Jump to content
JagMX

Tomb Raider & Swagman for the Jag

Recommended Posts

What does it matter what i say about anything Jaguar wise?

Not having a go at you here Jeff, but it's gotten real stale, real quickly this sad little game that's being played out.

It goes a little something like this:

I will look into press claims of a Jaguar game planned or annouced for the Jaguar,on behalf of sites like Atarimania,Unseen64,GTW etc
, basically any site interested.

What i'm looking to establish is if the press were actually telling the full story.. basic things like did development ever start on said title?, if not,it's not a true lost game.

Which formats were the screen shots supplied to the press,taken from and we're they actual in game screens or just mock ups created for press and potential publishers?

When either Atari themselves or indeed just the press, announced said games, had contracts even been signed, or had the press just assumed game would be appearing on Jaguar?

With me so far?


Credit my sources each and every time.


Then along comes kgramr and chums, saying,actually that's not the full story...

Or..the classic..Lost Dragon/Furthest Man From Home from Devon (not sure about his current fixation with my home county..but hey diddle dee..) claimed prototypes didn't exist..case here Freelancer 2120, reality was i said PC prototype was furthest along,so most likely source of the screenshots used..

And now having made the case for basis of screens used by Press to showcase the supposed Jaguar CD version, which Andrew Smith having told AEO,Soul Star was the only Jaguar game in development, proves was never STARTED on Jaguar...

K starts claiming i said it was never annouced.

Utter bloody cobblers, explaining Edge alone annouced it, in what form and who paid them to produce the supplement, Atari, made clear it was annouced for Jaguar.

He really needs to learn the difference between someone investigating press announcements,which people clung to as gods honest proof game had been started on Jaguar then moved to more powerful systems and actions that see him banned from forums galore, blocked on folks twitter feeds and kicked off FB groups.

He can slander my research till hell sees the beast from the east arrive there, it was finished months ago.

Since K is the one doing the research these days, ask him for the proof behind his claims is my best advice.

I've put my finds and email exchanges in the public domain, let people decide for themselves, so let's see something more ..substantial than magazine previews from him for once.

He uses Twitter and FB..2 tools i didn't so it shouldn't be that challenging.

Even given him a list of names to follow up...

So for starters. .proof of advanced version of I War engine being used on Jaguar Freelancer..

It wasn't in the RetroGamer article it was claimed to be made clear in..No one from Imagitec Design i spoke to knew anything..

Then we can move onto claims he made such as Clint Thompson having code for Phear and Conan..

Rebellion definitely having Legions Of The Undead code, not it might still exist with I.T department..

And so on and so on.

I apparently don't dig as deep as he does.. Edited by Lost Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Um.. . ok. So it was only announced then. Not ever put in development hense no build existing. That makes sense. I dont know anything about the media coverage or what WAS and was NOT reliable info in the 90s. I barely remember aeeing AANYTHING Jaguar related in the magazines.
Sorry to piss you off so bad. I was just sharing. I really DONT like Tomb Raider. Never have.

So so far the only ACTUAL game ever put in production on the Jag seems to have been Soul Star.

But others were announced whether the sources were reliable or just hype.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought for years that Tomb Raider was up-and-running on the Jaguar when the system was canceled, based on an interview with a game tester. Re-reading the interview, he was talking about Highlander 2: http://www.ataritimes.com/index.php?ArticleIDX=499

 

Wow, creating a sequel to Highlander, huh? Interesting that they thought the lack of texture mapped characters was what was really wrong with the first game...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Wow, creating a sequel to Highlander, huh? Interesting that they thought the lack of texture mapped characters was what was really wrong with the first game...

Wasnt it going to be a trilogy? With part 2 being a direct continuation to the first game. And part 3 being a one on one 3d fighter.

And yeah, seems like Atari at the time tought texture mapping could save any of their games. Screw the framerate and gameplay, we gotta look like the Sony!

Edited by sd32

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
LD you keep talking like you're some big researcher yeah you won't let Scott Legrand defend himself or you wouldn't talk to Lance Lewis about the other side of the Rebellion story.

You got slanted research.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LD you keep talking like you're some big researcher yeah you won't let Scott Legrand defend himself or you wouldn't talk to Lance Lewis about the other side of the Rebellion story.

You got slanted research.

 

Ironiest. Irony. Ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sadly JagChris...


You simply keep talking.

And that's all it is..TALK.



I've watched you go on some crusade over Rebellion not watching AVP movies..

Then there's been your claims ATD and Probe were lazy.

You slander Mike Diskett for his conversions of Syndicate and Theme Park on Jaguar..

Yet you want to mouth off about who I should of interviewed?

Lance Lewis has been interviewed, given his personal side of the Rebellion story, i put questions to Rebellion about why titles like AVP on PSP and Checkered Flag turned out so poorly, so i didn't go in with any bias.

Scott Le Grand has been all over AEO and Interviewed in RetroGamer Magazine, but again, you know this.


You keep making out you have some amazing understanding of coding on systems like the Jaguar, yet last time i saw you on here, you couldn't even grasp what a true Voxel engine was and we had to provide quotes from people who had worked on Robinson's Requiem to help guide you...and point out likes of Fallen Angel and Phase Zero didn't use true Voxel engines either..

Mouth open, eyes shut it seems.

Physician heal thy self.. Edited by Lost Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I will deal with critiscm JagChris put my way:

When you say i wouldn't talk to Lance Lewis for,as you put it,the other side of the Rebellion story..what exactly was i supposed to discover that wasn't covered in the existing interview he did with The Atari Times?

Lance voiced the fact Rebellion's coders/artists etc hadn't seen the Alien or Predator films till after the game was finished, likes of myself pointed out they had full access to film and Dark Horse comic book material, from 20th Century Fox etc.

Plus Andrew Whittaker, who had worked with H.R Gieger,was on-board as an adviser..

Then lance himself admits in the same interview,he had no idea what Legions Of The Undead was..yet in your eyes he is THE person i should of contacted to get an alternative view on Rebellion and their Jaguar development..


I also didn't need to chat to him to ask if your mates claims that Hoverstike on Jaguar CD offered a massive improvement in frame rate as he claimed,as lance covered that as well, this time in his interview with Good Deal Games:

MT> You were the lead designer for both Atari Jaguar Hoverstrike games. Do you have a particular preference towards one version or another?
LL> Not really, but technically speaking, the CD version had a few extra perks. For instance the engineering crew managed to boost up the frame rate by a stunning 2-3 fps... And some of the terrain textures we were able to load as high res. Oh and the soundtrack was CD-quality instead of MIDI. Seriously though, I always felt the game was unnecessarily trashed in the magazines and flamed in newsgroups. It may not have been a GREAT game, but a lot of people put a lot of time and effort into making that game ship.

But he's also described Hoverstike as a POS..so his view seemed slanted.

Do pop back if you have any valid points to make based on Swagman or Tomb Raider actually being seriously considered on Jaguar by like actual Core Design teams.

But no, i have no shame in admitting I only did interviews in my spare time out of general interest and on behalf of community sites that rely on people putting their own time in to help out..

Nor was i going to waste Lance's valuable time asking questions we already knew the answers for..

And i wasn't going to touch any Battlesphere coder or artist as i had zero personal experience of the game..

Pretty self explanatory I thought on all accounts.. Edited by Lost Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasnt it going to be a trilogy? With part 2 being a direct continuation to the first game. And part 3 being a one on one 3d fighter.
And yeah, seems like Atari at the time tought texture mapping could save any of their games. Screw the framerate and gameplay, we gotta look like the Sony!


After reading an interview with Missile Command 3D coder, Martin Brownlow, he implied it was Atari who wanted Supercross 3D texture mapped, even though they knew it would cripple the frame rate..

Well, that might not of been the case.

I was 'chatting' with a YT poster who'd done a video looking at improvements the game needed..

He said he had been in contact with the games coder (who did not want to be interviewed), but he had claimed it was Tiertex, not Atari who wanted the texture mapping...

The plot thickens..

But so much for slanted research, i'm more than happy to pass on alternative views to what had been established.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Um.. . ok. So it was only announced then. Not ever put in development hense no build existing. That makes sense. I dont know anything about the media coverage or what WAS and was NOT reliable info in the 90s. I barely remember aeeing AANYTHING Jaguar related in the magazines.
Sorry to piss you off so bad. I was just sharing. I really DONT like Tomb Raider. Never have.
So so far the only ACTUAL game ever put in production on the Jag seems to have been Soul Star.
But others were announced whether the sources were reliable or just hype.


Sorry..power cuts galore here..beast from the east has hit the UK and yet again we are totally unprepared for snow I winter

Broadband been on/off since i got up.

You haven't Pissed me off, far from it.

It just gets bloody tiresome jumping through the same old hoops when dealing with the nonsense Kgramr starts pulling....then it's the waiting game for Jagchris to appear with same old rubbish we cleared up months ago..


Anywho..you need to bear in mind this was a major development period for Core Design, who had previousily been an Amiga/Sega etc developer after the ST died off.


Suddenly there were a lot of new formats appearing..Jaguar, Jaguar CD,3DO,32X, Saturn, PC CD, Playstation etc.

No one wanted to back the wrong horse and Core were investing heavily in new technology.

After chatting to various coders,artists etc..it becomes clear the company was a pretty open/flexible place to work..

A lot of talk about maybe we could convert this title from the Mega CD to something more powerful some of it went onto be started, some never making it past the ideas stage and some abandoned when hardware had been fully appraised.

Jon Hillard, who was approached by Toby Gard to be part of the T.R team has effectively backed up Richard Barclay's point about Tomb Raider on Jaguar never being even discussed..

But pointed out there was a lot of pre-production experimental work done on fundementals for the game..The camera system and dual hand aiming etc before any coding actually started on game itself.

So it seems odd likes of Jeremy Heath-Smith for example, might of said something off the cuff to any jurnolist without Richard knowing about it, regarding possibilty of TR heading for the Jaguar.

From what he told Eurogamer..It seems he wanted the game specifically built for hardware like the Playstation, Saturn and PC CD.

Andrew Smith pointed out because the team working on the Jaguar found the hardware quite difficult to use and they were coding under pressing deadlines, they basically ported the main Soul Star code over from the Mega CD.

So if things had been different for Atari and Core Design..latter not being sold. .teams split up..

It's reasonable to suggest more Mega CD to Jaguar ports.

But both Swagman and Tomb Raider were built from the ground up for newer sy stems than the Mega CD.

I've found no evidence to suggest Jaguar was ever viewed as anything but a system to port older titles to, just improve the visuals on etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which is kinda sad. :(

It is..

I would of loved to of seen Core Design embrace the Jaguar hardware and bring out sequels,not updated versions, of titles like Battlecorps and Corporation..Cybercop to our US readers.

I would of loved to of seen Banshee on Jaguar,rather than CD32.

New Flood?

Jaguar could of done with a few more original 2D platformers rather than ports from other systems.


Surprised people weren't aware of the other,false rumour regarding Tomb Raider that was doing the rounds a few years ago..it started life as Rick Dangerous III.. Edited by Lost Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing we cleared up months ago LD was that you're only willing to do research if it supports your agenda

 

Lost Dragon's research/follow-through is excellent. Anyone else is free to do the same if they want to support their own agenda (and I'm not agreeing Lost Dragon has a bias in any way based on the interviews).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes he produces interesting info. And his follow through is indeed excellent when it supports his bias.

 

Facts from the sources themselves are biased?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
A few things to clear up JagChris, just before i go any further..

It's Mike Diskett.. Not Diskette.

There was nothing 'supposed' about him attempting to convert Magic Carpet to the Jaguar CD off his own back i should add, so for you to start mouthing off the task should of been given to someone else or he should of waited until he had a better understanding of the hardware, i find rather arrogant on your part and insulting to Mike..

The way you present it,there were enough other coders out there who could of done a better job..let me guess..HVS?

Well simple fact is,until you can name 1 or more people who were actually willing to at least attempt it..i wouldn't say a great deal more about people like myself having agendas.

Mine was quite simple..find out if anyone had attempted it,if so,how far along did it get and why was it abandoned?.

Mike was kind enough to explain everything and yet apparently that wasn't good enough for you:

http://www.3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3770

Just remind me..how many commercial 2D games have you coded,that had to be out by a strict time?

But that's not all is it?

You moan about CJ and Piko Interactive just doing ST ports on Jaguar, when you want significant original post mortem releases..yet i don't see you coding any yourself.

Throwing around quotes from other coders, waxing on about HVS development tools etc etc..yes, as well as laying into coders like Mike,Rebellion,Probe,ATD etc without asking any of them yourself the story behind the games in question development process

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing we cleared up months ago LD was that you're only willing to do research if it supports your agenda


Given that even your tumble weed 3DO forum hosts 1 of my interviews and my research has been used by:ST Gamer, Pro Atari Magazine, Atari I.O forum, Atarimania,Classic Console Magazine,Unseen64,GTW..etc etc.

Looked into titles on formats such as:

(The) A8/C64/MSX/Panther/ST/PS1/PS2/Saturn/Lynx/PC CD/Konix Multisystem /Sega Mega CD/Vic 20/Dragon 32/Oric/Acorn A3000/GC/GBA etc etc

Maybe you can suggest what my agenda is and to which format and on who's behalf?

Please..i would love to hear your answer.

The sheer entertainment value alone would be immense.

This is better than your confusion over what a true Voxel engine was..and that was very entertaining reading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lost Dragon's research/follow-through is excellent. Anyone else is free to do the same if they want to support their own agenda (and I'm not agreeing Lost Dragon has a bias in any way based on the interviews).


Appreciated Bill and this is the most laughable aspect of people like JagChris, kgramr etc attempting to discredit my pitiful research..

I literally found people,emailed em..

That was it.

No Skype interviews,no in person interviews (though some were offered), no Facebook,no Twitter..

Yet somehow, being involved in the axis of evil as i clearly are :-)) And with my slanted research and armed with agendas galore..

I managed to notch up a few finds before i grew tired of it.

What i wasn't going to do was run around asking people who'd answered the Q's i had wanted answering,the same questions,just to say behold...this is mine..my precious..

Nor was i going to skip merrily through the Internet going after coders like Scott, whom commercial magazines like RetroGamer had already interviewed, just to say..

Hey, like,dude, i've never played your game, not even at a Retro event, but can we talk at length about it?.

Because it'd be a case of the tail wagging the dog..

I'd have no idea what to ask as no idea if game lives upto the hype.

What was i supposed to ask?

What's yer thoughts on people being encouraged to download pirate copies of the game and play on a Jaguar emulator?

I mean really...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Appreciated Bill and this is the most laughable aspect of people like JagChris, kgramr etc attempting to discredit my pitiful research..
 

 

Eh, consider it a badge of honor to be accused of bias. I know I've been accused of being in the tank for, alternately, Microsoft, Apple, Commodore, Atari, Nintendo, Sony, etc., at various times. Such accusations seem to only appear when I've said or stated something that said accuser takes offense to about a particular platform they're a die hard fan of, even if it's a literal fact. Funny how that works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes he produces interesting info. And his follow through is indeed excellent when it supports his bias.

Just let go of the spade Chris..We will do it together if it helps..

Slowly counting backwards..

5.....4.....3.....2....and RELEASE.

As entertaining as these exchanges are for many i'm sure, they are tiresome and
the research in any of it's many forms wasn't done to stroke my ego..or fuel any agenda.

It was simply done as other sites/publications wanted credible material and people deserved to have somerealistic idea of why games they had been looking forward to playing, never arrived.

Instead in many cases, it, like so much else others invest time and money into, to bring to the Retro community, is used by the same old voices for the same old wailing.

It's become the modern day version of Ahab and the White Whale.

Don't like my stuff..?

Put the time and effort (you will need both), into finding and sharing alternative people to offer more opinions and insights.

Be part of the community looking to preserve and share information.

Bloody hell man..We are loosing industry folks at such a rate of knots as it is..

Once they are gone..so is the information.

Easier though just to talk sh*te about what's been found though I guess...? Edited by Lost Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh, consider it a badge of honor to be accused of bias. I know I've been accused of being in the tank for, alternately, Microsoft, Apple, Commodore, Atari, Nintendo, Sony, etc., at various times. Such accusations seem to only appear when I've said or stated something that said accuser takes offense to about a particular platform they're a die hard fan of, even if it's a literal fact. Funny how that works.

Isn't it always the case though?

In the early days i was labelled a Jaguar fan boy after voicing my concerns over a shocking and poorly researched Doom article in RetroGamer magazine..

32X/Jaguar versions mixed up..same with PS1/Saturn versions...

Irony was i had bought Doom on..Jaguar..GBA..PS1 and PC..

Then i had apparently sent Death Threats..

Can't of been mine..not a damn thing said about awful punctuation, Grammar. .my trademarks.

These days apparently it's myself living in a fantasy world.

You know..dreamer that i am, actually contacting people, rather than just going off press claims (I know..What am i thinking? ) and sharing the information as it comes in..no edits..nothing.

I don't even ask for money (gasp) or freebies in return..

I'll burn in hell at this rate, for sure. Edited by Lost Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can we wrap this up..Necrobumped thread as is..

So, basically then...

Not keen on Piko Interactive/CJ's ST to Jaguar ports or commercial 2D/3D games from the Jaguar era?

Learn to code and make your own games.

As for the commercial titles .start asking people from the industry why they turned out the way they did, you might be surprised at what your told.

Don't just say ohh they were lazy/poor coders/should of used tools from HVS..

That helps no one and puts more industry folk off talking.

Basically..you've seen what we can do..Over to you..Let's see your coding skills..your research. .it's the only way the community will continue to grow.

Work with the community. .don't stand at the gates saying..heathens.

I don't want to speak for Piko or C.J..but i am getting sick of defending my own work..

Plus reading moans online be it forums or YT channels from folks slagging off likes of Switchblade, Xenon II, Jeff Minter stuff being avaiable on Jaguar because Wahhhh it's not 3D.

No it's not..But it's far better gaming than an awful lot of what was served up when i actually owned a Jaguar..it's legally obtained and done with original creators blessing and your getting software support long after Atari themselves abandoned the format. Edited by Lost Dragon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...