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I don't think there's a particular misconception w/ Genesis/SNES in America, @Bubsy3000. If anything, I see quite a few misconceptions with people thinking many of the JRPGs SNES is known for did better in the West commercially than they actually did. Prior to Sonic 2 Genesis had modest successes with games like Revenge of Shinobi, Strider and Castle of Illusion but mainly relied on a mixture of those and the sports titles. Again, their publishing strategy was markedly different from Nintendo's in that time; they preferred spreading their releases out in more games not banking on a particular game to "blow up", though yes that did mean it was something of a slower burn. I'd compare early Genesis more to early PlayStation 1; smaller scale of course but the same sort of solid-but-not-hyper-rocket thing that took some time to cook up. But the results in how things progressed once the breakouts did occur is roughly the same. FWIW Nintendo platforms starting w/ SNES tended to have those "big premiers" in terms of sales, but we saw w/ N64 how that can go in the wrong way as well. It's probably actually a testament to how strong Sonic's appeal was in America at the time that it helped offset softer sales of Genesis games in non-sports categories, but those sales weren't so "soft" as if they were essentially "dead", and besides, you have to consider the budget vs. profit considerations there as well. A lot of Sega's stuff in particular were arcade ports, meaning the arcade releases and profits essentially covered the home version's costs in most ways, so it didn't matter if a game like say Turbo Outrun did 500K or 5 million on Genesis or MegaDrive; of course 5 million would be a nice "bonus". Conversely, a game like Earthbound or Super Metroid underperforming with even say "only" 3/4 a million across regions, meant those IPs being shelved for a whole generation. Also, let's be frank here: people tend to retroactively being harsher on the Sega CD than it actually deserves. It's pretty obvious at the time of its commercial availability it wasn't a hindrance on Genesis, otherwise Genesis sales would have sharply constricted. I can definitely agree on the 32X being a problem for the brand image that did hurt it, but Sega CD's influence is overstated. Yes, they did market the FMV games too much in the West, but as far as CD-based options for home platforms and even PCs at the time, you were hard-pressed to find things as value-justified as a Sega CD. I do agree that Jaguar wouldn't have been the same Jaguar in '95 as in '93, but it's also agreed that Jaguar's potential as-is was rarely fully tapped commercially b/c most devs didn't utilize the Tom and Jerry chips, and the system had hardware bugs. To be honest, I think extra dev time would've been rightly prioritized to ironing out those bugs, rather than chucking the Jaguar design out completely for something else. Jaguar's specs were very good for a '93 and even '94 system (going by Japanese release dates), the biggest problem was bugged hardware and devs neglecting Tom + Jerry, not necessarily lack of hardware power. I don't see Atari having the concern or necessarily even the *budget* to take Saturn as such a threat as to redesign Jaguar, and I don't think they may've necessarily needed to, either. For as much as people overstate PS1's capabilities over Saturn, I think some understate Jaguar's in comparison to Saturn and PS1. It likely would've been weaker, yes, but w/ the bugs ironed out and a better SDK environment from the start, it would've been more competitive from Day 1. But like I said, my timeline actually includes the Panther in this discussion: I noticed yours does not, so while in your timeline a Jaguar quite more capable than say Saturn is possible, it also ignores the fact that Atari lacked Sony's pockets to shore up dev/pub/retailer relations in being absent that 16-bit gen, and Lynx wouldn't have been enough on its own to give them mindshare with the home consoles of that time. Atari would've also missed out on designing games to meet the competition in that era head-on and chances at building up strong internal 1st-party dev studios, essentially rendering a more powerful Jaguar a non-issue to Saturn or N64 that generation; Sega and Nintendo's 1st parties alone would be more than enough to sideline a Jaguar w/o a Panther boost, not to mention both of them having working active relations with devs, pubs, and retailers in the home console scene to leverage much stronger than Atari could if they skipped Panther altogether.

Genesis came out in 1989, not 1988, so that was a 3-year period before '92. Also in terms of sales before Sonic the system did pretty well; it didn't skyrocket in the NA market before then, sure, but it wasn't exactly neck-and-neck between it and TurboGraphx-16, either. It was pretty clear by late '90 Genesis was pulling ahead of TurboGraphx in that region. There's actually a pretty big difference between Nintendo and Sega's publishing habits that gen, which you see highlighted most if you look at Sega's 1995 publishing release schedule. They published a whopping 154 games that year across multiple platforms; I'd be surprised if Nintendo published even near a quarter of that number. So yeah, they definitely took a quantity-over-quality approach in that instance and it'd obviously mean greater chances for some turds, but the gems they did publish were true gems, whether or not they set the market on fire. I don't think you can hold non-mega million sale #s against games like Gunstar Heroes or Ristar anymore than you could against something like Earthbound; we know today these games were great games but the market didn't react to them that way at the time. In Sega's case, them releasing so many games actually means they never seemed to focus on any given range in particular (outside of Sonic), but you already mentioned something to that effect in your reply. Just wanted to bring that up to chime my own 2 cents into that particular observation; it doesn't help to look at the sales numbers without looking at the methodology of the publishers behind them. Sega's approach meant they could spread out the numbers on multiple releases and not rely on any given game as a mega-hit to be profitable. Nintendo's approach OTOH meant a given bomb hurt them more (or could hurt them more) with less games to cover the losses; it's why IPs like Earthbound and Metroid were essentially abandoned after a single under-performing game in each that generation. Both methods had their advantages and disadvantages that gen but with today's market costs Sega's method was unsustainable for the long-term, but even they realized this which is partly why they scaled back on total published releases late Saturn and into Dreamcast (unfortunately they failed to capitalize on certain popular IP like Streets of Rage and Eternal Champions which was a detriment that came back to bite them in the ass). Assuming 5th gen would play out as we know it in our timeline, I could see Panther doing strong enough to take Europe and effectively tying with Genesis in America (until SNES pulled ahead), but Japan would still be SFC territory and Brazil would be MegaDrive territory. But hey, at least everyone gets a market to call their own...aside from NEC

Good question...but I'm not really sure if it would've made too big a difference globally, to be honest. Nintendo was always going to have Japan on lock w/ SFC, even though the PC-Engine did pretty well there until its release and a decent while afterwards. America would've been interesting but seeing as how Genesis would be exploding w/ Sonic AND the SNES launching the same year, unless Panther had a REALLLLY strong killer app at launch, it would just have gotten lost in the shuffle. A prime time for them to launch in America would've been 1990 in that case, not 1991, because assuming the TurboGraphx was still floundering, they'd only have to worry about Genesis, which had a strong library even then but nothing that was a mega killer-app the way Sonic would be. Though I wonder if Atari would've had any 1st party stuff to rival games like Revenge of Shinobi or Castle of Illusion, or 3rd party stuff on the level of say Gaires, I'm sure they maybe could've done some comparable stuff or acquire some arcade ports of solid platormers and action games of the time. It'd of been cool to see something like Haunting Starring Poultryguy 2 on the Panther maybe. Europe would've been interesting too, b/c Atari's brand was much stronger there vs. the rest of the world at that time (assuming the 2 million Jaguar preorder numbers are true which...I kinda doubt...did the PS4 even get 2 million preorders in Europe before it's release? And that'd of been with a much bigger home console market, to boot). As far as consoles are concerned, Europe was mainly Sega land before Sony entered the picture, thanks to Master System, but NES did decently there too and SNES helped expand Nintendo in the region quite strongly. A '91 Panther there would've went over better than in America imo, but to what degree is questionable, again considering everything plays out the same for MegaDrive and SNES in that region. In the worst-case scenario, I could see Atari and Nintendo battling it out for 2nd in Europe, Atari coming in 3rd but kind of like how 360 is considered "3rd" in the 7th gen race (when the difference between it and PS3 are so small it's practically like a margin of error). If they got a few killer apps but cut Panther short for Jaguar, I could see them beating Nintendo there but again, not by some obvious measure, and it'd be pretty close between them, Nintendo, and Sega in that region. BUT, if they did EVERYTHING right, got the right killer apps and didn't cut Panther short for Jaguar (basically pushing Jaguar back to mid/late 1995), I could see them actually placing 1st in the European region slightly ahead of Sega and Nintendo (assuming things played out the same with those two), and that'd definitely help with the Jaguar going into the 5th gen. In fact, a stronger Atari in Europe and America (even if they'd do poorly in Japan b/c of SFC) might've actually prevented Sony from jumping into the fray w/ PS1, or at least not having nearly as runaway a pull in America and Europe w/ the system. They (Sony) probably would've been a strong regional thing in Japan though, That said, ALL OF THIS assumes things play out the same with Nintendo, Sega and Sony, which basically means everything with Atari would have to happen in a vacuum which we all know would never be the case. I think a strong Panther would've given Atari more time to iron out the kinks with Jaguar, but probably stick with the same spec. A later Jaguar likely would've meant a cancelled 32X since that was designed mainly for Jaguar and 3DO in the first place, as there'd of been no reason for Japan to keep Saturn from the SoA team given they'd also be releasing in America in '95. Now, both Jaguar and Saturn are systems with "questionable" architectures but while we got some examples of what Saturn could do to its fullest, that never really happened with Jaguar. A Jaguar w/o the bugs and a better SDK likely would've seen stronger 3D games in its lifetime but from what I've seen from the demoscene, the unit's potential is impressive but Saturn still seemed to have the better hardware. So there wouldn't have been a pressure on Sega to fuck up the launch in America by trying to beat a stronger + cheaper system to the punch. As for Nintendo, I think them seeing Jaguar going cartridge-based would have reassured them to stick w/ carts for the N64, creating an interesting scenario for Japanese devs. We all know how many abandoned Nintendo to go to Sony, but assuming Sony go console-less (more on that in a minute), I think we'd see a more balanced split of support w/ them between Nintendo and Sega, basically like w/ SNES + MegaDrive but not as lopsided in certain genres. I.E I could easily see Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest on Saturn, but still having N64 versions too. Games like Ridge Racer having Saturn + N64 editions, same w/ Resident Evil, Street Fighter etc. Games with a stronger focus on the Japanese reason I think would be more likely to use Saturn as the lead, and make more use of the CD medium like what we saw w/ PS games, but others like, say, Contra, would be more similar between the systems. That being said, I think Saturn would've been even more a JRPG house than it actually was, which even in that gen was only outdone by the PS1 in sheer volume of games in that genre. As for system rankings, things playing out this way I'd call it 1) Saturn, 2)N64 and 3)Jaguar. American devs would definitely support the Jaguar more strongly, however, with both better ports and some actual exclusives, though I could see them having a slight preference for Nintendo and Sega, probably pushing the platformers more on Nintendo and action/sports stuff more on Sega, leaving Jaguar with their attention for mature content or possibly FPS games, seeing as how AVP was received and the Doom port, and the controller having some decent potential for the genre. Rankings here would be harder to call; Nintendo technically did reverse and eventually pull ahead of Genesis in America thanks to DKC and a few other games that season, but Sega also pretty much abandoned the Genesis for Saturn the following year. Again, though, no 32X = no pissed off customers over its short life = extended Genesis support = more interesting tail-end of the 16-bit battle in America = much stronger prospects for Saturn there. Especially considering Saturn would benefit from the PS games practically begging for the CD format, on a platform not using a CD drive as an add-on (meaning devs could count on all owners having the feature there). So with that said, I could see America going 1)Saturn, 2)Jaguar and 3)N64 ONLY if Panther does particularly strong, and N64 still keeps its '96 release. Otherwise, swap Nintendo with Atari in that case. Europe would be an interesting case to watch, too. A strong Panther there would mean a quite stronger Jaguar and that would've actually done some damage to both Nintendo and Sega. Saturn would benefit from having CD out of the box but Jaguar would benefit from Atari's computer brand name and a good Panther performance. Assuming Jaguar and Saturn released at the same time or roughly the same time, it'd really come down to the launch lineups for defining the starting positions of those two. Jaguar would've had stronger stuff than friggin' Cybermorphs and even Tempest 2000, but Saturn wouldn't have had the terrible 1st port of Daytona or buggy Virtua Fighter. It also would've benefited from likely having early Namco stuff onboard too like Ridge Racer and Tekken, but those would also have gotten Jaguar versions and, outside of RedBook audio for the Saturn versions, there likely wouldn't be much of a difference between those versions of those games. OTOH, something like D or Lunacy wouldn't be possible on Jaguar w/o significant reworking, but at the same time, D and Lunacy weren't exactly killer apps (fun games, though). So I could see the first year in Europe with Jaguar pulling ahead of Saturn, if rather neck-and-neck. But by the time games like Resident Evil would release, I could see the Saturn closing the distance and maybe pulling ahead, because while you'd get an equivalent version on Jaguar...you'd need to pony up an extra $200 for the Jaguar CD for the full experience. Even a $150 Jaguar + $200 Jaguar CD ($350 total) looks sort of a bad deal compared to say a $250 or even $200 Saturn by that point in time. Offsetting that could, of course, be done w/ say striking a deal to pack in Resident Evil w/ Jaguar CD units, and in that instance I could see Jaguar as a whole maintaining the lead. The only other option for Jaguar to maintain a lead over Saturn by the time games like Resident Evil and Tomb Raider came about, would be to have a QUITE commanding Year 1, but I don't see that being possible with in a best-case scenario as it'd mean Atari needing to have pretty much the best 1st party talent in the industry; I could DEFINITELY see their 1st party stuff being much better than it ended up being w/ Jaguar as we know it, but (imho) still not quite on Sega or Nintendo's caliber or level, meaning they'd rely more on 3rd party but wouldn't have Sony's deep pockets to make 3rd parties completely ignore other options..at least none of the big names like Square or Konami. I COULD see them swinging some European development studios to the Jaguar tho as a main or exclusive focus, like an exclusive Turrican sequel or convincing microcomputer European devs to jump over to Jaguar with some of those games...which in theory could have given them that commanding league, by how much I'm not sure of honestly. Assuming that would happen and the N64 still released as normal, Europe rankings would've either been: 1)Jaguar, 2)Saturn, 3)N64 (assuming a very noticeable Year 1 lead for Jaguar AND Jaguar CD coming out in time for 32-bit games really pushing the CD medium like RE and Tomb Raider), or : 1)Jaguar, 2)Saturn, 3)N64 >> (post RE/Tomb Raider etc.) 1)Saturn, 2)Jaguar, 3)N64 (assuming Jaguar's Year 1 was not a commanding lead over Saturn, and efforts like getting RE or Tomb Raider packed-in w/ Jaguar CD never happening). So uh, yeah, I think in this timeline, funny enough Sega actually benefits more than Atari, and N64 is severely hurt by the late release and being the "other" cartridge-based system b/c of that release timing. That said, I see America being quite closer for Saturn and Jaguar than it was for, say, PS1 and N64, and in Europe I'd see them being even closer than that, more like Genesis/SNES levels there between Jaguar and Saturn, hell maybe even a bit closer than that. You might've noticed I haven't factored Sony into this; truth be told, I think a stronger Atari and Sega in the West would've deterred Sony from (at the very least) pushing PS1 strongly in those regions; people tend to downplay how much PS1 benefited from a late Nintendo, practically dead Atari and panic mode Sega. And, with 2 out of those 3 being in better condition, a PS1 that can't get big traction outside of Japan, might as well be a PS1 that never existed. Sony may've had the money but it wasn't JUST the money that helped PS1 get so big; it was money + taking strategic advantage of Atari, Nintendo and Sega's failings that gen. They theoretically could've put PS1 out there anyway but it likely would've tried releasing closer to N64's release date in the West (and get drowned out by N64 hype) or pulled a Sega and release earlier-than-needed like Spring '95 (and having a poor launch because of it), killing them even earlier in the West than the May surprise release killed Saturn in that market (Sony execs, who were already weary on PS1, would've pulled out very quickly in a bad launch rather than "throw out good money with bad"). Either way, without both of those conditions (money + weak competitors) being true, PS1 would've only done marginally better than the 3DO, and that would've been mainly due to price. The only reason I think it'd of still done pretty decently in Japan is b/c of it being an affordable CD-based alternative to Saturn; depending on what Japanese support they could muster, they'd likely pull in a pretty strong 2nd to Saturn in that region, setting them up very well for PS2 (but PS2 wouldn't have been the mammoth it became, either). That brings up the question then of what Sony'd do if they skipped PS1. Well, they'd still probably partner with someone. Them partnering with Sega would just create an even stronger global success for Saturn, maybe a bit less than what the PS1 itself actually did eventually, but not too far off (maybe around the 70-80 million LTD sales). Atari would be more interesting; Sony's financial strength would allow Atari to do some of those things I mentioned above like Re/Tomb Raider pack-in deals w/ Jaguar CD a reality, and maintain a Jaguar lead in Europe. That'd probably result in a pretty strong global performance, but not to the level of a 70-80 million Saturn in this situation. Likely closer to 55-65 million LTD for a 1st place Jaguar in this scenario. Of course, this all assumes them partnering with Sony and still going the Jaguar/Jaguar CD route. I could see a partnership w/ Sony either (most likely) creating a Jaguar + "Jaguar CD" that's basically a later revision integrating the cartridge and CD functionality while phasing out the base CD-less version, (somewhat less likely) option of a Sony-manufactured Jaguar in Japan w/ a CD drive and cartridge and Atari-manufactured Jaguars in the West w/ just the cartridge and a later CD peripheral (likely to sell for cheaper than what Jaguar CD sold for, say $50 cheaper) or (least likely) a redesigned Jaguar with a CD drive instead of cartridge. Keep in mind all options of a Jaguar w/ a built-in CD drive would probably incur a delay by at least a year (so, a late '95 release in Japan, late '96 release in the West), and in this scenario I see Saturn having a stronger Year 1 and Year 2 but eventually likely being passed by Jaguar in Europe...and creates a pretty dismal scenario for Nintendo in the home console front. I'm talking "Gamecube may be our last home console" scenario, here, tho long-term it'd just mean Nintendo shifting to portables even earlier and that'd probably mean the DS coming out and dominating even earlier, or even trying the "hybrid" Switch method much earlier and bringing Wii functionality to 6th gen instead of 7th gen, and that would see them actually doing pretty damn well, even if a bit less than what the actual DS + Wii managed, mainly b/c there'd be no PS2-like behemoth in that timeline (well, not exactly one, anyway). The absolute LEAST likely scenario here is Sony somehow, someway, getting back on good terms with Nintendo and they proceed with the PS1 as a Sony-Nintendo collaboration. This N64 would release at either '96 (assuming they got to work on it in '92) or '97 (work starts in '93 after spending most of '92 to get back on good terms). So that already puts them considerably behind Saturn and Jaguar in this scenario, but assumes the N64 having a CD drive by default (likely a proprietary format like Dreamcast's GD-ROM) and maybe also still utilize a cartridge slot, with games using both in tandem which could result in some great game concepts for the time. What you'd be looking at here really depends on if it's a '96 or '97 Western launch. '96 in the West would mean late '95 in Japan, and in that case I can actually see the N64 pulling ahead of Saturn there; they'd be able to leverage having strong SFC support there plus offering both CDs and carts (tho Saturn technically could do the same), and it'd still be pretty early in, too. It wouldn't be anywhere near as lopsided as say the SFC/MegaDrive scenario in Japan, but I think you'd still have a notable lead for N64 in the region, even if it'd take a while to do so. I could also see some teams like Square deciding to stick w/ Nintendo exclusively in this scenario, contributing to Japan staying Nintendo territory tho noticeably less so than in the 16-bit era. A late '96 for the West I feel would also probably do somewhat similar for N64's fortunes in America as it did for Japan, eventually overtaking the Saturn but being a pretty close battle between them there, helped by Saturn having a strong Year 1 and (long-term) Sega having a stronger 1st-party team than Atari. The Jaguar loses out here, perhaps strongly, but not to the levels we saw the Saturn fall in the U.S market in our timeline. Europe is actually the one region I can still see Atari eventually doing best in, either in 1st or a strong 2nd, depending on how things go between it and Saturn in Year 1, but I'd also see Nintendo being a healthy 3rd in the region behind whoever is in 2nd. So in terms of rankings, with a late '96 Western release for a CD-based N64, I'd see it as: Japan = 1)N64, 2)Saturn, 3)Jaguar, NA = 1)N64, 2)Saturn, 3)Jaguar and Europe = 1)Jaguar, 2)Saturn, 3)N64 (you can swap Jaguar and Saturn depending on what'd happen with the Jaguar CD and Jaguar having a very strong but not super-dominating Year 1 there). A late '97 release, OTOH, creates some problems. See, in this timeline, a CD-based N64 would not be the Silicon Graphics-based N64 we actually got, but something more modest, closer to PS1 but maybe slightly more capable. That'd be seen as quite good for a '96 console in the West, but by '97 you're talking about an N64 that'd be eclipsed completely by a Dreamcast and Jaguar 2 in terms of power in late '99/2000, and struggling against a Saturn and Jaguar with very large libraries and being available for cheaper (even with Sony backing CD production for this particular N64). You'd basically have an N64 caught in the middle of two generations, lacking the mass-market value and share of its fellow 5th gen rivals and the potential power and features of its upcoming 6th gen successors. And in this scenario there's no way Nintendo' release Gamecube any earlier than 2001, already giving Sega and Atari a full year head start w/ 6th gen (oh, this scenario also assumes Microsoft isn't a factor). This would, imho, be an N64 that's sort of dead-in-the-water; it'd have an initial splash with games like SM64, and maybe the 1st party schedule wouldn't be as staggered, but it'd be a near impossible uphill battle everywhere except Japan, and even there I think even the likes of those games and FFVII wouldn't be enough to stop Saturn or even Jaguar's momentum in that market. The only possible good luck that could come from an N64 releasing this late is either Sega or Atari getting spooked and taking the bad path to an add-on. In this scenario, I see Atari being more vulnerable because they'd already have the Jaguar CD coming as their add-on, and perhaps knowing a CD-based N64 coming a year later could pressure them to do more w/ that unit in terms of advanced features, driving up the cost and incidentally helping both Nintendo and Sega there. This of course would potentially hurt them pretty badly in Europe but again, ONLY if they went too far w/ Jaguar CD. Sega showed restraint w/ add-ons for the Saturn; aside from the NetLink (which wasn't particularly pushed strongly compared to Sega CD or 32X, honestly), other stuff was modestly priced, like the RAM carts, which came with games anyway to justify them as pack-ins. At most, I could see them doing some sort of SVP follow-up concept, but that'd be relatively affordable, likely $60-$80 at most, and likely with modest focus on graphics and most of the focus on either RAM or things like a very fast SRAM pool (iirc the Saturn CPUs had a very small cache pool split between them). So for a late '97 N64 release, you'd have (most likely) rankings of: Japan = 1)Saturn, 2)Jaguar, 3)N64, NA = 1)Saturn, 2)Jaguar, 3)N64, Europe = 1)Saturn, 2)Jaguar, 3)N64 (swap N64 and Jaguar if Atari overdoes the Jaguar CD and pushes it super-hard). In any case, it's obvious that a late '97 Western release for N64 is its worst possible timeline, even if there were a miraculous break for it in Europe. If you consider the '97 release being such a bad thing, the only other option would be to simply skip out of 5th gen altogether; though Nintendo would still have the GameBoy line to fall back on, this puts them in a very dangerous spot similar to where Sega was in '98/'99, except now even worst b/c instead of being "virtually absent" for a year in Western markets, Nintendo's be "virtually absent" GLOBALLY in the 5th gen home console market for several years. This would guarantee an "N64" that's disc-based as a co-Sony collab for either late '98 or late '99 in Japan, re-spec'ed to compete better for 6th gen, but lacking the market relevance of Sega and Atari, ultimately being the biggest problem. They'd need to really push to extend the SNES somehow; possibly by doing another revision launch in '95 integrating the Super FX2 tech into the base unit (or a makeshift "Super FX3" built in) and possibly even a CD drive as well, and phase out the older model for this new one. Give it an MSRP of say $149.99, and position it as a secondary or budget-conscious jump into 32-bit gaming as a complete, integrated package. That would buy them some time against Saturn and Jaguar but eventually would lose out to the both of them, what's important there tho is that by the time it's SERIOUSLY losing out they have the "N64" (really, the "N128" in this scenario) ready to replace it in late '98 in Japan and late '99 in the West. This CD-based SNES revision would also need to be coupled with a strong GameBoy showing, which wouldn't be a problem for Nitendo; together I think the two could have them weather out missing out on 5th gen proper, particularly in Japan where (imho) a CD-based SNES revision w/ built-in "Super FX3" hardware would actually hold off Jaguar and even Saturn there for a little bit, maybe up to a year or so (in any case, it'd get some Square and Enix support which would definitely help keep it relevant, even if they'd also be supporting Saturn as well w/ better versions of say FFVII or Dragon Quest VIII). Shout-outs to anyone who actually read this the whole way through; I get wrapped up in this stuff and wanted to do the idea justice and rationalize my decisions in thinking why things would play out this way. There's a lot of other stuff not factored in here though, like the 3DO, or what would've happened with the 6th gen systems, or Microsoft's involvement (whether they decided to do the Xbox after all or stick with collaborative efforts like Windows CE on Dreamcast); those might be interesting to consider as well. But yeah, long story short, assuming a more passive Sony, a timeline with a stronger Panther actually seems to benefit Sega the most, benefits Atari mightily, and hurts Nintendo the most. That imo holds true even if Sony collabed with Atari. A Sony/Sega collaboration sees Saturn pulling away even further from the pack, but Atari holds their own and Nintendo is pretty crippled in that scenario. While a Sony/Nintendo scenario is the only way I see Nintendo doing strongly even with a stronger Atari/Panther, enough so to take 1st in 2/3 of the big markets (Atari taking Europe) and Sega doing a very strong 2nd in all Big 3 territories. That, of course, assumes a '95 Japan/'96 West release of a CD-based N64, OTHERWISE things get very bad for N64, to the point where actually skipping 5th gen altogether would be better as they could use the SNES as something of a fill-in, provided it's significantly revamped/updated.

Gamehut stuff is pretty good quality; one of the more informative videos on Saturn hardware along w/ that Japanese video and the one talking about the copy protection being cracked. I do feel many overstate how difficult it was to code for the system; the stuff mentioned in that vid (especially w/ the DSP) may sound extremely complicated to most of us, but honestly how much harder is that vs. say getting results out of the Cell and RSX of PS3, or PS2's Emotion Engine? Those systems had the money (thus marketing, media, and publishers) behind them to just "grunt through" the difficulties and get great results regardless; Saturn didn't really enjoy that luxury so the stories of it being "hard to program for" aren't really exclusive to it, it's just an oddity in that developers and the press openly talked about it whereas normally they would shy away doing that if it were the market leader or a health 2nd (like Nintendo was that gen...even there the microcode bs got out in the day). Saturn definitely has its quirks and some bottlenecks in its design but I don't feel it was on this whole other level of engineering complexity even compared to the other systems of the time, let alone something like the PS3.

Actually, regarding games w/ analog control in mind, the vast majority of PS1 games don't natively support it nor were they designed w/ it in mind. I'd say only releases from late '98 onward were specifically made w/ analog support in mind. So while a lot of the games like R4 may not be optimal on digital, they're still very playable on that interface. I think your thing w/ Nintendo being more "subtle" is actually more about people having lower expectations w/ them. As you said, outside of Virtual Console a lot of the NES/SNES games weren't widely available in collections or re-releases, but it's also agreed that they're far behind Sony and Microsoft when it comes to digital platform experience in general (not to mention online features and services). It didn't HAVE to be that way but the fact it is has made people more lenient w/ their utter failure in making Virtual Console a hardware-agnostic digital platform; mix that in with selling people on retro nostalgia and it almost feels to me that they're being given a pass by most people that isn't being afforded to Sony despite they have just as justified reasons to produce Minis of their own systems as Nintendo does. Where are you getting the impression Sony's just slapping together their system? They've had a lot of time to observe not just Nintendo, but SNK, SEGA, and Atari's various efforts. They've also known for a while the retro trends going on and nostalgia for the PS brand (even if they haven't delivered on it the ways I would've liked i.e no UmJammer Lammy sequel, no new Tomba! or Klonoa (altho that's Namco's thing, but still), no new Omega Boost etc.). You mean to tell me the same company that engineered the PS4 and PS4 Pro can't engineer a quality PS1 Mini when the parts would be magnitudes cheaper to acquire, and significantly easier to build into a product? Do you really think the company would release something worst than the early ATGames MegaDrive mini levels in quality knowing the brand name of PS globally and how badly that'd hurt its nostalgia appeal in the long-run with future endeavors of this ilk?

It's not really about cracking it and adding whatever you want, more about setting a precedent. Them putting some of the less-expected but high quality (some often better than the popular picks) games in there officially can help set a meta in a way just random people hacking and adding whatever they want, doesn't really have.

...and you don't think people were complaining when Nintendo did the NES and SNES Classics? It's not like never had a Virtual Console service since the Wii days in which they could've (and usually did) make their archives available for downloadable purchases. It just reeks of some double-standard stuff going on here saying Nintendo's only doing it for nostalgia (when in actuality they got the idea from the Atari flashbacks and Sega Genesis AtGames minis, not to mention just noticing nostalgia for retro gaming as a whole is reaching a peak), but when Sony does it, it's some purely calculated, by-the-numbers thing? No, I'm not buying that. You say Sony's intentionally blocked of BC...well, PS4 is a whole new architecture from previous PS systems. Anyone thinking it could natively do PS3 BC was lying to themselves, and there's no way Sony'd include a Cell processor in the design spec just for PS3 BC. PS2 BC would be software-based and more doable, but would still require a significant amount of processor overhead (PS3 needed at least some of PS2's hardware onboard to emulate that system, it's why PS2 BC support was removed once the EE was dropped). Just like PS4, the Switch represents a wholly different architecture shift for Nintendo but if they planned out Virtual Console in a smart way from the beginning, nothing would have really prevented them from continuing it full steam from Day 1 on the Switch. Do you call that just poor aloofness on Nintendo's part or intentional blocking on their part? Because it's VERY well known how archaic Nintendo's ways of locking Virtual Console purchases to their systems was, meaning if for any reason your system died, you couldn't transfer your purchases over. Why would any company lock software for a *software* service down to individual *hardware* accessing that service if not for the intentions of getting people to repurchase when buying multiple pieces of their hardware? Especially when we know how hardware these days is designed with planned obsolescence in mind? It's like people intentionally softball Nintendo on these things but scrutinize others for doing essentially the same thing; I've never been a fan of that. If you want to say Sony's taking advantage of this mini-console trend in lieu of providing options of BC on their main platforms, fine, it's a fair criticism, but you'd also throw the same line at Nintendo when they've already PROVEN they can provide digital emulation BC through Virtual Console for over a decade, but just suddenly shat the bed with that in transitioning to Switch, and conveniently decide to put in w/ their NES and SNES Classics instead...otherwise you're just going to come off as mighty biased.

Can't state how on-point this is. If people want to preserve or help retro gaming grow healthily, we can't keep pushing the same damn 4-5 games over and over again. Like, I really enjoy Resident Evil 2, but playing it for the millionth time or seeing retro gamers and streamers playing it YET AGAIN for the nth time and honestly, it just gets boring. I know gaming's about relaxing with what you're comfortable with but the streamers in particular...you guys are supposed to be entertainers, learn to switch it up! Putting some of those classics that went underappreciated in their heyday would only help give more a spotlight on those games, at least among the genuine types who aren't going to let lack of nostalgia make them unfairly dog the game when something they probably have nostalgia for has all those same mistakes or worst. And that's assuming the games even have such flaws; imo stuff like Klonoa, Einhander, the Tomba! games, Omega Boost are still as on-point today as they were when released (altho I guess the quest hints in Tomba! are sometimes a bit too obfuscated if you're not using a guide or FAQ, and you're trying to 100% it. But that's a very minor complaint.)

Ridge Racer IV is arguably the best in the whole franchise, and makes the original look like the relic it is. Don't get me wrong, RR1 is probably the most well-known, but in this case they made the smart decision going with IV. Besides, even at the time of its release RR 1 was more than outclassed by Daytona USA in virtually everything but the OST (which I guess is an acquired taste; personally I find the rave-influenced RR tunes pretty damn fun). I wish they'd include Rage Racer tho; kind of the black sheep of the series, but did a lot of neat things and was clearly the building blocks for R4.

Yeah, really gotta commend them for OG Xbox compatibility. If they can get all the SEGA stuff compatible, and the odd stuff like the Blinx Games and Otogi, AND just transfer it straight to the next Xbox, I might indeed be picking up an Xbox for the first time since the 360... ...of course, I want more juicy 1st party offerings too, but I'm looking at it more as a possible neat/all-in-one gaming box in terms of next-gen and retro games. I'd like to see them eventually add official support for other non Sony/Nintendo platforms and give them the polish they've been giving the OG Xbox stuff. Really could be a solid market for MS to corner.

I agree w/ you that at-time hardware sales don't actually translate to long-term nostalgia (doubt many are nostalgic for the Wii for instance), and that works both ways too (which is why I usually shrug off people who write off a Saturn mini; the system's post-market reputation is much stronger than it was during its commercial run. Also there's this thing called "marketing"...)... ...that said, I need to know some of the names of those franchises you're referring to. The big ones I can think of are Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest; both of those were monsters in Japan for PS1 and FF reached its zenith w/ PS1 and became mainstream in America during that time. Aside from that though.....Contra? Contra almost died during the 32-bit era. Mega-Man? They did OK, but were never the marquee draws for PS1. Street Fighter? Tekken ate its lunch and then some. Mortal Kombat? Okay UMK3 did really big at PS1's launch but that franchise fell off right after that. Honest truth is while PS1 built its *style* off of SNES and MegaDrive that gen, the actual games that helped it grow big were either new IP or non Nintendo/SEGA platform IPs. Stuff like Contra and ThunderForce may've seen PS releases eventually, but it was stuff like Jumping Flash, Ridge Racer, Tekken, Destruction Derby, Twisted Metal, Loaded!, Rayman and later Resident Evil, Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid (an MXS-exclusive series until then), Silent Hill etc. that were the marquee pushers of the system. Almost all of those were either adaptations of obscure IP from niche Japanese computers (like Metal Gear), or all-out new IPs, not sequels of continuing IPs from Nintendo and SEGA systems prior.

Holy hell that Josh Rubin quote; somehow that is seen as a good thing while Yu Suzuki's Saturn quote is painted as a bad thing. Yeah, the print media bias was real.

Like I said, it's *possible*, probably not probable however. They know the #1 reason for the backlash was because of AtGame's involvement, and now that they've undoubtedly seeing both Sony and SNK throwing their hats in the ring, they'd probably get the message by now. They've been making a lot of smart decisions lately, I wouldn't expect them to stick w/ AtGames knowing full well people would find out before release and already dog the system b/c of that alone.

"had" If what everyone's suspecting is true, at the very least, AtGames won't be holding a monopoly on that stuff anymore for the Western markets...which would be good.

AtGames is definitely out tho; on their own Twitter they said they're working with a "domestic partner"; since it's the Japanese branch, that would mean a Japanese company. Plus seeing all the blowback when AtGames were revealed to be on before, there's zero reason to think they're still on-board. Honestly, I don't see why they don't bring Retro-Bit in for the MD mini, they're already making those new controllers.

I watched the latest Rerez vid recently and they tried making it sound like the PS1 Mini's a cashgrab yet the NES/SNES Classics...weren't? The whole idea of Sony "wasting" money on a mini when they could be providing the games digitally on PS4 (which is true) is no different than how EVERYONE's been complaining about how poor Nintendo's been at getting Virtual Console going for the Switch. Even crazier they tried downplaying the nostalgia factor for it when it's pretty clear PS1 has at least as much nostalgia for it as NES and SNES (arguably more imo). Heck probably the only other system with stronger nostalgia going for it is the PS2.

Yeah AtGames is definitely out and hopefully M2 is involved in some capacity. They need to make this the definitive MegaDrive Mini tho b/c I'd actually prefer something for Saturn or Dreamcast at this point. Honestly, a "Sega Mini" would be the best bet imo; there's a lot of arcade games I'd want to play but they'd never do something like a Model 2 Mini or Model 3 Mini on their own.

Sort of, but with more expandability options in line with a desktop PC. It'd be "mini" in being about the size of an actual Saturn, but the user could populate the board w/ whatever CPU, RAM amount, storage (HDD, SSD etc) of their choice, within reason. Power supply too. The Odroid board's CPU can't be upgraded, so suppose you want to use it for multimedia instead of just gaming, it could be an issue. Unless I'm underestimating it's multi-tasking abilities. Things like RAM are soldered on, can't replace it. I'm thinking this as something more for those into building their own PCs who want to try a low-end/mid-end desktop custom build (say w/ Ryzen 5 or an i3 8100) in a console form factor, and they get a few games and an emulator as a bonus.

Now before I go any further, let me actually this: I am NOT talking about a Saturn mini the way we have w/ PS1 Mini or SNES Mini. I truly adore Sega's systems (except maybe the 32X, but even that has Tempo and Virtua Racing Deluxe) and think the Saturn's both a marvelous platform AND is finally starting to pick up some mass-market awareness....but I don't think a Saturn Mini would sell enough to justify the production costs. Basically, knowing the Saturn itself only did about 9-10 million LTD, and knowing these Minis aren't selling anywhere near the volume of their original runs anyway...I just don't see a $100 Saturn Mini doing like 1 million (maybe more if lucky) would justify the costs. That having been said, I think there's room for Sega to do something genuinely interesting. Let's be real here; these Minis have a pretty big deficit against mini-PCs; yeah the mini-PCs don't necessarily look all that good (Dreamcade Replay anyone?), but for the price of a PS1 Mini, w/ a Dreamcade you're at least getting a much better CPU and iGPU, so if you hack them, you can run games from later platforms relatively easily. However, mini-PCs are staunchly non-upgradable, aside from maybe expanding their internal storage. Once you get them, you're stuck with what's there, and if you need more power, you'd either buy the latest mini-PC or just get a refurbished desktop PC (or if you're willing to splurge, build a gaming PC from the ground-up). This is where I see Sega and whoever they partnered with, have a good opportunity. They already have embraced porting lots of games on PC, and Steam support for MegaDrive is amazing. They've embraced mods and the Workshop feature is a stroke of genius. I honestly doubt they could do anything in a closed-off "Saturn Mini" that could approach that level of flexibility and reliability, without strong compromises. So what I'm suggesting is that maybe Sega look into selling something like a mini-PC Saturn-inspired replica system case, have a populated motherboard with expandable RAM, CPU options, internal storage, a Saturn-style top loading disc drive (but obviously much faster than regular Saturn disc speed reads), maybe even pack in a Retro-Bit controller. The user would have to supply their own CPU, RAM, extended storage etc. but it has the usual things onboard like ethernet port, USB ports, a microSD slot, SATA III connector, maybe even a PCIe port or two built on the underside (or a Thunderbolt port for external GPU hubs). Maybe they can provide a few Saturn games pre-installed on internal NAND the user can then transfer to extended storage, and put a licensed version of something like Medafen on NOR Flash so it can execute from there effortlessly. Since the user is providing the big components (power supply, CPU, RAM, storage etc.) it'd essentially be like building a custom PC, but in a mini-PC form, targeted at Saturn fans whom, let's be honest, tend to already be more of the hardcore types and aren't probably shy about messing around w/ PCs given all the bs you had to do in the past to get stuff like Saturn and Model 3 running decently on systems of the past. They could easily come in at a great BOM and still sell for say $99-$120 (if the controller would add too much, then make a version w/ a pack-in controller and one without). That would mean a motherboard probably not spec'd for the most demanding i9s or Threadrippers, but those people are likely going to want to build something of a beast in a full-tower case. I'm just talking something that can support the affordable x86/x86-64 CPUs of the moment, support maybe lithium li-on battery (bonus points for being rechargeable and playable w/o being plugged in, saving on yet another power plug if the user'd want), and most of all nailing the Saturn aesthetic and feel, at an affordable price to those looking to jump in on building say a low-or-mid-spec'd PC in a mini form factor (or add a eGPU through Thunderbolt or a PCIe GPU if they want more power, both of them would require their own power supply however). Really interested to hear what you guys think; mini-PCs are only going to become more prolific as time goes on, but there'll always be power players who want the advantages of customization desktop and even laptop PCs offer. Something marrying them both, especially in a design inspired by a game console, could be a game-changer and it'd effectively be a perfect bridge between the mini consoles, mini PCs, and deskop or custom PCs.

"What is TecToy?" You're being willfully ignorant at this point. It was cute at first, but now kinda annoying. You could literally just Google info on Wiki or Sega Retro, or Youtube vids that go into the subject, in a few clicks.

I think it's the right time; I didn't grow up w/ NES or SNES a I had a MegaDrive/Genesis, but right after got me a PS1. Loved that thing, even when it broke on me after three months (the thing to hold the disc broke apart :/). If anything this is probably the right time to strike w/ a PS1 Mini especially if they want to give it a couple of years for a PS2 Mini later down the road; two years would be just enough breathing room. What I'm more concerned with atm is the game list; stuff like FFVII and Tekken 3 especially being there is pretty hype, but I couldn't care less for games like Twisted Metal or Destruction Derby, they just never really grabbed me. I also worry it's just going to be all the usual picks; it'd be nice if they, say, did a finished version of a prototype that's been sitting around like Nintendo did w/ Star Fox 2, or an official English translation for some cool but obscure JRPG that either has none or it's been taking forever (Moon RPG w/ English translation would immediately put this on my To-Buy list).

Yep, definitely for the best. Rumor has it they have M2 on this too, so we could be getting a really good MD mini after, what...almost two decades? xD

It would make more sense if they just had an online store you could purchase the games from and download to the system, and re-issue new runs of the system each holiday season if need be. B/c technically, they already have a store this could access if it has internet connectivity capability (which isn't even that expensive to add). It would just enable more choice and either way, they get their money so why not?

I hope UmJammer Lammy is up here instead of PaRapper; it's the better game by far and Lammy deserves the spotlight. Between this and finding out the MegaDrive Mini's not being done by AtGames anymore, and a probably N64 Mini coming, I guess this'll be the future of retro gaming if ROM sites keep coming under attack....welp, as long as the devices are actually QUALITY and they provide legal means to add more games (from the entire platform library) to the devices, maybe even do stuff like official translations for stuff left in Japan etc....I'd be okay with it tbh.

@Lost Dragon: Lol I'm really feeling you might be the sort that's a better fit to write such an article now; tho I can source around wayback machines and magazine scans, sourced articles online etc. I've got literally zero connections to any developers, let alone the old school ones. Probably wouldn't even know where to start in reaching them tbh. That said I'm definitely interested to see if there's more documented stuff out there which can shed a light on Sony's business practices w/ publishers and the press at the time, but I fear quite a few of those devs would not come forward out of concern over screwing up relations with current Sony. Even guys who've left recently like Andrew House, or people only working w/ them on contract terms like Mark Cerny, would dare delve into that can of worms. Regardless, and while it'd be a very gradual/ongoing thing I'd like to post whatever I can find in some thread, the all of us could just add info to it basically relevant to all that behind-the-scenes stuff from Sony, Sega, the press etc. at the time and then there'll be enough data there someday for someone to write a meaty article on the subject organizing it all together. But who knows, maybe someone'll come up on an old computer being randomly sold on eBay once belonging to a dev or some ex. Next Gen/EGM/GamePro etc. staff with emails on "special benefits" from the house of Crash Bandicoot.