Why can't the 7800 handle a StreetFighter 2 style game?

[Trip_Cannon]

Anyway, Street Fighter made it on to almost all 8-bit machines. One thing needs to be mentioned... they all pretty much suck... gameplay is awful...

 

How much of that is due to their trying to run 16 bit sprites on 8 bit hardware? The GBC ran a very playable Street Fighter Alpha.

 

You mean like the brilliant C64 version?

 

I'm no tech guru when it comes to stuff like this, but the Gameboy Color was far more powerful than it's counterpart. And I'm going to go as far to say that it was far more powerful than a 7800. I mean, it even got a full conversion of Dragon's Lair. Can the 7800 do that?

Wait, so the computer Street Fighters suck, but you're using the terrible Dragon's Lair GBC as proof of how powerful it was? Right.

 

Right. I'm saying the computer Street Fighters suck. What do you think?

 

And hey, I've never played Dragon's Lair on GBC. Gamespot gives it a 7.5. IGN an 8.0, I assume it's pretty decent. Yes I'm using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. A Sprite says Street Fighter ALPHA was pretty good on the GBC. He's using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. Can the 7800 do ANYTHING like a fully animated Dragon's Lair? PLEASE tell me it can. PLEASE!

[Trip_Cannon]

I'm no tech guru when it comes to stuff like this, but the Gameboy Color was far more powerful than it's counterpart. And I'm going to go as far to say that it was far more powerful than a 7800. I mean, it even got a full conversion of Dragon's Lair. Can the 7800 do that?

 

It had more memory and colors. In terms of "power", both were still powered by 8-bit processors.

 

True. It was a beefed up Gameboy.

 

Wiki:

 

The processor, which is a Zilog Z80 workalike made by Sharp, has a clock speed twice as fast as that of the original Game Boy. The Game Boy Color also has four times as much memory as the original. The main difference between the Z80-like part found in Nintendo's machines and the actual Z80 is that Nintendo's machines do not have index registers.

[A Sprite]

I'm no tech guru when it comes to stuff like this, but the Gameboy Color was far more powerful than it's counterpart. And I'm going to go as far to say that it was far more powerful than a 7800. I mean, it even got a full conversion of Dragon's Lair. Can the 7800 do that?

 

I used Street Fighter Alpha because everyone seemed to be ignoring that King of Fighters 96 and Samurai Showdown 1&3 were all very playable on the original gameboy, with redrawn sprites.

 

All it takes is being realistic about the limitations of the system you're using.

[Trip_Cannon]

I agree, but there's a point where you lose the spirit of the game you're trying to make... I'm not saying it's impossible. But it does take a bit of creativity and a large understanding of what you're programming. There are a lot of bad conversions out there.

 

BUT! Take "the Simpsons Arcade game" for C64. Now that's a conversion!

[Atarifever]

And hey, I've never played Dragon's Lair on GBC. Gamespot gives it a 7.5. IGN an 8.0, I assume it's pretty decent. Yes I'm using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. A Sprite says Street Fighter ALPHA was pretty good on the GBC. He's using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. Can the 7800 do ANYTHING like a fully animated Dragon's Lair? PLEASE tell me it can. PLEASE!

You're making the same mistake everyone does when talking about the neglected Atari systems and attributing software familiarity with hardware ability. It doesn't matter what the 7800 IS capable of, because we will never ever see it in a million years, because no one had much reason to become familiar with it. As there was a lot of support and money to be made with the GB and Gameboy Color lines, you get to actually see the hardware pushed. With the 7800 you don't even see them putting better sound chips into most games, let alone spending time to figure out the tricks that will really make the system rock. If the 2600 had recieved hardly any support after the initial launch of games like Combat would you have then claimed Solaris was impossible on it? Sure you would.

 

So could Dragon's Lair have been done on the 7800? If they'd wanted it, it'd have been done.

[Atari060]

I see what you mean, but don´t underestimate the hobby programmers... in the 16/32-bit Atari community there are also a few releases of games never expected to be possible on these machines (wolf3d on a plain st, quake on falcon060, doom for 030 falcon)... The 7800 homebrew section is still having baby´s shoes on their feet, but it´s growing... And if enough people are interested in a sf2 version, I am sure someone will programm it in the future...

[Shawn]

So could Dragon's Lair have been done on the 7800? If they'd wanted it, it'd have been done.

 

 

Funny you mention that exact title, I will also confirm Dragon's Lair is more than doable on the 7800.

[Trip_Cannon]

And hey, I've never played Dragon's Lair on GBC. Gamespot gives it a 7.5. IGN an 8.0, I assume it's pretty decent. Yes I'm using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. A Sprite says Street Fighter ALPHA was pretty good on the GBC. He's using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. Can the 7800 do ANYTHING like a fully animated Dragon's Lair? PLEASE tell me it can. PLEASE!

You're making the same mistake everyone does when talking about the neglected Atari systems and attributing software familiarity with hardware ability. It doesn't matter what the 7800 IS capable of, because we will never ever see it in a million years, because no one had much reason to become familiar with it. As there was a lot of support and money to be made with the GB and Gameboy Color lines, you get to actually see the hardware pushed. With the 7800 you don't even see them putting better sound chips into most games, let alone spending time to figure out the tricks that will really make the system rock. If the 2600 had recieved hardly any support after the initial launch of games like Combat would you have then claimed Solaris was impossible on it? Sure you would.

 

So could Dragon's Lair have been done on the 7800? If they'd wanted it, it'd have been done.

 

And you're making the opposite mistake. Hell, why not port Quake III to the 7800? It can be done but in a different way. Dragon's Lair made it to the C64 and Adam but it wasn't the arcade game. If the fully animated Dragon's Lair could have been ported to the much more popular and much more supported NES, then why didn't they do it? Same with the SNES version. Same even with the C64!

 

I'm not disagreeing. I'll go ahead and say it could have been done on the 7800. Would it live up to the arcade? No. Does Street Fighter live up to the arcade on the C64? No. Do I want to play it? No. It looks and plays like ass! The C64 wasn't "built" to handle a game like SF2 or Dragon's Lair arcade and neither was the 7800.

 

I have NO DOUBT in my mind SF2 or Dragon's Lair could be made on the 7800. I only have my doubts when it comes to the playability.

[Trip_Cannon]

I see what you mean, but don´t underestimate the hobby programmers... in the 16/32-bit Atari community there are also a few releases of games never expected to be possible on these machines (wolf3d on a plain st, quake on falcon060, doom for 030 falcon)... The 7800 homebrew section is still having baby´s shoes on their feet, but it´s growing... And if enough people are interested in a sf2 version, I am sure someone will programm it in the future...

 

Trust me. I don't. I would love to see something great for the 7800 here in the future.

[Trip_Cannon]

So could Dragon's Lair have been done on the 7800? If they'd wanted it, it'd have been done.

 

 

Funny you mention that exact title, I will also confirm Dragon's Lair is more than doable on the 7800.

 

I will be the first person in line to pay double what you're asking for a 7800 Dragon's Lair arcade.

 

Laserdisc adapter version doesn't apply..

[jbanes]

The C64 wasn't "built" to handle a game like SF2 or Dragon's Lair arcade and neither was the 7800.

Yes it was.

 

The Expansion Bay was originally incorporated into the design of the Atari 7800 during development at Warner in 1983. This port was originally intended to support an extremely advanced LaserDisc™ peripheral for playing games like Dragon's Lair.

Had things worked as originally planned, the 7800 would have been playing the original Dragon's Lair. Not a side-scroller rip-off.

[Trip_Cannon]

Beat you to it with my last post.

 

I know, but, unfortunately, we don't have that. Now I ask you.... can it be done with just the cart?!

[jbanes]

Beat you to it with my last post.

 

I know, but, unfortunately, we don't have that. Now I ask you.... can it be done with just the cart?!

Ok, now that's just cheating. You said it wasn't designed to handle Dragon's Lair, except that it was!

 

Sprite-wise, the 7800 was an extremely capable system. It had a lot of suckage in its design, but it could have done many of the games you've mentioned. It's simply a fact that Atari didn't get licenses to do many games on their 7800 unit. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Atari didn't want the licenses. Tramiel was all about doing things on the cheap. The problem is that he never quite got the idea that console third-parties were a lot different from the home-grown third parties of the computer world. In the computer world, anyone could write a game on a floppy and become an overnight success. Consoles, on the other hand, required a lot of love and attention from the console maker before third parties would be convinced to invest in the system.

[Trip_Cannon]

Beat you to it with my last post.

 

I know, but, unfortunately, we don't have that. Now I ask you.... can it be done with just the cart?!

Ok, now that's just cheating. You said it wasn't designed to handle Dragon's Lair, except that it was!

 

Sprite-wise, the 7800 was an extremely capable system. It had a lot of suckage in its design, but it could have done many of the games you've mentioned. It's simply a fact that Atari didn't get licenses to do many games on their 7800 unit. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Atari didn't want the licenses. Tramiel was all about doing things on the cheap. The problem is that he never quite got the idea that console third-parties were a lot different from the home-grown third parties of the computer world. In the computer world, anyone could write a game on a floppy and become an overnight success. Consoles, on the other hand, required a lot of love and attention from the console maker before third parties would be convinced to invest in the system.

 

Hehehe, I would have loved to see a fully uncut "American Hero" for the 7800. That would have been great!

 

I agree with you. The 7800 needed so much more support to see what it was really capable of. In actuality it's capable of anything. The only question I'd have is "how good would it be?"

 

There's a great section that I should have paid more attention to in the Classic Gaming forum: "Worst ports ever." First post, ironically enough, mentions Street Fighter for Gameboy.

 

Another one from that section that I noticed and HAVE played is Hard Drivin for C64. What were they thinking? Ok, it was made, the C64 was "capable" of it... but it's completely unplayable. Again, the C64 wasn't "built" for a game like Hard Drivin... Where as, and I stand corrected, the 7800 was "built" for Dragon's Lair....

[supercat]

Had things worked as originally planned, the 7800 would have been playing the original Dragon's Lair. Not a side-scroller rip-off.

 

Perhaps, though I don't know how the expansion port was supposed to allow any sort of video overlay or control. I'm unaware of any way to sync Maria to an external source, and there aren't really any useful control signals on that port.

[supercat]

I know, but, unfortunately, we don't have that. Now I ask you.... can it be done with just the cart?!

 

I would expect so. Probably without too much difficulty, though I don't know that the effort to built a custom cart would be worthwhile.

 

Basically, what would be required would be a cart with a SmartMedia chip installed to respond to certain address ranges. On each scan line, the MARIA would clock out 82 bytes and the CPU would clock out three (sound), except every third line the CPU would clock out (and ignore) an extra byte. Thus, three scan lines would represent exactly 256 bytes on the flash. The SmartMedia requires a little extra delay every 512 bytes, but there should be enough time between reading the 512th byte of one bank and the first byte of the next.

 

Each frame would be shown 2-3 times (assuming 24fps video). The first time, the CPU would use the first sound byte of each line. The second time, it would use the second byte of each line, etc.

 

Full-motion 16-color 160x200 video should not be a problem. At 24fps, that would be about 384K per second. On modern chips, a full game like Dragon's Lair should fit pretty easily.

[Atarifever]

And hey, I've never played Dragon's Lair on GBC. Gamespot gives it a 7.5. IGN an 8.0, I assume it's pretty decent. Yes I'm using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. A Sprite says Street Fighter ALPHA was pretty good on the GBC. He's using it to prove how powerful the GBC was. Can the 7800 do ANYTHING like a fully animated Dragon's Lair? PLEASE tell me it can. PLEASE!

You're making the same mistake everyone does when talking about the neglected Atari systems and attributing software familiarity with hardware ability. It doesn't matter what the 7800 IS capable of, because we will never ever see it in a million years, because no one had much reason to become familiar with it. As there was a lot of support and money to be made with the GB and Gameboy Color lines, you get to actually see the hardware pushed. With the 7800 you don't even see them putting better sound chips into most games, let alone spending time to figure out the tricks that will really make the system rock. If the 2600 had recieved hardly any support after the initial launch of games like Combat would you have then claimed Solaris was impossible on it? Sure you would.

 

So could Dragon's Lair have been done on the 7800? If they'd wanted it, it'd have been done.

 

And you're making the opposite mistake. Hell, why not port Quake III to the 7800? It can be done but in a different way. Dragon's Lair made it to the C64 and Adam but it wasn't the arcade game. If the fully animated Dragon's Lair could have been ported to the much more popular and much more supported NES, then why didn't they do it? Same with the SNES version. Same even with the C64!

 

I'm not disagreeing. I'll go ahead and say it could have been done on the 7800. Would it live up to the arcade? No. Does Street Fighter live up to the arcade on the C64? No. Do I want to play it? No. It looks and plays like ass! The C64 wasn't "built" to handle a game like SF2 or Dragon's Lair arcade and neither was the 7800.

 

I have NO DOUBT in my mind SF2 or Dragon's Lair could be made on the 7800. I only have my doubts when it comes to the playability.

See, now you're being silly. I didn't say it could handle Quake, did I? I said it could handle something the GBC could handle. That was your original question, not if it could handle Quake, but if it could handle a GBC quality port. I said a main difference between those two systems was the amount of effort and experience put into programming. I also said that if the 7800 had that much effort put into it (like say the amount put into the GB or 2600) it would seem much less limited than you were giving it credit for. You're taking what I said and claiming I said that anything could be accomplished on anything. What I actually said is that in this particular comparision there's more a difference in software than in hardware.

 

Also, your "playability" thing isn't what I responded to or what you were talking about when you referenced the GBC DL. You asked if the GBC level Dragon's Lair could have been pulled off on the 7800, not if it would be playable, as the GBC version, IMO, is certainly not.

[DracIsBack]

I said a main difference between those two systems was the amount of effort and experience put into programming. I also said that if the 7800 had that much effort put into it (like say the amount put into the GB or 2600) it would seem much less limited than you were giving it credit for. You're taking what I said and claiming I said that anything could be accomplished on anything. What I actually said is that in this particular comparision there's more a difference in software than in hardware.

 

Here's a point that people often overlook and I've always felt it about many systems.

 

Successful systems are systems people invest in.

 

Unsuccessful systems die off without much investment.

 

The winners get pushed (Solaris, Gunstar Heroes, Donkey Kong Country etc)

 

The losers die off without being fully pushed.

 

Take Donkey Kong Country. It caused be waves when it came out because it looked so much better than other 16-bit systems at the time. The developers also had to invest heavily in the equipment to create the graphics.

 

Hence, no DKC type games on the Turbografx.

[Atarifever]

I said a main difference between those two systems was the amount of effort and experience put into programming. I also said that if the 7800 had that much effort put into it (like say the amount put into the GB or 2600) it would seem much less limited than you were giving it credit for. You're taking what I said and claiming I said that anything could be accomplished on anything. What I actually said is that in this particular comparision there's more a difference in software than in hardware.

 

Here's a point that people often overlook and I've always felt it about many systems.

 

Successful systems are systems people invest in.

 

Unsuccessful systems die off without much investment.

 

The winners get pushed (Solaris, Gunstar Heroes, Donkey Kong Country etc)

 

The losers die off without being fully pushed.

 

Take Donkey Kong Country. It caused be waves when it came out because it looked so much better than other 16-bit systems at the time. The developers also had to invest heavily in the equipment to create the graphics.

 

Hence, no DKC type games on the Turbografx.

 

That's exactly my point. People tend to always make this same mistake regarding the Jaguar and 7800 in particular. Neither system got enough support to actually show for sure what it was capable of. We get little glimpses of what was possible (Tower Topler shooter scene, Ball Blazer, Alien Vs. Predator, Protector SE), so we know the systems were hardly ever pushed, but that isn't enough to stop the naysayers from claiming the systems failed because they were technologically limited (as if the popular systems each generation were technological power houses)

[A Sprite]

Hence, no DKC type games on the Turbografx.

 

Your point is a good one, but if I can be off-topic for a sec, google "Sapphire" - it's considered to be the DKC of the PC Engine.

[Trip_Cannon]

Ooo! Ooo! I found a badass article!!

 

Link!

[Trip_Cannon]

Again, I'm not claiming that a Street Fighter game can not be done. I'm just saying, look at the current set of 8-bit SF2's out there and ask yourself if you really want one... As mentioned earlier, Yie Are Kung Fu would be a MUCH BETTER choice than SF2.

[EricBall]

The Expansion Bay was originally incorporated into the design of the Atari 7800 during development at Warner in 1983. This port was originally intended to support an extremely advanced LaserDisc™ peripheral for playing games like Dragon's Lair.

Had things worked as originally planned, the 7800 would have been playing the original Dragon's Lair. Not a side-scroller rip-off.

Ahh, the legendary expansion port and the LaserDisc interface. Yes, the idea of connecting the 7800 to a LD player may have existed during the original design, I'm not sure how far it made it past the concept stage or whether it is, in fact, possible.

 

The expansion port is almost entirely outputs, not inputs. So there would need to be an external video mixer which would combine the video from the LD and the 7800 (and sync the two somehow, not a trivial operation since the capability isn't built into the 7800 or the LD; maybe the EXTMEN signal was meant for this). There would also need to be some sort of interface from the 7800 to the LD to select specific frames (CAV tracks) via the joystick port.

 

But the big problem is the 7800's video is not standard NTSC (See: LaserDisc Memo) It's half a colorburst too wide and non-interlaced. Now, it might be possible to record an LD with matching frame characteristics, but you might end up with something requiring a custom LD player. (Or maybe the EXTOSC & OSCDIS signals were meant to address this.)

[gdement]

I'm not sure what the point would be of porting Street Fighter 2 to any more consoles, but the thread title is actually just asking about that style of game, not SF2 itself.

For a 1-on-1 fighter, I think the best cartridge layout might be a 16KB ROM window (no fixed bank) and 32KB RAM. That gives you a significant amount of memory to hold graphics for the 2 selected characters. You might also be able to break up the sprites into components which can be reused for multiple frames (like the head, for example). The ROM data can be more compressed since you aren't rendering directly from there.

 

Unfortunately you can't have RAM and a sound chip in the same cartridge, unless that gets supported on a custom PCB. Even then you'd have to find address space for the sound chip so that might drop you down to 24KB RAM or so.

 

Getting the signature to pass without a fixed bank would be annoying, but not impossible.

[Atarifever]

Ooo! Ooo! I found a badass article!!

 

Link!

That is a great article. Only one problem with it: they included the Dreamcast. HA! The Dreamcast can't have it's limits pushed. The Dreamcast has no limits.

 

One thing I really liked:

Of course, by today’s standards, [Aliens Vs. Predator] looks pretty dated, but there was just something about how futuristic the game looked while most of were still playing on our SNES and Genesis. While it was the only game for the Jaguar that even tempted me to purchase Atari’s doomed console, I’m still intrigued about the game to this day.

 

When it was originally released, I was blown away by the graphics. Wolfenstien 3D was the only game that I had seen in this new genre and I felt that this was the holy grail of video gaming graphics. The textures accurately re-created the feel of the movies. The aliens could use a few more frames of animation for added realism, but this is a forgivable problem. AvP also had some really great sound effects to round out the package.

 

 

DOOM

As you can quickly see, the Jaguar was bascially the first console for good First Person Shooters. The graphics in Doom were nothing short of phenomenal in its day. The walls, ceiling, and floor are all texture-mapped. There was a great attention to detail on the Jaguar port, as it was actually programmed by John Carmac.

Edited June 14, 2007 by Atarifever