Shaggy the Atarian

Just got back from the Alan-1 facility and saw the game. The software wasn't installed yet since the cabs for the trade show next week were under construction. After being given a tour, I helped install some T-molding and some sound wiring on the Recharged cabinets; Also installed some buttons into the two player model CP. The cabs are looking really sharp; The art on the control panel looks excellent. The artwork on these machines not only looks good aesthetically, it's some of the highest quality prints I've seen. The art has texture to it and they can print additional layers on top of what has already been printed. This is the new Avian Knights cab (2p) They've got a seriously heavy duty commercial quality printer that prints the artwork direct to the surface of the cut MDF pieces instead of it being vinyl applied by hand. They also also working with Tim Lapentino on art approvals(Alan-1s people have done the art, Tim gives thumbs up/down, makes suggestions). The official announcement for the first game is coming on Tuesday so hang tight for that. I was already told about some significant changes to the game from the console version. It will be interesting to see how people react to it (particularly arcade operators who play it on Wednesday)

Yeah, a vast majority of retro arcades do the Galloping Ghost model now - it really seems to be the only way to make retro truly work. But it's always weird in that they'll mix it in with expensive new pinball machines and skeeball. Most places that have both of those though will charge for those games, since upkeep on them sucks. Funny you mention Elev8. I know the CEO and I've been to the one in Sanford. I've done a little bit of contract work for them, although most of the stuff I've done is for a company that supplies their arcade machines. Either way, the Sanford location does have a large retro arcade space downstairs the last time I was there, but I also am not sure how it is faring. Online reviews there seem rather negative, and I guess the Seminole Mall was just shut down? Tampa on the other hand (which I haven't visited) seems to be garnering positive reviews though. When it comes to those big Family Entertainment Centers, retro is just filler for old guys. It sucks, but unfortunately kids/teens just don't play those enough to make it worthwhile, at least in that pay-per-play type situation. That's where I think that the graphical presentation needs to look modern to help draw them in. It's anathema to say "graphics matter," but in the modern arcade, they do if you want people to drop a coin or swipe a card. On another note, I was sent a couple of pics of the first Recharged game cabinet (a 2p and 4p model). It's only the cab and the artwork but they are looking really nice. I probably won't be able to post them after I visit tomorrow(embargo until the Amusement Expo show), but I should be able to speak generally about what I see. Anyone want to guess as to which Recharged game will be the first?

Yeah, I get the sense that your general consumer thinks that retro arcades still rake in tons of money, thanks to all the retro hype that's been driving both pop culture arcade awareness and the various retrocades that have opened their doors out there (with Galloping Ghost leading the pack). The unfortunate reality is that they don't, unless there's some kind of really unique hook to them. World's Largest Pac-Man is one example of the latter. I've also discovered that indie arcade games that are brand new but intentionally look old/retro, also are duds. I've owned and operated Cosmotrons, Skycurser, ReRave, Deathstalker, The Act, then several indie console games ported to arcades on the exA-Arcadia. It seems that people see these games, think it's some obscure game they never heard of that I put into a new cabinet to hoodwink them, so they move on to other games that they either know or have a better hook. The result is that almost all of those mentioned games have been poor investments as the amount of money they make week-in, week-out, is dismal. A single Cruis'n Blast can make more in a week than any of those games manage to make over the course of a year. I'll be happy to test out the Alan-1 games and see how they do, but if they don't manage to earn their keep, I won't be buying them. I could go on, but I've made a few videos about the subject where I share numbers. While a couple of years old now, nothing has changed.

A different company is working on a new 4-player Food Fight that is exclusive to arcades, but they are going to be announcing it at Midwest Gaming Classic. A Neo Sprint arcade could possibly work - possibly better than any of the joystick games. If it has a steering wheel, it usually does well. That was their focus first - real arcades and not homes. I do hope these games do well, but I have my reservations due to experience. My Atari games generally don't make much on-site, then as mentioned in another post up there, joystick games never perform better than or even on-par with your typical light-gun or racing game. 😕

Ah you were in town for that. Unfortunately I wasn't able to make it. The Recharged cabinets are using the same I/O system that powers all of the extra widgets on Avian Knights (knocker, fans, LEDs, rumble). So the experience you had with AK will be similar to the Recharged games. While Alan-1 will be producing versions for collectors, the first and foremost market is to arcade operators, who then in turn would put them on location for the end user. The physical additions are certainly one way to stand out but so are things like social play next to each other on a multiplayer game, a unified audio/visual experience, and Alan-1 will be pushing their eSports thing. Don't worry about that. Both of the guys I know at Alan-1 are huge arcade collectors and know this. The CEO of the company is the guy who bought the Grinkers Arcade collection in Idaho. They even went as far as to faithfully reproduce the Atari Star Wars yoke controller that you can buy and drop right into an OG Star Wars cab. I've seen these and they feel exactly like the original. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing them use a spinner on Asteroids for that one (reflecting the Blasteroids control scheme). I have a hunch that most regular arcade players will get confused by the buttons, so a spinner would be better for a casual audience. Ah gotcha. Avian Knights did have some very high quality artwork when I saw it a year ago, but I'll report back on that factor when I visit their manufacturing facility on Friday.

There will be a collector's edition (at least for the first game - I imagine others will depend on how that sells), otherwise they are looking at making it work for the scene. I will likely be testing both Avian Knights and the first Recharged game out here in the near future. We'll see how they earn and I'll be happy to provide them with feedback. But, I've seen this go different ways, depending on how receptive the developer is to constructive criticism. Just due to how I've seen things like indie and joystick games work out over a long period of time, I do have my reservations. Joystick games make little money these days and games that look retro often get ignored (I had Cosmotrons which was basically a new Gravitar - the $3500 game only managed to pull in $5/wk :/ ). Unfortunately even a game like Minecraft gets trounced by any light-gun shooter or driving game. They'll have to do some really cool cabinet tricks to draw people in. In regards to DSM, DSM is no longer building their own, I believe; They are working with a couple of others out there, including Fun Company. I'm not sure if Alan-1 approached Fun Company at all. FC is experienced, but their location make shipping costs a bit stupid at times. Alan-1 was trying to work with a cabinet maker here in UT who flaked out on them, so now they're doing it all in house. That is where I'll be going here on Friday to see their setup in person.

While I don't have that agreement in front of me, I believe it ended back when Midway bought Atari Games, or more likely when Midway ceased all arcade/coin-op operations. The Atari name has been out there on the arcade scene over the past 10 years, but it's been kind of sporadic. All of them have been licenses from Atari SA though and not Warner Bros.

I have a little additional insight into this - not just to plug myself, but I also just got off the phone with the CEO of Alan-1 I will be seeing the first game here in a couple of days https://arcadeheroes.com/2024/03/12/atari-is-returning-to-arcades-with-new-alan-1-partnership/

As Sean mentioned it's Warner, but easiest way to remember it is: If it had this logo on it, or Williams, or Midway, or Time Warner Interactive, it is owned by Warner Bros./Discovery (with few exceptions - a game here and there has been sold off over the years, but 98% of the catalog is with WB)

Lately Atari has been gathering up new IP - they recently bought Stern's 80s video games like Berzerk, they also bought Microprose IP. But Warner owns the Atari Games stuff since AG was bought by Midway in the late '90s, then when Midway went bankrupt in '09, WB bought them all back. That's why every new Mortal Kombat has WB as the publisher. Outside of the Midway Arcade Treasures and the 2014 Gauntlet game though, it seems that no one at WB remembers/knows that they have that catalog. That said, everything pre-'84 from Pong to I, Robot, present Atari has, excepting BattleZone (which they sold off back in 2012 to Rebellion). They also have the Tramiel-era IP, but there isn't much there to salivate over. Except for maybe Ninja Golf

The only old Namco stuff that still makes any money in a modern arcade is Pac-Man/Ms. Pac-Man and Galaga. The rest, you're not going to find it unless you're talking some retro focused arcade. Or, if you define retro to include the 90s, then finding Tekken or SoulCalibur isn't that hard. For actual rarity, you'd need to look up games that had low production numbers - Professor Pac-Man (which was technically all Midway, Namco had little to do with it) only had 400 units made for it; Dragon Saber also didn't see high US production numbers, while the sequel, Dragon Saber, was even rarer. Stuff like Outfoxies and Splatterhouse also didn't go very far and remaining copies are in a collection somewhere. The rest of the games you mentioned in your first post though, not rare by any stretch.

I've made that case before All of the rights for everything Atari Games (i.e., post June 1st, 1984) currently reside with Warner Bros. Probably wouldn't be worth it for something like the 2600+, as discussed on another thread about the WB licensing subject, but it would be cool. Also, IIRC, there was a version of Gauntlet in the works on the 7800, but was never released/found. It is too bad that the 7800 never got a bunch of the late era 2600 releases. Solaris, Secret Quest, Save Mary, would have all made for great releases - particularly Secret Quest. Since it was LoZ, I wonder why they didn't try to put it on the more powerful system.

Well, that's what I said in my last comment. Arcade IP has subjective value to it but that depends on the people at the company. For consumers, there are examples out there that tend to be very loud online but when it comes to sales, no arcade reboot/remake is getting even close to outselling any of the top 10 games that sell in any given year. Which gets back at your original lament for this thread but its just the reality - a giant swath of consumers does not share our passion or nostalgia for games that are 30, 40 years old. I see that week-in and week out at my arcade. Retro games never, ever get close to making as much money as something that is brand new. To your question about EA/MS and why they would be interested in old IP, again, I was just pulling a couple of big money examples out of the hat, making the point that even though its old IP and most of it probably isn't worth that much by selves, there are companies out there who may be willing to spend big bucks for the whole thing, if the opportunity presented itself. I don't know how much Warner might ask nor what a buyer might be willing to pay for any of that, as that would require some deep market research. But are there people all throughout the game industry who has good memories of stuff like Area 51, NBA Jam, SF Rush, Mortal Kombat, etc? Sure. It's just that these brands and games, with a couple of exceptions, haven't been relevant to the games business in many years. Sure, that affects the value of the IP and should drive it down, but you're talking about a huge studio who does more than make games and routinely deals in billions of dollars - I don't think that this catalog would be much of a priority for them either way. Pull out an IP like MK and you probably could only sell the whole thing for a few-several million dollars, which is nothing in Hollywood. In the best case scenario for them, lets say it was $100m - that would still not pull them out of the hole that they are currently in.

Just using a deep pocket as an example, not saying that EA specifically has any interest in the Midway/Atari IP - although EA Sports probably would want Midway's stuff like NBA Jam and NFL Blitz if they could grab it. While it might not seem like there's any interest, keep in mind that every big company has people working there who were fans of all sorts of arcade games. So if anyone in the management catches wind of something like Mortal Kombat or Paperboy being on sale, then they would call purchasing and tell them to place a bid.

Yeah, pre-Discovery. I remember reading about them wanting to sell of pieces of their music catalog and such, but they were wanting premiums. Ultimately it depends on the people (lawyers and managers) looking to trim fat and what they think they can get for it. I heard they also want to sell off DC Comics since the comic side has completely collapsed, but either way, things are not great over there. My guess is they will push for that Paramount merger if the feds let them. How much and how they'll sell it depends on various factors, such as what they think its worth, who is interested, etc. Why fire sell it if you think Microsoft or EA will pay you 10x what its actually worth? A fire sale can happen if there are no buyers initially but then you could also end up with a situation where IPs are sold off piecemeal. Maybe Atari could afford to grab some of those, but I think the possibility of it all ending up fractured are pretty high in that case. To be fair, those were reportedly utter crap Making a movie has most of your costs wrapped up in the three production phases - that's where you can spend $100m~$300m before the film even gets to theaters. If it goes to test screenings and audiences hate it, you can either go back and reshoot & edit it (a process that does cost millions), or you can cut your losses and get it as a tax write-off. Keep in mind that forging ahead with a turd is a big risk to lose even more money, as you have to spend usually half of your production budget on marketing - then theaters also have to get a big percentage of the cut. This is why a $300m movie needs something closer to $900m just to break even. If Disney was being run by competent people, most of their 2023 slate should've been shelved, but I guess they really enjoy burning investor money after losing $1B on their flops last year. Warner isn't in a better situation, also losing billions from their failed streaming efforts.

Giving it a spin - it is fun! Look forward to the final

Well, I did apply for a position at WB Games recently in their product marketing department so if I land the job, I'll certainly see what I can find out on what the policy is in regards to licensing and such

Yep, also possible. It's a huge company so there are all sorts of directions things like that can go in - One day you could get someone who is clueless and just throws out the scare number, the next you get someone sensible and who does their research, etc. Chances of them seeing anything other than Mortal Kombat as being lucrative are pretty low. MK has had the benefit of frequent new releases + it has the original designer behind it. You don't have that with 95% of the AtariG/Midway catalog, Eugene Jarvis being the exception (even he hasn't found it profitable to bring anything else back - he did test out a "World's Largest Defender" a few years ago but found it not worth releasing).

I don't know what the asking prices might be among console buyers but I know a few people inside the arcade industry who have tried to just to license old Midway or Atari G. IP and they were saying that it was "around $1 million" regardless the IP. That's greed for you. Eugene Jarvis has floated the idea of resurrecting SF Rush but it hasn't happened yet - likely in part due to insanely high licensing costs(I'll ask him next time I see him). Keep in mind that after licensing is paid for, you still have to create the game. If you want something Nintendo-quality, it's going to take millions of dollars and some of the best coders/artists/producers/etc. to put something together that will grab attention. Otherwise, probably not worth it to do Marble Madness Recharged. It could have been old management who thought that they were still on a money printing mine with that IP but with the merger and staff frequently changing hands in a company like WB, maybe that will change. WB is in a somewhat desperate money situation where they've been talking about merging with Paramount, which would cause more tumult behind the scenes and changing hands. If that goes through, it could take a while before things settle to figure it out. Of course, they could put up the IP rights for sale in bulk...but given how desperate they are to save the sinking ship, they'd probably be asking a premium for it as opposed to fire selling them.

It would be great to "restore" Atari to its full glory by bringing the two together - problem is that you're probably talking hundreds of millions of dollars, unless in their desperation after putting out tons of flops on the film side, WB would put it on firesale. IMHO, most of the AG/Midway IP is not worth THAT much, but we're not talking gamers that understand what it is that they have, they just see nerds hyping over something and think they'll pay anything for it. I could be wrong but I get the impression that Ed Boon is content with MK as it pays his bills. People tend to forget that most fighting games that came out of the 90s were not very good as they were just copying SF2, MK, or VF. Boon would have seen Midway fail to capitalize on anything that wasn't MK so that probably stuck with him; Atari for their part couldn't find anything that stuck aside from Area 51 and SF Rush. As I've heard it told, Primal Rage made more money off of merchandizing than it did from arcade and console sales 😕That's part of the reason they decided not to release PR2, nor another 3D fighting game they were working on called Tenth Degree. To be fair, the same people who were in charge of Warner in '84, which would have included Steve Ross (who made the back-breaking decision to get the E.T. license, just because he wanted Spielberg to dump Universal and make films at Warner), were not in charge when that 2009 acquisition was made. To summarize the history, Warner did not sell all of Atari off in June '84 - they only sold the home & computer divisions. They kept the arcade division and that's where it was renamed as Atari Games. I, Robot was the last Atari arcade game to sit with the home side that Warner sold off - everything else to carry the Atari Games logo (Paperboy, Marble Madness, Area 51, etc), were all made under Warner's ownership. There still was some unclear legal stuff they had to deal with though - AG guys like Ed Logg felt that they still had legal access to the IP that had been sold off since they designed it, hence you got stuff like Blasteroids. But I think they settled that eventually. Namco did swoop in soon after and bought up a chunk of stock in the company, which is why AG released stuff like Dragon Saber, Assault, and Splatterhouse around '87/'88. But, they eventually divested their portion and AG was still kept under Warner's wing. When Warner became Time-Warner, that's where some AG games carried the Time-Warner Interactive logo for a bit, such as seen on Area 51. But they still struggled to find a consistent stream of hits and it was at the end of the 90s ('98 IIRC) where Midway, riding high off of their 90s successes, bought AG and started mixing staff. They changed it to Midway Games West right at the end (Gauntlet Dark Legacy reflects this) before shutting all arcade divisions down in 2002 - then Midway went bankrupt in '09 and someone at Warner remembered they still had an Atari connection while seeing an opportunity to bolster their games division, so scooped it up on the cheap and the rest is history. My gut feeling is that no one currently working in the company, particularly WB Games, knows what IP they have under their belt. If they do, then they don't see any of it the way that fans do and they don't see any easy way for it to be profitable. Rebooting what was an arcade game into a console game that will have to play differently is not always a guaranteed success - Sega has learned that the hard way in the past, although they are giving it another go with their "new energy" stuff. I do imagine that every company with old IP will be paying attention to what Sega is doing - if they are flops, then you can probably kiss the chances of more stuff like it goodbye.

Only problem is that both of those games are currently owned by Warner Bros./Discovery, not Atari There was a post from a few pages back mentioning indie titles having that retro look - One thing to note though is that I'm not aware of any popular indie retro game that looks like it came from an Atari system, specifically. They're usually targeting a Nintendo or Sega 80s era console. That's more appealing to Gen Xers & Millennials but certainly not GenZ/Alpha or whatever they're classified as. To the OG poster, this was said on the first page in a different way but for Atari's old games to appeal on the same level as anything Nintendo to younger gamers, you need that kind of polish and money behind it, along with deep changes to the game design. Nintendo has people who have been doing this for a long time and understand the franchises along with current tastes & trends to keep pushing the envelope forward. Simply reskinning and updating the paint feels more like a cash grab and unfortunately that's been more Atari's MO for the past many years than actually innovating their games. Since Nintendo was used, simply look at any of their games and compare them to the originals. Take Super Mario Bros. Wonder or The Legend of Zelda BotW/TotK. These are not just nicer looking ways to play the original NES games they came from. They introduce new ideas and features or incorporate new mechanics that other games have done, using them in these beloved franchises that makes them feel fresh. The Recharged games are fun and all but trying to compare them to what Nintendo does is a weird claim that makes no sense to me and that's why you'll be laughed at anywhere you try and make the argument. As Giles said, pushing Atari as this iconic brand means nothing to people who didn't grow up with that and haven't seen the said brand do anything relevant to them at any time, ever. It does appear that the new Lunar Lander and Haunted House are heading in the Nintendo kind of direction for old IP at least but at the same time, Atari will need to develop some new IP from the ground up to likely appeal to the majority of gamers. Perhaps a new FPS or an RTS...but it would have to be highly polished and push the envelop instead of just doing the same thing that everyone else has done.

That's what I mean is that generally speaking(i.e., 99% of opportunities), they've ignored the game. Probably because everyone prefers Kaboom, but still, it'd be nice to have. That's the big problem, although I commend Wade for procuring these games back. That said, there are still some 5200/7800 games that are oddly missing, although I suppose they'll wait until the 100th anniversary to do a collection with everything that they own.

I doubt that it would be much of a challenge for DE to port Red Baron, as the other vector games they did like Space Duel, Tempest and Major Havoc are excellent(and used the same hardware as RB). The vector glow effect is about as perfect as you can expect. I'm an arcade guy first and I don't mind that RB isn't there at this point, as there are 25 arcade games on there already and RB wasn't anywhere near the success that BattleZone was. The Lynx's selection was mostly 'meh' too, so Warbirds coming back definitely helps round that all out better. What's odd to me is that they consistently leave out Avalanche on these compilations. It directly influenced Kaboom! and sure, it's Kaboom! without the character but still, seems like it should be an obvious choice for a fun but obscure gem. At least its far more exciting than Smokey Joe, Super Bug or even Night Driver.

Finally time to wrap this all up. I feel like I'm slacking though in not throwing up 3 videos a day now, haha New Games Aplenty For 2024: Wrapping Up IAAPA 2023 Some extra vids I didn't share from before:

Lots to catch up on here IAAPA 2023: The Raw Thrills Round-up New Fighters For Arcades: Omen Of Sorrow, Phantom Breaker, Arcana Heart 3 Xtend IAAPA 2023: The Sega Amusements Round-Up IAAPA 2023: Pinball (Stern, Jersey Jack, American, Chicago Gaming) IAAPA 2023: The LAI Games Round-Up IAAPA 2023: The JET Games Recap IAAPA 2023: The Adrenaline Amusements Line-Up IAAPA 2023: Andamiro USA’s Game Line-up A few videos that might not be on those pages: