Atari 400 top ten worst keyboards?

[supercat]

What I mean is that the C64 shouldn't be on a "10 worst keyboard" list at any spot.

 

In what way is the Commodore VIC-20/C64 keyboard worse than that of an unmodified Apple ][? I can't think of any.

 

Requiring shift to use cursor keys is a little goofy, but the primary backspace key (INS/DEL) is in the upper right hand corner, where emerging standards would decide it belongs. PETASCII was goofy, but it did support lower case. The Apple ][ had no built-in lowercase support at all, and it used shift-N for caret and shift-P for at-sign. If I recall, the backspace key was on the second row of the keyboard, second from the right. At the upper right corner was the RESET button. Hitting that was bad (not quite so bad on the ][+, at least). Keyboard repeat was accomplished via a "RPT" key. There were no vertical motion keys at all; the built-in interpreter used escape +IJKM, and many other programs did similar things.

 

True, the VIC-20/C64 weren't perfect, but they weren't horrible either.

[Crimefighter]

They didn't include the Atari 2600 Keyboard? Bah, list is crap.

 

Basic programming on the 2600.

[Scream And Fly]

I'll just go on record as saying that I love the Atari 400 keyboard, and I use my 64K modded 400 almost everyday.

[JokerCPoC]

They didn't include the Atari 2600 Keyboard? Bah, list is crap.

 

Basic programming on the 2600.

Did You mean this one?

It didn't ever work as It didn't have any electronics inside as It was only a mock up, or a model. At least according to the museum.

http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/cons.../2600/keyboard/

[Nukey Shay]

No...the keyboard controllers for use with the Basic Programming cartridge, I'd guess.

[WizWor]

There was nothing wrong with the 400 keyboard. It was a very decent input device for a video game console. You could spill beer on it without causing problems. Pretty perfect if you ask me. I never used my 400 for word processing or programming -- I don't think it was intended to be used that way.

 

FWIW we use similar keyboards on modern PCs deployed in a shop environment because they work and are durable.

[Atari Smeghead]

Hey Doc, interesting keyboard upgrade. I've never seen one that goes beyond the edge of the computer. Is that a kit or your own invention?

 

My dad's invention. He took a 1200/1400 keyboard (that was sold as a keyboard kit at Radio Shack) and attached it to my 400. Had to do some special wiring, and had to rewrite the keyboard map chip. It was an involved process, but when computers are expensive, you work with what you can get.

 

Knowing how much those machines cost back in the day, your father was obviously very confident with his skills. It's very impressive, to be sure!

 

Eventually, I upgraded to a keyboard similar to JokerCPoC's, but long after my fingers had become flat-tipped.

 

Yup, a lot of us began our computing/Atari lives on the membraned 400. I like the look of the keyboard so much that I bought a keyboard-only off eBay years ago and mounted it on the wall.

 

 

Cheers,

Smeg

[JokerCPoC]

There was nothing wrong with the 400 keyboard. It was a very decent input device for a video game console. You could spill beer on it without causing problems. Pretty perfect if you ask me. I never used my 400 for word processing or programming -- I don't think it was intended to be used that way.

 

FWIW we use similar keyboards on modern PCs deployed in a shop environment because they work and are durable.

I just replaced Mine as It felt like It had no give and was too stiff.

[Prodos8]

For gaming use all those keyboards are more than adequate. But, for real typing the membrane & chicklet (especially) keyboards are nearly useless. BTW the C=64 and the PET-2001 had no business being on that list.

[JokerCPoC]

For gaming use all those keyboards are more than adequate. But, for real typing the membrane & chicklet (especially) keyboards are nearly useless. BTW the C=64 and the PET-2001 had no business being on that list.

Couldn't agree more, Typing basic code in from Compute Magazine was a lot easier once the stock keyboard was chucked and replaced.

[Scream And Fly]

Long live the Atari 400!

 

[+Philsan]

I like the look of the keyboard so much that I bought a keyboard-only off eBay years ago and mounted it on the wall.

Nice idea!

[Urchlay]

Long live the Atari 400!

 

That looks minty fresh... is it part of your collection?

 

As much as I hated typing on the 400 keyboard, I wish I still had a 400 in good condition... if nothing else, it'd be good to use as a console in the living room.

 

Does anyone know whether any of the various 400 keyboard upgrades are still available?

[charliecron]

Long live the Atari 400!

 

That looks minty fresh... is it part of your collection?

 

As much as I hated typing on the 400 keyboard, I wish I still had a 400 in good condition... if nothing else, it'd be good to use as a console in the living room.

 

Does anyone know whether any of the various 400 keyboard upgrades are still available?

Well B&C has em listed for sale..I havent asked them if they actually are available.. not a bad price either.

 

"PRA002H B Key Keyboard 400 by In Home 25.00

Used! Only have a few. Full Stroke keys"

[Pengwin]

Why wasn't the Oric-1 on that list. That had a horrible keyboard.

I'm glad the ZX Spectrum wasn't there though. Once you got used to it, it was ok.

The Spectrum Plus on the other hand is a nightmare.

[Retro Rogue]

I've held an ATari 400... pushed it's buttons even... but never want one.

 

 

Tease.

[Retro Rogue]

Is it just me, or doesn't the Pet's keyboard remind you of the travel version of Scrabble?

 

 

Edited January 13, 2008 by wgungfu

[kenfused]

I still think the Atari 400's keyboard was good a for a flat membrane keyboard.

 

Mattel Aquarius's keyboard was really bad. A space button, rubbery keys that had to be hit in the middle (especially the large keys like shift or space). Many times they would give no response or repeated characters when you hit it once.

 

--Ken

[JokerCPoC]

Is it just me, or doesn't the Pet's keyboard remind you of travel version of Scrabble?

 

 

 

Good catch, Didn't see that one.

[Scream And Fly]

Long live the Atari 400!

 

That looks minty fresh... is it part of your collection?

 

 

Yeah - that one is a new-in-box 400 - never used!

[carmel_andrews]

The speccy plus's keyboard was better then the speccy 48k rubber jobbie

 

(A bit like comparing an xe keyboard with an xl)

[Student Driver]

I would imagine the reason that Spectrum and Oric keyboards weren't listed is because the magazine's an American one, and they're focusing on American releases. Sir Sinclair's there in spirit, though, with the Timex/Sinclair.

 

I thought it was a little disingenuous of the article writer to count "notoriety" or however he phrased it as a primary variable; there were a ton of crappy membrane and chiclet keyboards in the US marketplace that would knock most of his list out of position, but I suppose no one cares about things like the Panasonic JR-600, that Vtech Apple clone, or the TRS-80 MC-10.

 

That said, I can understand one of his complaints of the C64 keyboard; the feel of the keys was fine, and the "problems" with the PETSCII graphics on the front simply weren't problems, but the height of the keyboard on the original breadbox was pretty damn unergonomic. There was a thriving market for alternate keyboards in the days I was a Commie-- 64c-type replacement cases, mods to use detachable keyboards, etc. The keyboard was wrist-cramping for extended typing. I was spoiled with my 128, and found using friends' older C64s annoying.

 

Of modern keyboards, there's still plenty of crap out there. When I was test-driving laptops a while back, I was severely disappointed in the majority of the keyboards I tried, like mushy chiclets with keycaps glued on. Sony's VAIO laptops had keyboards that felt like I was typing with a giant touchtone telephone. I also had the misfortune of being saddled with a newish Mac keyboard of some sort, flat brushed chrome keys on a thin rubbery substrate. Horrible for touchtyping, but all that matters any more is looking pretty, I suppose.

 

I'd happily take any of these bad keyboards-- old or modern-- over typing on a cellphone.

[Urchlay]

Of modern keyboards, there's still plenty of crap out there. When I was test-driving laptops a while back, I was severely disappointed in the majority of the keyboards I tried, like mushy chiclets with keycaps glued on. Sony's VAIO laptops had keyboards that felt like I was typing with a giant touchtone telephone. I also had the misfortune of being saddled with a newish Mac keyboard of some sort, flat brushed chrome keys on a thin rubbery substrate. Horrible for touchtyping, but all that matters any more is looking pretty, I suppose.

 

Ugh, I was typing on one of those new Mac laptop keyboards last night. Maybe they're an improvement on the original iBook keyboards: at least the keys stayed firmly attached. Everyone I knew who owned an original iBook had at least one key that just popped off the keyboard for no apparent reason... but then the only Mac-specific keyboard I've ever used that I didn't hate, was an old third-party ADB one. Apple really thinks nobody ever should type on their computers, I guess... and don't get me started on their mice. The absolute best typing experience you can get on a Mac is to use a PC keyboard (I recommend the IBM Model M!), possibly through a PS/2 => USB adaptor, and install some software to let you remap the keys so you don't lose the Apple/Option/whatever-it's-called key. While you're at it, get a decent PC mouse (Logitech, 3 button w/scroll wheel). Inconvenient for laptops, of course...

 

I've owned two Sony Vaios, too... one from about 1997 or '98, and another I bought new in 2002. They both have rotten keyboards, but the older one definitely had a more firm feel to it, was a little nicer (though its keycaps were losing their lettering). The new one has basically no tactile feedback at all.

 

Pretty much all laptop keyboards suck in one major way: there's always a "Fn" key in the lower left, where your fingers expect the Control key to be. Usually it's difficult or impossible to remap this key in software, and even if you do manage to swap the meanings of Fn and Ctrl, the keycaps are usually of different sizes so you can't really swap them physically.

 

One thing I don't understand: most of the larger laptops (17" display) have plenty of dead space to the left & right of the keyboard. Why couldn't someone make such a laptop with a regular keyboard layout, maybe even squeeze the num pad in there, get rid of the need for the Fn key...?

[Hackmann]

Of modern keyboards, there's still plenty of crap out there. When I was test-driving laptops a while back, I was severely disappointed in the majority of the keyboards I tried, like mushy chiclets with keycaps glued on. Sony's VAIO laptops had keyboards that felt like I was typing with a giant touchtone telephone. I also had the misfortune of being saddled with a newish Mac keyboard of some sort, flat brushed chrome keys on a thin rubbery substrate. Horrible for touchtyping, but all that matters any more is looking pretty, I suppose.

 

Ugh, I was typing on one of those new Mac laptop keyboards last night. Maybe they're an improvement on the original iBook keyboards: at least the keys stayed firmly attached. Everyone I knew who owned an original iBook had at least one key that just popped off the keyboard for no apparent reason... but then the only Mac-specific keyboard I've ever used that I didn't hate, was an old third-party ADB one. Apple really thinks nobody ever should type on their computers, I guess... and don't get me started on their mice. The absolute best typing experience you can get on a Mac is to use a PC keyboard (I recommend the IBM Model M!), possibly through a PS/2 => USB adaptor, and install some software to let you remap the keys so you don't lose the Apple/Option/whatever-it's-called key. While you're at it, get a decent PC mouse (Logitech, 3 button w/scroll wheel). Inconvenient for laptops, of course...

Oddly enough, the keyboards on the PowerBooks and MacBook Pros are really nice. I'm not going to even try to defend 99% of the input devices that Apple makes (the Mighty Mouse makes me want to throw it against a wall every time I use it), but they really got the keyboard on their pro laptops right. It's the the only laptop keyboard that I've ever been able to code with.

[Albert]

Ugh, I was typing on one of those new Mac laptop keyboards last night. Maybe they're an improvement on the original iBook keyboards: at least the keys stayed firmly attached. Everyone I knew who owned an original iBook had at least one key that just popped off the keyboard for no apparent reason... but then the only Mac-specific keyboard I've ever used that I didn't hate, was an old third-party ADB one. Apple really thinks nobody ever should type on their computers, I guess... and don't get me started on their mice. The absolute best typing experience you can get on a Mac is to use a PC keyboard (I recommend the IBM Model M!), possibly through a PS/2 => USB adaptor, and install some software to let you remap the keys so you don't lose the Apple/Option/whatever-it's-called key. While you're at it, get a decent PC mouse (Logitech, 3 button w/scroll wheel). Inconvenient for laptops, of course..

I have a Macbook with those "flat" style keys and the keyboard is fine. There is plenty of travel with the keys, the keys are still the same distance apart from one another, and mostly it just looks strange. It's definitely an improvement over the iBook keyboards--not because of keys flying off (I owned two and never had that happen), but because it feels and operates much better. Now, having said that, I prefer the Macbook Pro keyboard over the Macbook keyboard, as it feels better still.

 

I agree with you about the old ADB keyboards. My favorite is the Apple Extended Keyboard. I still have one somewhere--I should see about getting an adapter so I can plug it into my primary Mac. And yes, the old Model M keyboards are also fantastic--I love the feel and "click" of those keyboards. I also agree about Apple's mice. Don't like them, even the newer Mighty Mouse, and the first thing I do when I get a new Mac is to replace the keyboard and mouse with third-party replacements (usually Microsoft or Logitech).

 

..Al