Jaguar vs. 32X?

[Gunstar]

There are no games on the 32X that run slower than 30FPS?!?!? PLEASE! I have a 32X and there are quite a few that run at about 15FPS. There is NO WAY Metalhead is running at more than 15FPS just for starters! I see lots of exageration in this whole thread both for and against respective systems. Just drop it guys. There'll be plenty of time to prove the Jaguar is superior when the new Dev. tools are done. And just so it's known, the 68000 in the genesis runs at 8Mhz, the one in the Jaguar runs at >13Mhz. and then there is the plain facts that the 32X is either running on the Genesis 16-bit buss, or no better than a 32-bit buss of it's own, whereas the Jaguar is running on a 64-bit buss, which means twice the info at once right there. The buss rate of the 32X ws said to be 42MB per second, the Jaugar's is 106MB per second. I con't care about who's saying what, and regardless of what games show, the Jaguar beats the 32X in speed and power as-is without even taking into consideration it's dev. tools. This whole argument that the 32X can possibly be more powerful or faster is just obsurd. And I've seen the best and worst on both systems and the Jaguar's best is better than the 32X's best in the current game libraries. Regardless IF either could "handle" the games of the other's or not. The 32X is an impressive system add-on, but there is NO way anyone will ever convince me or anyone with half a brain that it's better than the Jaguar in system power and speed. No one has to look any further than the factual system specs of these two systems to KNOW the truth. PERIOD. Rev. bob can reply with his ridiculous claims to this post all he want's but I'm not even going to read or reply to this thread anymore, becuase I won't dignify this crap anymore.

 

Sega 32X Technical Specs

 

 

 

 

PROCESSOR:

 

Twin Hitachi (SH2) 32 bit RISC processors

clock speed of 23 MHZ

CO-PROCESSOR(s): Genesis 68000 @ 7.61MHz, Z80 @ 4MHz, Genesis 32X VDP Video processor

50,000 texture-mapped polygons/sec

texture mapping - hardware scaling and rotation

 

VIDEO:

 

32,768 simultaneous colours on screen

Genesis resolution

Overlaying over existing Genesis/SegaCD video

MEMORY:

 

512k (4 MBit) additional RAM to Genesis/SegaCD memory

AUDIO:

 

Stereo PCM chip

audio mixing with Genesis sound

additional 2 channels (therefore 14 all together?)

I/O: Same as Genesis

 

32X upgradable; can upgrade the 32X STORAGE: CD-ROM if you have a SegaCD

speed same as SegaCD

compatible with audio CD, CD&G, SegaCD and JVC X'eye Cartridge

compatible with Genesis model 1 & 2, JVC X'eye –

can store save game/score information (as with many Genesis games)

 

Genesis co-system specs

 

Model Number: MK-1601 (r1), MK-1631 (r2).

CPU: Motorola 68000 at 7.61 MHz

1 MByte (8 Mbit) ROM Area

64 KByte RAM Area

Co-Processor: Z80 @ 4 MHz (Not Present in MK-1631)

Controls PSG (Programmable Sound Generator) & FM Chips

8 KBytes of dedicated Sound Ram

Graphics:

64 simultaneous colors of 512 color pallete.

Pixel resolution: 320 x 224

VDP (Video Display Processor)

Dedicated video display processor

Controls playfield & sprites

64 KBytes of dedicated VRAM (Video Ram)

64 x 9-bits of CRAM (Color RAM)

3 Planes: 2 scrolling playfields, 1 sprite plane

Sound:

PSG (TI 76489 chip)

FM chip (Yamaha YM 2612)

6-channel stereo

8 KBytes RAM

Signal/Noise Ratio: 14dB

 

 

 

Atari Jaguar Specs

 

Physical Dimensions 9.5" x 10" x 2.5" (without JagCD)

RAM 2MB of fast page mode DRAM 4 chips x 512K each

Maximum Resolution 800 x 576 16.8 million colors

Rendering Speed 850 million pixels/second

Data Bus Speed 106.4 MB/second

Processors 5 processors contained in 3 chips: "Tom", "Jerry", and Motorolla 68000

 

"Tom"

 

750,000 transistors, 208 pins Graphics Processing Unit (processor #1)

32-bit RISC architecture (32/64 processor)

64 registers of 32 bits wide Rated at 26.591 MIPS

4K bytes of zero wait-state internal SRAM

Performs a wide range of high-speed graphic effects

Programmable Object Processor (processor #2)

64-bit RISC architecture

64-bit wide registers

Programmable processor that can act as a variety of different video architectures, such as a sprite engine, a pixel-mapped display, a character-mapped system, and others Blitter (processor #3)

64-bit RISC architecture 64-bit wide registers Performs high-speed logical operations Hardware support for Z-buffering and Gouraud shading DRAM memory controller 64-bits Accesses the DRAM directly

 

"Jerry"

 

600,000 transistors, 144 pins Digital Signal Processor (processor #4)

32 bits (32-bit registers)

Rated at 26.6 MIPS

Same RISC core as the Graphics Processing Unit

Not limited to sound generation 8K bytes of zero wait-state internal SRAM CD-quality sound (16-bit stereo)

Number of sound channels limited by software

Two DAC's convert digital data to analog sound signals

Full stereo capabilities Wavetable synthesis, FM synthesis A clock control block, incorporating timers and a UART Joystick control

 

Motorola 68000 (processor #5)

 

Runs at 13.295MHz

General Purpose control processor

Ports Cartridge slot / expansion port

32-bits. Game cartridges can hold up to 6MB of uncompressed information (up to 84MB with compression)

RF video output

Video edge connector (video/audio output)

Supports NTSC and PAL; provides S-Video, Composite, and RGB outputs; accessible by optional add-on connector

2 controller ports

Digital Signal Processor port Includes high-speed synchronous serial input/output

 

. The Jaguar was capable of doing the following visual effects:

 

High-speed scrolling (Object Processor).

- Texture mapping on two- and three-dimensional objects (GPU and Blitter).

- Morphing one object into another object (GPU).

- Scaling, rotation, distortion, and skewing of sprites and images (Object Processor).

- Lighting and shading from single and multiple light sources (GPU and Blitter).

- Transparency (Object Processor).

- "Rendering" up to 850 million one-bit pixels/second (35 million 24-bit pixels/second, 26 million 32-bit pixels/second), or 50 million Goroud shaded pixels/second. "Rendering" is believed to mean transferring a pixel from a frame buffer to the screen.

- Sprites of "unlimited" size and quantity. Realistically, sprites can be over 1,000 pixels wide/tall, and the number of sprites allowed is limited by processor cycles instead of a fixed value in hardware (Object processor).

- Programmable screen resolutions, from 160 to 800 pixels per line. The resolution can be increased even further with additional hardware up to a reported 1350 pixels per line.

Edited July 15, 2007 by Gunstar

[fishsandwich]

I can stop at DOOM. the Jagaur version of doom is in every way superior to the 32x.

color speed full screen display even John Carmack of id software said the Jaguar is

HIS favorite version.

 

Now, now. It's no fair bringing up DOOM for the 32x and comparing it to the superior Jaguar version. The 32x version was a rush job, plain and simple. You KNOW that the 32x is more than capable of doing a very nice port of DOOM. There simply wasn't enough time to make it happen before the launch date. Sega needed DOOM for launch so it rushed out an inferior product.

 

It's like comparing the gameplay of FFL to that of VF. I believe FFL could have been far prettier than VF and possibly even played as well but the game was rushed and the programmers weren't paid so we ended up with a shite game.

 

Got news for you, Doom on the Jaguar was a mere "rush-job" port from the PC too, with NO optimization for the Jaguar at all, John Carmack said it himself. So they are PERFECT examples to compare, both rush jobs that BOTH could have been done better, so we can ignore that and compare them both as rush jobs on their respective hardware.

 

Got news for YOU. It's WAY more complex than that. Two different platforms, two different versions, two different programming teams, two different time frames. Duh!

[JagChris]

I can stop at DOOM. the Jagaur version of doom is in every way superior to the 32x.

color speed full screen display even John Carmack of id software said the Jaguar is

HIS favorite version.

 

Now, now. It's no fair bringing up DOOM for the 32x and comparing it to the superior Jaguar version. The 32x version was a rush job, plain and simple. You KNOW that the 32x is more than capable of doing a very nice port of DOOM. There simply wasn't enough time to make it happen before the launch date. Sega needed DOOM for launch so it rushed out an inferior product.

 

It's like comparing the gameplay of FFL to that of VF. I believe FFL could have been far prettier than VF and possibly even played as well but the game was rushed and the programmers weren't paid so we ended up with a shite game.

 

Got news for you, Doom on the Jaguar was a mere "rush-job" port from the PC too, with NO optimization for the Jaguar at all, John Carmack said it himself. So they are PERFECT examples to compare, both rush jobs that BOTH could have been done better, so we can ignore that and compare them both as rush jobs on their respective hardware.

 

Got news for YOU. It's WAY more complex than that. Two different platforms, two different versions, two different programming teams, two different time frames. Duh!

 

Uh, same programming team as the PC for the Jag version. The boys at id did it themselves for the Jag version. Romero and Carmack included. Sorry to rain on your parade their bubba.

Edited July 15, 2007 by JagChris

[Gorf]

Please! Gunstar, JagChris....stop confusing people with the facts....that's

just so insensitive!

[fishsandwich]

I can stop at DOOM. the Jagaur version of doom is in every way superior to the 32x.

color speed full screen display even John Carmack of id software said the Jaguar is

HIS favorite version.

 

Now, now. It's no fair bringing up DOOM for the 32x and comparing it to the superior Jaguar version. The 32x version was a rush job, plain and simple. You KNOW that the 32x is more than capable of doing a very nice port of DOOM. There simply wasn't enough time to make it happen before the launch date. Sega needed DOOM for launch so it rushed out an inferior product.

 

It's like comparing the gameplay of FFL to that of VF. I believe FFL could have been far prettier than VF and possibly even played as well but the game was rushed and the programmers weren't paid so we ended up with a shite game.

 

Got news for you, Doom on the Jaguar was a mere "rush-job" port from the PC too, with NO optimization for the Jaguar at all, John Carmack said it himself. So they are PERFECT examples to compare, both rush jobs that BOTH could have been done better, so we can ignore that and compare them both as rush jobs on their respective hardware.

 

Got news for YOU. It's WAY more complex than that. Two different platforms, two different versions, two different programming teams, two different time frames. Duh!

 

Uh, same programming team as the PC for the Jag version. The boys at id did it themselves for the Jag version. Romero and Carmack included. Sorry to rain on your parade their bubba.

 

Uh, I'm talking about the 32x version versus the Jaguar version. Where did the PC version come in? Are you even paying attention to anything? Reading in fundamental, bubba.

 

You're saying that the guys at id programmed the Jaguar version of DOOM? No wonder it's better than the 32x version. Thanks for clarifying that. Yet another reason why DOOM for the 32x shouldn't be compared to the superior Jaguar version.

 

What do you think, Gorf? This thread contains a lot of theoretical musings and you seem to be a competent and knowledgeable programer. Do you think the 32x could have done a far better job with DOOM had it been programmed with a better understanding of the 32x hardware and with more time? Doesn't the same hold true for the Jaguar version?

Edited July 15, 2007 by fishsandwich

[Rev. Rob]

Yawn!(the only reply you will get from now on)

 

 

That's what I expect from a liar whose been proven wrong. Thanks for conceeding the point.

[Rev. Rob]

There are no games on the 32X that run slower than 30FPS?!?!? PLEASE! I have a 32X and there are quite a few that run at about 15FPS. There is NO WAY Metalhead is running at more than 15FPS just for starters! I see lots of exageration in this whole thread both for and against respective systems.

 

Metal Head is running at 30 fps according to its specs. If you can offer a test that I don't know about that says otherwise, please let me know. Metal Head is pretty smooth, except for when the level is changing.

 

 

And just so it's known, the 68000 in the genesis runs at 8Mhz, the one in the Jaguar runs at >13Mhz.

 

It's plenty enough power to run secondary functions.

 

and then there is the plain facts that the 32X is either running on the Genesis 16-bit buss, or no better than a 32-bit buss of it's own, whereas the Jaguar is running on a 64-bit buss, which means twice the info at once right there.

 

If you read the previous post, which I don't believe that you did, this was already addressed. 32X has two 32-bit busses. (sp?)

 

The buss rate of the 32X ws said to be 42MB per second, the Jaugar's is 106MB per second.

 

Again, as I pointed out to Gorf W. Bush, the 106.4 MIPS of the "TOM" chip is dishonest misdirection. Jag games used the 68000, which has about half the Buss speed of the 32X.

 

As a reminder, we're not talking about games that could be done in theory, we're talking about games that have been done.

 

No games on the Jaguar are using more than a 20-30 MIPS buss rate, so therefore the 32X's 42 MIPS buss is adequate to play any Jaguar game. Do you understand?

 

I con't care about who's saying what, and regardless of what games show, the Jaguar beats the 32X in speed and power as-is without even taking into consideration it's dev. tools. This whole argument that the 32X can possibly be more powerful or faster is just obsurd.

 

Of course it is. There is no doubt that the Jaguar could be more powerful. It's a real shame that none of its games were more powerful and that its potential power was never taken full advantage of.

 

And I've seen the best and worst on both systems and the Jaguar's best is better than the 32X's best in the current game libraries. Regardless IF either could "handle" the games of the other's or not.

 

You see, that's Gorf's whole claim, though, that the 32X couldn't. Clearly, it could.

 

The 32X is an impressive system add-on, but there is NO way anyone will ever convince me or anyone with half a brain that it's better than the Jaguar in system power and speed.

 

No one has made such a claim, only that nothing developed for the Jag is beyond the 32X's abilities.

 

No one has to look any further than the factual system specs of these two systems to KNOW the truth. PERIOD.

 

Specs are misleading, as the Jaguar never really used the TOM chip. If you just leave in the 68000 chip, which Jag games heavily relied on, the the 32X outclasses the Jaguar in specs as well. As a result of how the Jag was actually used, the specs are incredibly inflated.

 

I would also remind you that specs alone are never a real basis of comparison. For example, the Genesis' processor is three times faster then that of the SNES, however, developers were able to create much better visuals for the console. Another example is Playstation 3. While it is technically superior to the Xbox 360, the tech specs don't manifest themselves in reality, as a large number of 360 games actually preform much better than their PS3 counterparts.

 

Rev. bob can reply with his ridiculous claims to this post all he want's but I'm not even going to read or reply to this thread anymore, becuase I won't dignify this crap anymore.

 

Well, thanks for your concession. It's too bad that you didn't have an open mind and the ability to learn and share information and ideas.

[Rev. Rob]

Uh, I'm talking about the 32x version versus the Jaguar version. Where did the PC version come in? Are you even paying attention to anything? Reading in fundamental, bubba.

 

They know that compairing the complete Jaguar version of DOOM to the incomplete 32X version of DOOM is willful deception.

 

In the legal world, we have a saying for people like this:

 

"If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."

 

Gorf and his chronies are pounding on anything in sight because facts and logic are their enemies, hence their dishonest references to DOOM 32X.

[JagChris]

I can stop at DOOM. the Jagaur version of doom is in every way superior to the 32x.

color speed full screen display even John Carmack of id software said the Jaguar is

HIS favorite version.

 

Now, now. It's no fair bringing up DOOM for the 32x and comparing it to the superior Jaguar version. The 32x version was a rush job, plain and simple. You KNOW that the 32x is more than capable of doing a very nice port of DOOM. There simply wasn't enough time to make it happen before the launch date. Sega needed DOOM for launch so it rushed out an inferior product.

 

It's like comparing the gameplay of FFL to that of VF. I believe FFL could have been far prettier than VF and possibly even played as well but the game was rushed and the programmers weren't paid so we ended up with a shite game.

 

Got news for you, Doom on the Jaguar was a mere "rush-job" port from the PC too, with NO optimization for the Jaguar at all, John Carmack said it himself. So they are PERFECT examples to compare, both rush jobs that BOTH could have been done better, so we can ignore that and compare them both as rush jobs on their respective hardware.

 

Got news for YOU. It's WAY more complex than that. Two different platforms, two different versions, two different programming teams, two different time frames. Duh!

 

Uh, same programming team as the PC for the Jag version. The boys at id did it themselves for the Jag version. Romero and Carmack included. Sorry to rain on your parade their bubba.

 

Uh, I'm talking about the 32x version versus the Jaguar version. Where did the PC version come in? Are you even paying attention to anything? Reading in fundamental, bubba.

 

Carmack and the boys did the 32x version as well I'm pretty sure in parallel with the Jag version.

 

 

Edit: Actually I'm not sure about this. I thought they also did the 32x version but I could be wrong.

Edited July 15, 2007 by JagChris

[fishsandwich]

Carmack and the boys did the 32x version as well I'm pretty sure in parallel with the Jag version.

 

 

Edit: Actually I'm not sure about this. I thought they also did the 32x version but I could be wrong.

 

Yes, you are wrong. Again.

[Punisher5.0]

Of course it is. There is no doubt that the Jaguar could be more powerful. It's a real shame that none of its games were more powerful and that its potential power was never taken full advantage of.

 

Specs are misleading, as the Jaguar never really used the TOM chip. If you just leave in the 68000 chip, which Jag games heavily relied on, the the 32X outclasses the Jaguar in specs as well. As a result of how the Jag was actually used, the specs are incredibly inflated.

 

That's the whole point of this thread though. What hardware has more power the Jaguar or 32X. It is very clear that the Jaguar is more powerful regardless of how most programmers coded for it. The 32X doesn't outclass the Jaguar in any specs at all. Every game that came out for the Jag used both Tom and Jerry or else you would be looking at a blank screen with no sound.Tech specs for both systems have been posted in this thread. The Jaguar clearly has faster procs and more RAM. There is nothing to argue. Your just trolling.