in particular pioneered this tech, but others like Namco also had some games ;like this one below (sorry for the potato quality but most videos on this only show the game being played in emulation and not on a real machine like this):
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New Arcade Games At Amusement Expo 2024 (Including A New Atari Arcade Game)
in Arcade and Pinball
Posted
Finally got around to posting about the 2nd portion of manufacturer booths, which includes exA-Arcadia, Touch Magix, Amusement Source Intl, Bay Tek, UNIS, JET Games, and more.
I'm almost done with coverage, but still got a few loose ends to tie up