potatohead

All comes down to talking to the people. And it comes down to what we know too, particularly if it's going to be a shared experience. No need to place a bet, given one can get a little info in advance of the decision. "What retro computer would YOU pick?" "Before I just say something, let's talk about what is out there some." "Aren't they all the same these days? Old computers?" "Nope! Things were all over the place. You can get popular game oriented machines with spiffy hardware made today to make things pretty easy and fun. If you are into hardware or programming, some of these older machines can take add on cards, or mods that can be fun to do. Restoring them works like old furniture does too. It's a labor of love there. Ever want to program? Or do you program today? These old environments are lean and mean. And we've got a lot of examples one can work from today. Even game compos where people build and share their game creations and feedback to one another. Some of these machines were quite powerful, others were just a bit more than toys. Many different experiences to be had. It's not like today where most computing related stuff looks and works the same." "That's a bigger scene than I thought." "Here, let me show you some of my stuff and what I'm doing right now." [...] "I just want to play some kick ass old games." "Dude, you want a C64, or ..." "Have always wondered how things work" "Check out this Apple! It's the PC before there was a PC." "Did you know we used to get programs out of magazines at the grocery store, type 'em in, and play games, change 'em?" "Grocery store? "LOL, yeah was a lifeline for many of us learning and gaming." "I remember...." "Oh yeah, that's an Atari. Let's talk about the different ones. And you will want an add on..." "What game do you remember from back then?" "Here, you gotta play this!" Etc...

I have both an //e and GS. Have had the GS for years and just recently picked up a keyboard and mouse for it. Always wanted to explore the GS some. An unexpanded GS, or one that is lightly expanded like mine is, does not run all the latest stuff. Will run a fair number of games. I think I can run GS OS 4.x tops, due to only having 640K of total RAM. The machine will expand to 1Mb with the boards it has in there right now, but man! I don't know whether I want to source a pile of old RAM chips. Not sure I want to buy an accelerator card either. Right now, if I had to pick? I would keep the //e Platinum. The GS stuff is spiffy, and the mouse can get used a lot. I like it, and it's fun to see how all that was shaping up. Nice system. But for me, the fun is the older games, and the //e is a simpler system overall. And I got an accelerator for it that wasn't expensive. I have a CFFA, misc cards, serial, disk, etc... Maybe look at what you like to do the most, pack the best cards into the one you want to keep and run with it. I'll keep both for now, but the //e will be the daily driver for various retro fun in my case. Maybe I'll run into some GS goodies and change up.

Today, Javascript and Python are for everyone. Both can offer an interactive environment too. It's a whole lot like BASIC and the early 8 bit scene in many respects. Point a little kid at one of the browser JS dev toy pages and interesting things can happen. Same as it did back then. Put a kid in front of something that let them interact with the TV, and they could just start like so many of us did.

The one person I know who got started on one of these is an embedded software / hardware engineer today. Earlier, I wrote about modest capability sometimes being a good thing. Batari Basic is an example of how that all works. When there isn't much, in a way the path forward to some goal is more clear. People took the little bit the VCS offered and did something. Machines like that Interact are kind of the same way. They self-select for the people who get it and are looking to learn. Others will move on pretty quick. The one nice thing about that machine is the display is a simple bitmap. So it doesn't do much, and text density is terrible, but it does do graphics too. The minimum is there! LOL, bare minimum, IMHO.

This is hilarious, and quite unexpected.

BASIC is also for people to get good use out of the computer. Most things don't need to be fast. Games are the hard case, obviously. I know a guy who made a lot of money writing business apps in the Basic that came with most PC's. I made a little windowing system for him. One could be looking at reports, or inputting data, and it would pop up and display something and or take input and go away. The whole works was text, monochrome display. Those programs saved people a lot of time. Was enlightening to see at the time when I was still beginning. Having seen that, I came to realize BASIC is good for capturing knowledge and or automating some things. One of the first things I did in BASIC that I went on to use over and over was sheet metal layout calculations. One could measure a little, input some numbers and get back exactly what was needed to make the part, given material, tooling and other variables. Did it on my Apple, then ported it to a little pocket computer I had. The folding one. Used it for years. On my Atari, I produced a basic inventory system for a guy down the road. Was simple, but saved him a ton of time. Everything fit on one floppy disk. He could just copy for the month, file it away and continue... Right now, if I were working in a shop, my Model 100 would be killer! Lasts forever on a set of batteries, has graphics, a respectable Basic, and it would not take long to go through and put programs together to get whatever it is done, quick, old school, right. That little pocket computer ended up making me a ton of money. Later on, I wrote those same utilities inside a CAD system. Not only would it do the math, but it would generate the entities needed for CNC processing. Sold a bunch of those for a couple hundred a pop. Got my first 386 that way. Basic mapped right over to the simple language built into the CAD software. All the skills mapped over, leaving me with some math to sort out. Late 80's, early 90's. That "Cosmic Aliens" effort is respectable! That's using GET AND PUT, isn't it? I always thought that functionality was pretty great. A lot can be done with it.

This too, right? Credit always given. That's how I play it. When someone gets after it, however ugly, yeah. I'm down to help, if I can. Worth it.

LOL That still bothers me. I am not a professional programmer, though I have written a lot of programs on a wide variety of systems. Just took a software project, because Covid and work remote and keep options open... It's nice to have friends. They will tell me, "write something" and then call me. Perfect. Making sure I continue in the same spirit. Good. But yes, given time the learn how to learn dynamic will pay off. Just keep after it! And it's not just programming! That whole era, cars, computers, electronics... If a person wants to, they can just jump in and go. Very high value. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I get the distinct impression that people cannot read. 6803, but I digress. I get the impression everyone knows best what everyone else should get out of retrocomputing! Come on, laugh. It's funny. OF COURSE we all go for what we know and enjoy. OF COURSE.

This. And yeah, that's me. Just started typing stuff in and off I went! A group of us growing up did, and we all ended up with nice careers related to computing. I would argue the other thing one gets out of an experience like the 8 bitters offered was how to learn how to learn. It's all there, and at a scope and scale understandable by mere mortals too. Having some graphics support helps a lot. People can plot output, see math play out, all sorts of things. It's one of the things that makes a BASIC nice. And it doesn't take much. Even just two colors is plenty.

Well, I will absolutely admit I enjoyed the entire discussion, BASIC and all. Indeed! And that kind of sucks on a C64. Many of us noted that back in the day. I did. Literally, first time I hopped on a C64, "WTF is this? Where is the good stuff?" Then did what everyone else did, started peeking and poking around to explore the hardware. These impressions also vary widely. Depends on what you got started with. For me, it was a few programs on a TRS-80, then basically tons of learning and programming on an Apple 2. That had monitor, line assembler and a solid BASIC. Going to the Atari, was like "you gotta buy it?" Pay again for an assembler, or write one? (I sucked it up and bought MAC/65) Around that time, I also spent time on a CoCo and was frankly, impressed! That's a very fun computer if you are into programming one. Landing on the C64 BASIC was kind of "Meh" Someone coming from a VIC-20, or maybe TRS-80, wouldn't think twice! C64 has special stuff, and you peek and poke at it. Cool. This is all entertaining when we realize it's days gone by and just fun to discuss. That's where I'm at on it. No worries here.

Back in the day, there were users, and there were programmers. The users ran applications played games and that sort of thing. The programmers really did care about basic what was in the ROM and all that stuff. They also got into the machine details too. People wanting to learn about computers, definitely value those things, and definitely benefited from them. I think the basic discussion today is entirely relevant, because if someone wants to explore that part of the Retro experience, learn in that way, nothing's changed. Which by the way, speaks to talking to someone before recommending first retro computer.

Well technically, "sucks" can include useful and functional. Just saying... lol IMHO, a lot of it comes down to C64 BASIC is basically PET BASIC. Nothing wrong with PET Basic, when it's on a PET.

I have gone that route too. Just didn't retrobrite. Frankly, they look old, and are old. Well loved. I have used a magic eraser to gently get rid of some things. That is abrasive though. Use with care.

Re 6803: Nice work! It is true that everyone dis not become a master at BASIC. But we expose people to stuff to find out who does! In my peer group, back in the day, several of us "got it" and wrote a lot of useful programs. Once that happened on one machine, the general ability to do it on another one came along for the ride. See where that leads today? Today, when people go back to look at retro, sales numbers don't matter. And if we are showing or helping someone enjoy retro, getting into it, maybe doing things we remember, are good at is all part of this. Games can matter, but only to a point. Apps can matter too. "How were things done?" "Why?" are valuable. So is the overall experience. Cassette? Definitely worth a go, and some of these machines have great cassette features. Others don't. Disks? Yup, same deal. Maybe just an idea of how far and fast we have come is worth it? I have done that for a few on my Apple. They approach it, see a USB cable and some disks... what did making a spell checked, formatted document look like? Then... 1Mhz ?!? (Lol, then I show off a few, then over 10...) People get all sorts of stuff from a retro experience. The times I have been asked to, or it just comes up, have always surprised me. Young people, for example, are so damn far away from this stuff compared to us! The differences we see a huge might not even register for them. Seriously!

Limited machines offer limited choices. You all saw what happened with Batari Basic, didn't you? Boom! Tons of people, myself included, knocking out stupid, fun, silly, and some pretty great games. Back in the day, many kids did this. We used to have a regular show n tell. People playing each others silly games. This was really fun, and definitely part of the retro experience. The basics with support for graphics and sound definitely would have not sucked. The ones lacking it? Depends on what people were doing. This thread assumes gaming. And that is entirely fair. However, the question was, "What computer would YOU reccomend?" I said I would talk to the person and then go from there. Somehow, and this is so true of almost everyone so don't take it personally, it turned into a BEST discussion. And that is where the fun is! No worries, right? So, if someone wants that make goofy, fun games experience, they definitely need one of the machines that makes doing that fun and that makes it accessible. Carmack put his kid on an Apple 2, or whatever computer John got going on, and did that for some fun with his kid, and so his kid got to see the roots of it all, and have some perspective. Doing that is all kinds of good, just as gaming is. Back in the day, I thought the C64 Basic sucked. I also thought the docs were exemplary. All in all, one could open that box and get it done. An Atari was pretty good, but the docs were lacking, and opening the box didn't get someone near as far, though books and the magazines at the grocery store (some perspective right there, amirite?) helped. An Apple? The good stuff was in the box there too. CoCo machines were fast and their BASIC, particularly Extended Basic, were great too. Good manuals, and schematics, just like an Apple! It is OK to say the C64 Basic sucked. It did! Overall, Commodore compensated with good docs and the machine itself had great features. The Apple, CoCo machines has better BASIC, and not as many cool features. One can say Sound on an Apple, sans a little 6502 routine, was clicks and farts. Nice ROM though. At least one had a mini assembler and monitor to develop, debug, save, load and call it from Basic right in the box. Too bad about that one bit sound and funky hi-res screen, right? Ok, I think point made. Have fun guys! I am, and I actually have a little one coming up soon. This thread has been fun. I realize I am not going to do games starting out. I am going to use the computer with her, same as I got. Bring games in a little at a time. Definitely INFOCOM ones. Oregon Trail. Other MECC stuff. But to start? "Back in the day, we told our computers what we wanted..." BASIC it is. Maybe I will get another round of show n tell goofy, fun gameplay. And on that note, a little kid starring out telling that computer what to do? The only thing that matters is they do tell it something. An MC 10 can light that spark same as a C64, Apple, TI, whatever can. Of course, she is going to learn about open, fixing shit, and lots of other basics I use in my life and that my own kids got taught. Grand kids are just round 2! I won't care what she does. Only that she gets a taste of that perspective. For many, that is going to be what retro is about and it is more than games. Even if it is just a little tiny bit more. Maybe that means BASIC on a tablet too. Hmmm....

That is pretty cool. I would do one. People are putting Ras Pi computers in their Apples. I may do that. Sometimes interests change. I got way into Atari and hit a plateau. The FujiNET project may suck me back in. But yeah, just kind of peaked. So I kept my 800XL and 400 and went back to the Apple. Same with CoCo right now. Just kind of peaked on it. While jamming on those, I ignored Apple. Then I got an itch, and got one and was in! I feel it ebbs and flows. Getting a new system definitely helps all that along.

These are getting fun. I may get one at some point. For now, I enjoy vintage hardware in all aspects. Repair, programming, gaming, etc... People not into it for the broader experiences are increasingly likely to have a great time with an FPGA.

I have a PVM in that same role. Works at 15Khz RGB, S-video, composite. Have not hooked the GS up to it yet, but I expect a great display. Need to do my CoCo3 too. Have never run one over RGB. The big difference I can see between the 1084S and some PVMs is the PVMs do some processing, and are not just a well executed CRT. Some smaller ones do a lot, and a retro display will look distinctly different. Others, such as the one I have, do show some artifacts on an Apple 8 bit display, but are otherwise exemplary. That's over composite. The S-video input channel may be different. Side note: Splitting a composite signal, using a resistor on the chroma input, will often work when used on an S-video input. The difference can be dramatic. Just saying.

Yeah, they vary widely. Depends on what comes in. But, yellowed doesn't mean works poorly. When I got my Platinum from them a decade ago, it was $40, fully equipped, serial card, etc... When it arrived, I had a power supply problem. They shipped me a new one, no worries. I've bought various gear from them ever since.

Totally. I do write on older computers, and it's because the experience tends to color the writing in a way I find enjoyable and creative. I do use my Model 100 as a calculator, quick bang it out tool at times. That's because I wrote the programs back then, and they still do the job today. I do not do that often. Most are going to want to game. Some will want to do electronics type stuff. Re: Apple and $$$ http://www.applerescueofdenver.com/products-page/computers-apple-ii/apple-iie-platinum-w-extended-keyboard/ They have consistently sold pretty great machines at a reasonable cost. Recommended. $150 gets you an //e platinum with the basics ready to go. Re: For the longer haul: Apple by a mile, especially the Plus. New boards are being made, and it's a very open design. Will be fixable for a long time. Re: Disks vs emulation If you have floppy disks, ADT is amazing! Love it. I have a CFFA and am more or less hooked. If I had to choose, I would take anything that I can put an SD or USB thumb drive in because CiderPress is also amazing, and how I get writing off an Apple for use elsewhere. For composite, 90's era CRT's are really good. If you open the back and have a little know how, or can get hold of someone who does, most of those sets can be tweaked into pretty damn good performance.

The stock model can be a lot of fun: Terminal for other system, or interface with microcontroller Note taking in meetings Awesome calculator. Just learn a little BASIC and it's super powerful. A little more BASIC and it's a nice data logger. One example might be fetching values from measurement tools. There is a big overlap between electronics and retrocomputing too. For a while, I had one on my desk at work and did use it in meetings. Had another tech get one. Used it for the terminal, and similar note taking antics. "how long does it run" "Like 40 hours on current batteries" "da-fuq?" Back in the day, these tasks were reasonable. Anyone wanting to retrocompute beyond playing some games? Tasks are still reasonable. For someone wanting to program some, do a few things? Yeah, these little machines are great. I would not underrate portability in these mobile times. That's the best feature! And these machines are great portables. I've shown mine off, and had someone borrow it writing goofy fun programs. Perfect! That's all part of retro. In my view, it's about sharing the tech. People vary extremely widely. Honestly, you never know what might get someone interested. I tend to share what I got and let the conversation flow. Do that, and they will get a "great first retrocomputer"

The exclusive games topic would be interesting.

No rush. Will be fun to see. Personally, I really want a Tek 4052 or similar. Same sort of era.

It is. Taking a longer road. I like to think they saw the more subtle things and just worked it through. Apple coming on board helped. A. Lot.