phoboz
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Posts posted by phoboz
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8 hours ago, tonma said:
If we can do it on SNES, Megadrive, PCE or others less powerful hardware. I think the Jaguar can do it. The hardest work on each conversion is always the gfx and snd. So if you have time ...
Yes, but the whole point is to have a game comparable to the NeoGeo version, otherwise you can just play an existing downgraded port on a random 16-bit console.
The same goes for any arcade game of the 16-bit era (or even the late 8-bit era), as the arcade versions were usually far superior than the 16-bit console ports. Other classical examples are Golden Axe, Ghouls & Ghosts, Streetfighter II, Magic Sword, and even shooters like Rtype (probably an 8-bit arcade game) which had arcade quality on the PC Engine / Turbo Grafx.
Raiden on the Jaguar is a very good example on how this is properly done.
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21 hours ago, CyranoJ said:
I was actually able to play solos like that on the first gig I did over 30 years ago, but then some annoying person told me about musical scales.
E.g. you are not supposed to play any note you want in music.
Afterwards I always tried to get back to that raw, dissonant sounding, fast solos, but I never could completely. (Only got partly there by using diminished arpeggios)
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The NeoGeo has the same CPU as the NeoGeo, and the object processor can without problem draw the same kind of large colorful sprites.
Architecture wise the NeoGeo is very different from the Jaguar, as the NeoGeo is designed like two separate computers (one for graphics and another one for sound). Each of one of these computers has its own direct bus to large ROM.
On the Jaguar, all subsystems share the same bus, and data in ROM has to be unpacked (as a cartridge can only hold 6 MB) and stored unpacked in the 2 MB RAM (when needed). So this would require special programming techniques similar to the NeoGeo CD versions of these games. The main difference is that the NeoGeo CD has 4 MB of grahpics memory, while the Jaguar has 2 MB of RAM memory in total. So it might be a challange to fit all the grahpics data in the Jaguar RAM needed for a specific scene at the same time.
Note that Samurai Showdown on the 3DO has less fluid animation than the NeoGeo version (e.g. they removed half of the animation frames so both fighters could fit in RAM at the same time). So a similar approach may be used for a Jaguar port.
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17 hours ago, Lostdragon said:
I'm not sure what you mean about the teams lacking dedication
As I understood it, the Battlesphere team continued to develop the game without funding from Atari, even if this was a commercial project before.
Of course it's not possible to expect other commercial projects to continue without funding, and to release the game on a console pulled off the market. This is what makes the Battlesphere project a unique in my opinion, e.g. that it started as a commercial project, but ended up beeing released as a homebrew (regardless of what the authors think about the homebrew label)
If that is not dedication, I don't know how to define it?
I am not saying that the other teams lacked dedication, I only speculate how great it would have been if they had the same level of dedication as the Battlesphere team.
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31 minutes ago, agradeneu said:
10x at least? Anyone who actually played "Sturmwind" would agree
No way this would run on the Jaguar. They already pushed the system very hard with that sprite 2d engine, but they stated that "Native" is merely a subset of the new engine for the DC.
Nevertheless it is a big dissapointment that they couldn't finish what they stared.
Especially as the developers still seems to be making games for other systems.
Still no point to just sit here and complain, rather I can focus on making new games for the Jaguar instead.
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54 minutes ago, jgkspsx said:
Native turned into Sturmwind on the Dreamcast, which is a really great game. It would have been nice to have it on the Jag, though.
Yes, unfortunately they decided to finalize the game on a platform 3 times as powerful as the Jaguar. That is not really pushing the limits, which seems to be a constant argument everytime a new Jaguar game is released.
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1 hour ago, agradeneu said:
If I remember correctly, one of them diffamed/attacked devs who did emulators and free libraries, notably people of Jagware.
Not sure what you are trying to suggest...
Maybe they didn't like competition ??
I don't know, it was before my time as suggested earlier.
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2 hours ago, Zerosquare said:
See? According to the authors, their games aren't homebrew. So no reason to include them in the contest.
I also remember some other authors here that disliked that some their games were called homebrews.
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16 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:
Thru just gave up on being decent human beings.
I just think that it is better to have an objective view of the work they did, without the political aspects being assessed as part their product.
I don't think that anyone of us here fulfill the definition of being a saint ?
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6 minutes ago, LordKraken said:
They were and still are dedicated. And in the homebrew world, they delivered 2 masterpieces. Just not on the Jag ^^
Yes, but unfortunately they gave up on the Jaguar, and that is what counts here (according to my opinion)
The Battlesphere team didn't give up on the Jaguar, and that's why I think they deserve recognition.
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18 minutes ago, CyranoJ said:
Please don't motivate the battlesphere guys, the 'scene' is far better off without them.
Yes, but I somehow like their dedication, as they continued to develop their game in a small team, even after Atari stopped supporting them, and finally they managed to release the game long after the Jaguar was proclaimed dead.
I understand from you that have been active way before me that theses people might be a little bit hard to deal with? Personally I can accept that from teams who also deliver, as opposed to other people who just tend to talk about something great that never materialises.
Imagine how great it would have been if the teams behind Deathwatch, Conan and even the team behind Native demo would have been as dedicated as them?
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4 hours ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:
Definitely, good suggestion! ? We're looking into making some accommodations for previously released games without introducing too much competition for this year's games.
- James
Don't forget that there was a whole range of homebrew released way before 2022, from a lot of people not active in the scene anymore. Games by Orion Soft: Escape 2042, Alice's Mom's Rescue and Elansar. Mad Bodies by Force Design, and even Battlesphere Gold by 4Play published by ScatoLOGIC. This might be a great opportunity to motivate some of these people to get back in the scene, e.g. to start developing new games again?
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The SH-2 RISC processors of the 32x are probably on par with the RISC processors of the Jaguar, but the 68k CPU is just way to weak for this (otherwise we should already have seen a Genesis version of open lara). The only feasable option to get something playable on the Jaguar is to execute the 3D calculations on the RISC processor(s), and to use the Blitter for drawing polygons.
There is a major challange to do this compared to the 32x way: That is because the off-the-shelf SH-2 processors of the 32x have a gcc compiler for C/C++ code (e.g. the language that open lara is written in), while coding for the custom made RISC processors of the Jaguar means re-writing much of the code in pure assembly. I am not saying anything can't be run on the 68k, but certainly not all the heavy calculations should be there.
It will be very interesting to see if this can ever be realised, otherwise I do not expect to see much performance increase on the Jaguar version?
By the way, is there a Dremcast version of this?
Dreamcast has the even more powerful SH-4 processor and higher resolution graphics than the PSX. I would expect that an enhanced versions is possible there.
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1 hour ago, CyranoJ said:
The lighting is being done using RMW/CRY
OK found a related thread to help me understand more.
https://atariage.com/forums/topic/226358-16-bit-rgb-vs-16-bit-cry/
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1 hour ago, Cyprian said:
is that the lighting lamp a hardware effects?
it looks cool and I first time I see practical use of that OP mixing colors (I guess)
I am guessing it is, that's why I think it's so cool. @CyranoJ is the one that can give the proper answer.
It's only the Blitter that can do that, and it's a challange to use that (a lot) in real-time, so that's why I also wonder if that could be used as an animated effect (e.g. done in real-time). I understand it's already done on the lit up area around the main character.
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I must say that I love what you do here (even if you sometimes see me as your rival now). Your game has a quite unique look to it, and I hope it will also be fun to play.
On the lamp, have you considered having an interactive, animated lamp?
For example if you hit it, it will swing back and forth for a while, including the area it lights up?
This would give a very dynamic feel to the environment.
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Only 5 copies left at Songbird, note that European fans may order directly from me:
http://tjocktv.se/product/asteroite-atari-jaguar-pre-order-march-2022/
UK fans may order here:
https://peleiadesshop.mydrobo.com/-
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Yes I played around with this for weeks now, it turns out that the instability in the 3D demo comes from these libraries, most likely the startup code in jagrt.s.
This was probably not production ready code, and I wonder if the libraries used in Hoverstrike CD was modified (e.g. the ones missing from it's source tree)? Because the renderer interface was modified.
We are using a completely different support library now (e.g. the Removers'), and the renderer was also modified to plug easily into this library. It's much more stable now, with cockpit overlay and music at 44kHz, we may be publish the modified renderer in the future? It works with much higher quality music in this compared to a maxed out 2D game, so the busload is not huge.
I also tried to use multiple objects in the scene, and it runs at a reasonable framerate with 3 different textured objects, perhaps 5, or 6 without textures. The renderer is re-loaded to the GPU for every object, but the overhead of loading it is negileble compared to the complexity of the 3D models. Now it may crash with 3 or more textured objects, but this might be due to a memory leakage problem that I will look into soon.
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This vote was a good initiative, because now we have showed the world that there are some competing parties in the Jaguar scene as well.
Hopefully this will encourage everyone to work harder, and that in the end there will be better games?
Now Asteroite is already nominated for the Jaguar homebrew awards of 2022, and finally we managed to convince the arrangers that it makes sense to also include the Jaguar in this competition.
It looks like there will be a bright future for the 64-bit homebrew scene...
PS. I hope that we can wrap this up as friends now that I have given my speech for winning this specific poll? Thank you to everyone involved in Kings of Edom!
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2 hours ago, agradeneu said:
so it looks like you did not care much about it in the first place?!
That's not the nicest way to credit other people for their work...
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1 hour ago, CyranoJ said:
Accept the victory graciously instead of nit-picking away at the ones you didn't win?
I belive @agradeneu was part of Kings of Edom as well, and I credit him for it, no question about that. I hope that everyone can feel proud about what they have done?
I had an idea that I belived in, and did it that way. If the length of a specific sound progression does not fulfill someone else's definition of what they think a soundtrack is, then I don't mind.
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3 hours ago, agradeneu said:
Technically, the implementation of music on the Jaguar requires some extra effort in mastering the hardware.
I get the impression that most, if not all music in Jaguar homebrew games are Amiga Pro Tracker .mod music. The mastering of the Jaguar hardware part was already done by the person who wrote the sound driver for playing these files.
Actually the JaguarSDK comes with a FM synth using 8 voices of polyphony. Did anyone try to use that in a homebrew?
I fired up the synthdemo example (from the JaguarSDK), and notice it plays exactly the same tune as in the Deathmatch demo:
Note that the poor sound quality in this video is probably due to the limitation of the VHS recording. When listening on the Jaguar using headphones, it sounds very clean.
Seriously, @Eternal-Krauser and myself want to explore this possibility for a future game.
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Yes I like the music of Last Stike too, and it is very suitable for that game. I also like the music I have heard from Gravitic Mines, especially the tune in this trailer:
Still it is impossible for all of us to agree, so I do want to point out that there may be different opinions:
The important thing is that you do it the way it feels right for you, and for that specific game. What I just want to say is that it felt a certain way for me in Kings of Edom, but it felt differently for me and @Eternal-Krauser in Asteroite. E.g. we saw that there was a specific type of music that would contribute positevely to the overall atmosphere in Asteroite, while I wanted a more dynamic approach using ambient sounds, and percussions in Kings of Edom.
@agradeneu I remember that you do proposed some other type of sonic image for Kings of Edom, but maybe it would have been easier for me if you have had any tangible examples of what type of music that could have been suitable for this game?
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No way this would run on the Jaguar. They already pushed the system very hard with that sprite 2d engine, but they stated that "Native" is merely a subset of the new engine for the DC.
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Neo Geo to Jaguar ports in 3,2,1 GO!
in Atari Jaguar
Posted · Edited by phoboz
They did it in a very clever way on the Jaguar Native Demo. Graphics data is unpacked and loaded into RAM on the go during the level. It probably works for a constant speed (quite slow) scrolling game, but in a fighting game you would notice lag when you pull off certain moves?
If anyone played Mortal Kombat II on the PC with less than 8 Megabyte of RAM, you know what I am talking about? On the PC however, data is read from the harddrive (even if this was a CDROM game, everything was copied to the harddrive). It would have been to slow to load from the CD during gameplay, and the question is if you could reach a similar speed attempting to unpack data from cartridge ROM on the fly. I think that Mortal Kombat II was really not that playable with to little RAM, even if they probably tried to find a clever way to cache and load game data during gameplay.
Note that the 16-bit console versions of Mortal Kombat II had severely crippled graphics/animations, and did not look at all like the arcade version.