[Trade: Black Nt Mini for Net Yaroze Playstation]

I'm interested in possibly trading my black Nt Mini (will come CIB) for a CIB Net Yaroze Playstation. If interested, please reach out. Note I'd be looking for the NA version.

 

Thanks!

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

2 hours ago, cacophony said:

The reason why it works on MiSTer is documented here:

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/NES_MiSTer/blob/master/rtl/nes.v#L191

Awesome! Thanks for sharing.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

7 hours ago, Slipard said:

It is true that the MiSTer also made me reconsider many things.

 

To add insult to injury, I was promised twice by Analogue support to be sent the Nt cart protectors. Never received anything.

I sold my Nt, so it is fine since I will get a Nt Mini v2 and I feel lucky to get the best version of it.

 

But the Mega Sg adapters fiasco is still bugging me.

 

Now, Kevtris has stated that MiSTer RAM design don't allow accurate timings on some of the SNES expansion chips (Super FX, SA1...), so it is fine, I have my Super Nt.

 

But I am planning to buy a MiSTer and I wonder about going full MiSTer and become a MiSTer evangelist.

 

I love Kevtris' work, but sometimes, I feel like he is Cuphead, Tabber the Devil and that Kevtris doesn't know yet he lost all his lives without a continue.

Ill say something about MiSTer and accuracy. I have an Ikegami multiformat monitor that is super picky about sync. Both my NES and SNES have this jitter problem when I use them. This is apparently also an issue through an OSSC as well, and the reason it's an issue on these late model Ikegamis is, unlike their BVM counterparts, they don't have VCR mode to account for the slight differences in sync. They make the dejitter board to fix this issue on upscalers, and I've also confirmed it works on my monitor. Interestingly though, both the Nt Mini and Super Nt through the DAC do the same thing, but my MiSTer does not. Point being, Kevs creations are on a different level as far as accuracy goes, good or bad. I have no idea why in this scenario his recreations act "properly" while a MiSTer does not, but they do and at least in my mind it's because he's the best guy in the biz and takes the extra time to make sure its a literal one for one recreation.

 

All that said, there is nothing Kev can do to cover for the fact that Analogue has been lacking for a long time. I heard about the issues they had with the original Nt's, and the fact that there are still original customers out there that haven't been made right by is embarrassing. It's just a damn shame because there isn't anyone out there that has the eye for design like they do, coupled with having the best engineer in the game. I do hope they read this though and realize that they're coming up short, and that they also are running out of good will and need to correct these things.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

And I hate to be so negative about it because I love Kev's work, but what happened with those adapters has been a disgrace.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

34 minutes ago, Slipard said:

The Mega Sg adapters is a total fiasco, an unbelievable shame. I am still angry at Analogue for it.

And, well, yes, if I can't get the adapters (and the dock! isn't that limited too?), the Pocket is a pass for me.

With how quickly the MiSTer has taken off, I don't know if Analogue can afford any more fiasco's like that. I have been a very loyal customer, but since I came into a MiSTer (just by chance really), I'm rethinking a lot of things. When they were the only game in town you could grudgingly accept the poor customer server and the insulting shipping fees, but not so much anymore. I have a GBA core as is, and it's worked just fine for me so far. I don't really need to deal with all the headaches required to get a Pocket. I probably will, but if this doesn't go smoothly, it will prob be the last thing I buy from them.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

7 hours ago, spoonman said:

Does anyone know if Kevtris' ColecoVision core for the Nt Mini works better than the one for the Mega Sg? Or does that also have trouble playing digitized audio samples?

I don't know the answer to this, but since you bring it up, I sure hope if there are improvements that it is implemented in the Nt Mini, ESPECIALLY now that they are making another run. I am also hoping that the work done on the pocket bears fruit on the Mini as well because the GB and GBC cores need some work.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

4 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

A small number of PS1 games don't work properly on the PS2, and I imagine that there are some that don't work on the PS3. I don't think I have any aside from Metal Gear Solid, which has problems on the PS2, but I think only if you turn on the fast read speed thing. For the most part, unless Analogue does something special for a PS1 FPGA system like including another system, there is little point in buying it if you have a PS2 or especially a PS3 since that has HDMI. PS3 uses a software emulator to play PS1 games, but I've never had a problem with it. Almost all of my PS1 games got left behind in the USA, so I don't have many to test. I know that playing PS1 games on the PS3 using a real disc instead of using a PSN download version can sometimes improve the visuals, but it depends on the game.

 

As for Saturn and SuperGrafx, neither of those are going to happen, but that does not stop me from wanting them. I mentioned it before, but Taber once said that he'd like to do WonderSwan. Maybe Pocket will have WonderSwan support, as I'm interested in trying that, but I doubt it.

For what it's worth, I say PS1 is most likely mainly because it's actually possible today, at least from what I've seen. If it was possible to do an N64, I think they'd go that route, but that seems a little far off right now. It'll probably be neither though lol.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

4 hours ago, spoonman said:

Would many people buy an FPGA based PS1? It's one of my personal favorite consoles, but I wouldn't spend $200-400 on an FPGA clone of one when the original has no issues. I bought an HD Retrovision component cable and run it through a RetroTink. You could also buy a cheap PS2 or PS3 and run PS1 on them.

 

I think a Neo•Geo FPGA console would be in higher demand. The Neo is personal for Chris (Taber) as it's directly tied to Analogue's success.

You also have to remember that many Neo•Geo fans are a pretty diehard bunch. It may be considered a niche system, but that's mainly due to it's prohibitive costs. I know quite a few Neo enthusiasts who have ultimate Neo setups who would buy one just to get a minimal upgrade in A/V quality. I think an Analogue Neo•Geo with an AES slot, (+MVS & NGPC adapters), along with the option to play NGCDs from any USB optical drive (which currently sell for around $20) would be worthy. An "All in one Neo•Geo console" (except for maybe the Hyper Neo•Geo 64), one that could also play all of those games from an SDcard (via JB) could be worthy to many. Anyway, niche is sort of their thing. They are looking to sell millions of these systems.. Just thousands. 

 

That being said I think it's time for Analogue/Kevtris to consider working on releasing the Zimba-3000. The Pocket is a step in the right direction, but with no cart/joystick adapters for the mainstream systems (NES/SNES/SMS/GEN/Atari 2600/7800/ColecoVision, etc) it's not what I'm looking for. 

I could see the diehard NeoGeo crowd buying one simply because the actual hardware is aging and hard to replace. And while what you said is true about them starting with NeoGeo, I'm not sure if they want to revisit it. I mean, people have been begging for a cheaper Nt Mini in the mold of the Super Nt and Mega Sg, but they won't budge on that. Taber basically said they did the NES and they're done with it, and similarly he may be done with NeoGeo. I think the coming run of the Nt Mini was unplanned and done because the Pocket hit delays for whatever reason.

 

And yes, people would buy a PS1. You could make the same argument about using an HD Retrovision cable and a Tink or OSSC or whatever kinda setup you want with any other system as well. For the same reasons people buy their other products, they would buy a PS1. 

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

7 hours ago, CZroe said:

Man, a PSone, Neo Geo CD, PC Engine CD-ROM² console would be a killer follow-up to the Pocket and would come full-circle back to Neo Geo (where they started with consilized MVS).

Yea, if they do the PS1 something like that would be my hope.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

24 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Yes, PCE would be a step back as a stand-alone console but not as one part of a multi-platform disc-based console or as part of the Pocket. Also, I don't think Neo Geo would be a step back from the Pocket in any way. It may not have mainstream appeal but even the Pocket is said to be limited.

Yes, if they made a multi-platform disc system it would be a much more enticing proposition, but what I meant by a step back is that they did what they wanted with the 8 bit stuff (Nt Mini and all the additional cores), moved on and tackled the two most popular systems of the 16 bit generation and now are currently building the one handheld to rule them all, which incidentally has moved onto the 32 bit generation. I don't think they're going to go backwards to revisit the 16 bit generation for a couple very niche systems. Kev has said before that PS1 is doable, so that is what I expect. If an N64 is possible, that is also a very strong candidate, but I don't think they could pass up the PS1, and since it's technically more feasible, I think that gets done first.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

10 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

Also, if they want to speed up the release of arcade game carts, they'd have to outsource the development of the FPGA cores. So it would be a commercial endeavor of a much larger scope.

It's an interesting concept, but this is basically what I was thinking the whole time while I was reading your comment. If it's just Kev, this could never happen. And even if they did outsource the development, I wouldn't be expecting an influx of titles initially since engineering a core for each would take time. I don't know that I would want to invest a not insignificant amount of money in an experiment like this. It could easily go south shortly after release and you'll be stuck with a couple games and that will be that. I'd rather just have a (jailbroken) console with the entire library already at my fingertips.

 

If this is something you really want though then you need a MiSTer. You won't have the satisfaction of owning the game, but you get everything else.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

4 hours ago, CZroe said:

The real issue for N64 is that an FPGA powerful enough isn't expected to exist for many years and it have to exist before they can start developing on it. Even the one presumably powerful enough for PSX is too expensive for a commercial product.

DE10 Nano boards from MiSTer are subsidized dev boards which would not be the case for a commercial product from Analogue. It literally cost more for the FPGA than for the whole DE10 Nano dev board due to subsidies. Their goal is to get deva to make something with it to justify buying the chips for a low-volume high-cost commercial product, and FPGA console prices don't support the high cost of the unsubsidized chips. We're kind of abusing their intention by encouraging end users to buy/use the DE10 Nano dev board for their game machines even though they may have no interest in developing for it.

I do wonder what may be possibly with that FPGA in a couple years if it can be combined with a other FPGA. Maybe it will be cheap enough to put into a base console and augment with a second FPGA inside an expansion module, like, PSX in the base station then Saturn and/or N64 with the modules that augmented the main unit with another FPGA. They could have literally twice the logic units or a completely different set of hardware that offloads a lot of the complexity.

Like you, I do hope to see those but it's doubtful N64 could happen anytime soon without a revolutionary new FPGA and cleanroom engineering of the leaked HDL. In the shorter term, PC Engine is more feasible than PSX/Saturn (MUCH less complex and does not require an inordinately expensive FPGA).

 

The only thing I'll say is that Analogue has been pretty ambitious with all of their projects, with the Pocket being by far the most. I don't think they're gonna release the Pocket and then (in a sense) go backwards by creating something like a PCE or NeoGeo. I think it's full steam ahead with something like a PS1 or N64, but I'm just speculating like everyone else.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

7 hours ago, Slipard said:

With the Coronavirus, schedules are all changed, so it's not surprised release dates are on hold. Situation isn't under control yet.

It seemed like it was gonna be a longer wait this time anyway, but they never really gave a firm date, so I dunno.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

I only mention the Pocket because by the time it comes out, it will be far more than a year or so removed from their last console. Basically just saying the yearly cadence isn't necessarily what we should expect going forward, so after they release the Pocket (presumably sometime this year) they'll have plenty of time to work on a PS1, N64, whatever. Now if they plan on making a PS1, I could see some utility to releasing a PCE that supports CD games so they can kinda cut their teeth at building something like that in anticipation for a much more in demand PS1 coming after.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

1 hour ago, CZroe said:

Also, I would not write off actual CD support for an Analogue FPGA PC Engine. It may require and external CD-ROM, like a USB drive, but the CD-ROM for PCE/TG hardware is the most basic there is and literally the easiest to replicate. It's just a 1x CD-ROM and some RAM. Unlike Sega CD there is no special hardware to reverse engineer. It wouldn't even require a reverse-engineered BIOS since you can legit buy it on a card for $15-$25 and the thing would already have a card slot.

Analogue Super HETurbo System.

 

Couple things. With the Pocket having no release date in site, I'm not sure we're on the yearly release schedule anymore, so that gives them some time to work on a PS1 or N64. Also, if they make a PCE with CD support, it damn well better have the CD drive built in. One of the reasons I buy their products (and especially now with the MiSTer maturing) is that they're plug n play and aesthetically pleasing. I don't want some mess with an external CD-ROM in my living room. And while the Mega Sg could get away with not having CD support based upon the strength of the standard Genesis lineup and the not as strong CD library, PCE cannot IMO.

 

That said, I don't have any CD titles anyway, so what I would really be buying it for is CD functionality built in so that I can just load everything via SD from a future jailbreak. And even if I did have a CD collection, having the drive built in is a must.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

10 hours ago, Atariboy said:

All PS1 and N64 patents are expired. The physical hardware of these two platforms is in the public domain.

 

And any company making a system that plays these libraries was always going to have to make their own bios file, carefully avoiding infringing on the originals. The copyrights won't run out for many decades and there's no such thing as waiting until they think it's safe to just steal the copyrighted originals for any company being ran by intelligent leadership.

 

And some supposedly knowledgeable individuals are saying this Nintendo leak has been blown way out of proportion and has information of only limited usefulness. While I haven't seen what was leaked and I'm not in a position to judge it even if I had, here's on such article I've seen along those lines in recent days. 

So that article seemed to be talking (at least mainly) about the Wii. Is it possible that the contents of the N64 dump have more?

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

14 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

I'd rather have Saturn than anything else. SuperGrafx with a built-in disc drive is a close second place.

I would like a Saturn too, but it has less mass market appeal (along with PCE for that matter) than PS1 or N64, so I don't think it's as likely. I would also add that if they do a PCE, it would be assumed that it would have SuperGrafx support, and it would also have to have CD support since that is where most of the more coveted titles reside. If they released that at $189.99, I would buy it, but I don't see that being the direction they go. And Kev has already said before that he was turned off to PCE because the collectors in that crowd gave him a bunch of shit. In fact, if that hadn't happened, we may have already had a PCE core for the Mini years ago 

 

Edit: I should have added that it's unlikely that we get a PCE from Analogue that has any CD support outside of just allowing you to attach the actual peripheral just like the Mega Sg. I think Kev would find a way to fit SuperGrafx into the system, but without built in CD functionality, it's a no go for me, and prob a lot of others. Too many good games, too few CD units and too expensive for what is out there.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

14 hours ago, spoonman said:

It's also one of the few consoles which benefits more from increased texture resolution via software emulation. Even an UltraHMDI modded N64 can't come close to looking as good as one with HD upscaled textures.

That's a good point, but the N64 is kinda unique in that it's like the ultimate party system. Four player Mario Kart, GoldenEye, Mario Party etc etc. Perfect for any living room, and not something that is necessarily just relegated to your game room.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

I think it needs to be N64 or PS1 if they want to keep peoples interest. I'd personally prefer a 64, but PS1 I think makes the most sense.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

12 minutes ago, Slipard said:

I don't like portable video game systems, but I must say the Pocket is something I wanna buy, especially with the dock feature.
It seems really cool, IMHO.

That's where I'm at too. I plan on using my MiSTer in my game room with my CRT's and still have all the Analogue stuff in my living room with my flatscreen, so even though the GBA core on MiSTer is pretty nice, I still have a use for the Pocket. Hoping some other stuff get's ported over to it too, but past the Pocket I'm not sure where they go or if it's something I'll be interested in. Time will tell.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

13 minutes ago, cacophony said:

It's in Nevada near Las Vegas IIRC. People on the West Coast are all paying ~$20. edit: It looks like my Mega Sg shipping was $17 but the Super Nt was $23. The Nt Mini (bigger and heavier) was $23 (v1) and $26 (v2).

Well for what it's worth I've sorta come to peace with the BS shipping costs, but since I've acquired a MiSTer recently (and am very happy with it), I'll be giving any future purchases from Analogue a bit more thought. I'll still be looking to get a Pocket, but we'll see where they go from there. I've not been thrilled with their support either for what it's worth....

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

8 hours ago, cacophony said:

It has to do with distance from the fulfillment center. Everyone within about 1000 miles isn't paying much.

I'm in Pittsburgh....where is the fulfillment center?

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

14 minutes ago, cacophony said:

You're right, the shipping does seem awfully high in certain cases. And I'm sure there are cheaper fulfillment company options. But the company they use at least seems to do a pretty good job in that the packages arrive pretty quickly and are well protected. In my case shipping has always been ~$20, and when I priced the UPS rate for the same package it ended up being ~$15, so the $5 cost for fulfillment + packaging materials seemed reasonable.

Well you're the only person I've heard of that has been getting $20 shipping, so consider yourself lucky I guess.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

Thats fine, but there has to be a better option available. There are plenty of small companies selling things on the internet that dont charge $40 to ship a small package.

[FPGA Based Videogame System]

14 minutes ago, CZroe said:

The thing is, the way these FPGAs are being used fits even the strictest definition of hardware clone and doesn't fit our commonly understood definition of emulation related to gaming in general at all (software interpreting non-native software).

We wouldn't call a counterfeit Little Samson cartridge "emulation" whether it used a mask ROM, EPROM, flash, or whatever else. It's a clone/counterfeit cartridge, but it's still hardware. No one is trying to say that Analogue's FPGA gaming consoles are a real Sega Genesis or SNES. I'm just trying to say that they are as hardware clones in every sense when running their respective cores.

They are hardware clones in the exact same sense that an official 1chip SNES is a hardware clone of the earlier SNES with discrete PPU/CPU or the even earlier one with PPU1, PPU2, CPU, and a modular SPC700. They are hardware clones in the same sense as Hyperkin's SupaBoy and RetroBit's RetroDuo. They are hardware clones in the same sense as any NOAC or earlier famiclones with discrete chips.

The argument that we already have established definitions as they relate to gaming in general is the one I'm making. I'm telling people where FPGA consoles fit into our established distinctions because there has been a lot of misinformation out there leading people to believe it is not equivalent to a hardware clone. It absolutely is. When explained how these FPGA consoles work, it's a lot less "gray" than most think. They are hardware clones for whatever system/core is configured.

I understand what you're saying and largely agree with you, but I just know I wouldn't refer to it as a hardware clone considering what hardware clones of the past have been. I would consider it something different, and as I stated, if it were my creation, I would market it as something different.

 

Edit: I would especially consider this the case because with the exception of the Super Nt, these all are not dedicated "clones" and they also add several features on top of the systems they're designed after.