Re Doom Source Code

[JagChris]

Well the idea was to get id's view on the whole is it legal or not legal stand, to state that the future project would be free was more to show them that as a community we weren't trying to make money of their work, thats what I was trying to get across.

 

And who's going to do the work well thats up to anyone who wants to I suppose, I for one would love to make levels for any new game, I used to make levels for PC Doom and Quake, I could never get my head round programming, hardware was always my thing, but when I got a PC and my first copy of Doom I really got into level design, graphics etc, and I am trying to track down a guy of DoomWorld who once told me he had hacked Jag Doom an wrote/hacked a level editor for it.

 

 

Rob

 

I'm serious Harvey, you should consider seeing if Matthias would like your help in creating new levels and WADS for DOOM, or modifying/expanding whatever it is Matthias is currently using for Wads.

[Gorf]

I agree since we are talking about you, who knows how to get the most from the Jaguar now, with true 3D, but not everyone in the community is as skilled or dedicated as you at creating great, true 3D games from the ground up, and I'm sure that there are those who would be more successful at using an existing ray-trace engine to make a new game. I too, prefer true 3D, but I still like ray-trace games too. I still like old 2D games of all types, and if people still want 2D games too, and developers want to develop them, then there seem to also be (judging by the fact that everyone here is even discussing it) Jag developers that also want to do more ray-traced games, and users like me, and others who have replied, that still enjoy them as well. I say go for it with your true 3D games, but I don't see why you want to discourage others from doing ray-traced games.

 

I do understand and certainly do not want to sound like there should

NEVER be another game based one the DOOM engine. All I am saying

is why make it more of the same? The DOOM Engine could be used

for a number of classic updates for instance. How about a nice game

of Berzerk? DOOM is a very flexible engine and can certainly be improved

upon. An elaborate Maze and ghost game for instance. How about a

DOOM based Robotron? With upper and lower levels? And mikeys

everywhere?

 

My hope is not to discourage anything but hopefully encourage a

different direction.

 

These sources should be used to learn things from...especially how NOT to code

the Jaguar as most of the code is performance killing 68k.

 

Breakout 2000 for instance....

 

That is mostly 68k 'C' code! The Jag aint doing much at all. Imagine if Mario had

better tools that could manipulate the GPU, forget main code.....even with local

code flipping you would have seen some truly impressive stuff.

 

It's not easy dealing with cache flip based code. Lots to track. Im sure Mario could

have done it and I certainly do not blame him for NOT doing it. GPU code is a lot

of work. Not the actual code itself...the need to juggle everything around.

 

The DOOM engine should not be thrown away, Im just saying it needs to be revitalized

is all. The other trouble is we dont have the custom compiler that the 'id' boys used.

Matthias got is working with out it but I beleive he does not intend to release that code.

[Gunstar]

I agree since we are talking about you, who knows how to get the most from the Jaguar now, with true 3D, but not everyone in the community is as skilled or dedicated as you at creating great, true 3D games from the ground up, and I'm sure that there are those who would be more successful at using an existing ray-trace engine to make a new game. I too, prefer true 3D, but I still like ray-trace games too. I still like old 2D games of all types, and if people still want 2D games too, and developers want to develop them, then there seem to also be (judging by the fact that everyone here is even discussing it) Jag developers that also want to do more ray-traced games, and users like me, and others who have replied, that still enjoy them as well. I say go for it with your true 3D games, but I don't see why you want to discourage others from doing ray-traced games.

 

I do understand and certainly do not want to sound like there should

NEVER be another game based one the DOOM engine. All I am saying

is why make it more of the same? The DOOM Engine could be used

for a number of classic updates for instance. How about a nice game

of Berzerk? DOOM is a very flexible engine and can certainly be improved

upon. An elaborate Maze and ghost game for instance. How about a

DOOM based Robotron? With upper and lower levels? And mikeys

everywhere?

 

My hope is not to discourage anything but hopefully encourage a

different direction.

 

These sources should be used to learn things from...especially how NOT to code

the Jaguar as most of the code is performance killing 68k.

 

Breakout 2000 for instance....

 

That is mostly 68k 'C' code! The Jag aint doing much at all. Imagine if Mario had

better tools that could manipulate the GPU, forget main code.....even with local

code flipping you would have seen some truly impressive stuff.

 

It's not easy dealing with cache flip based code. Lots to track. Im sure Mario could

have done it and I certainly do not blame him for NOT doing it. GPU code is a lot

of work. Not the actual code itself...the need to juggle everything around.

 

The DOOM engine should not be thrown away, Im just saying it needs to be revitalized

is all. The other trouble is we dont have the custom compiler that the 'id' boys used.

Matthias got is working with out it but I beleive he does not intend to release that code.

 

I completely agree. I never meant to suggest that all I wanted from the Doom engine was more Doom. I would expect the Doom source to be revitalized! Actually, I'm imagining something like a full-fledged RPG, too. With the Doom source, and some of your tools, to transfer most of that code away from the 68K, and a lot more added. I remember a really cool RPG that used the Doom engine called 'Strife.' But though it used the PC Doom engine, it was far more than just a Doom clone. But of course you just mentioned that no one has the custom compiler the 'id' boys used, so then wouldn't that mean we are back to square one and all that can be done is more of the same; new characters, weaopns and levels, but no improvement over the original?

Yeah, I've seen Matthias code using the Doom source, and I thought it looked really promising. It's a shame that he never intends to release it. That's something I can't quite grasp, why developers take the time to work all this cool stuff that they never intend to release. I think you've mentioned and shown pics of stuff you've worked on that you said wouldn't be released. don't you think that's a waste of hard work? Sure, I know you learn from it, but still...

Edited February 16, 2008 by Gunstar

[Gorf]

I completely agree. I never meant to suggest that all I wanted from the Doom engine was more Doom. I would expect the Doom source

 

 

The old style of writing games wont be helped much at all by the tools suite

in the works. It will hopefully compile them as the goal is 100% MADMAC and

ALN compatibility but unless the code was written for main, this cant really

do much to allow the old sources to take advantage of it without re-writing

and at that point you should just start from scratch.

 

I acn see having some fun with the current sources with some hacks as

mentioned but Im really hoping to put the pedal to the medal and see if

I've been talking a lot of shit.

 

I cant say for sure but I dont think I am.

[EmOneGarand]

I agree since we are talking about you, who knows how to get the most from the Jaguar now, with true 3D, but not everyone in the community is as skilled or dedicated as you at creating great, true 3D games from the ground up, and I'm sure that there are those who would be more successful at using an existing ray-trace engine to make a new game. I too, prefer true 3D, but I still like ray-trace games too. I still like old 2D games of all types, and if people still want 2D games too, and developers want to develop them, then there seem to also be (judging by the fact that everyone here is even discussing it) Jag developers that also want to do more ray-traced games, and users like me, and others who have replied, that still enjoy them as well. I say go for it with your true 3D games, but I don't see why you want to discourage others from doing ray-traced games.

 

I do understand and certainly do not want to sound like there should

NEVER be another game based one the DOOM engine. All I am saying

is why make it more of the same? The DOOM Engine could be used

for a number of classic updates for instance. How about a nice game

of Berzerk? DOOM is a very flexible engine and can certainly be improved

upon. An elaborate Maze and ghost game for instance. How about a

DOOM based Robotron? With upper and lower levels? And mikeys

everywhere?

 

My hope is not to discourage anything but hopefully encourage a

different direction.

 

These sources should be used to learn things from...especially how NOT to code

the Jaguar as most of the code is performance killing 68k.

 

Breakout 2000 for instance....

 

That is mostly 68k 'C' code! The Jag aint doing much at all. Imagine if Mario had

better tools that could manipulate the GPU, forget main code.....even with local

code flipping you would have seen some truly impressive stuff.

 

It's not easy dealing with cache flip based code. Lots to track. Im sure Mario could

have done it and I certainly do not blame him for NOT doing it. GPU code is a lot

of work. Not the actual code itself...the need to juggle everything around.

 

The DOOM engine should not be thrown away, Im just saying it needs to be revitalized

is all. The other trouble is we dont have the custom compiler that the 'id' boys used.

Matthias got is working with out it but I beleive he does not intend to release that code.

 

I completely agree. I never meant to suggest that all I wanted from the Doom engine was more Doom. I would expect the Doom source to be revitalized! Actually, I'm imagining something like a full-fledged RPG, too. With the Doom source, and some of your tools, to transfer most of that code away from the 68K, and a lot more added. I remember a really cool RPG that used the Doom engine called 'Strife.' But though it used the PC Doom engine, it was far more than just a Doom clone. But of course you just mentioned that no one has the custom compiler the 'id' boys used, so then wouldn't that mean we are back to square one and all that can be done is more of the same; new characters, weaopns and levels, but no improvement over the original?

Yeah, I've seen Matthias code using the Doom source, and I thought it looked really promising. It's a shame that he never intends to release it. That's something I can't quite grasp, why developers take the time to work all this cool stuff that they never intend to release. I think you've mentioned and shown pics of stuff you've worked on that you said wouldn't be released. don't you think that's a waste of hard work? Sure, I know you learn from it, but still...

Yeah you can't describe Strife as a DOOM clone because the underlying gameplay was entirely different.

[spiffyone]

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

Why limit it to FPS though?

 

I'm sure one could modify the DOOM engine to power stuff like RPGs, Adventure games, etc.

 

Hell...I'm actually thinking of something right now that's not an FPS at all, and fits nicely with the

whole "update a classic" discussion we were having in another topic, and could work with a modified

DOOM engine:

 

Tunnel Runner 2000

[downix]

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

Why limit it to FPS though?

 

I'm sure one could modify the DOOM engine to power stuff like RPGs, Adventure games, etc.

 

Hell...I'm actually thinking of something right now that's not an FPS at all, and fits nicely with the

whole "update a classic" discussion we were having in another topic, and could work with a modified

DOOM engine:

 

Tunnel Runner 2000

I was working on a Doom-based RPG at one time. But then got bored with it.

[Gorf]

First of all you are simply restricted from using the game images and name and audio,

you can however use the code for any purpose, even commercial but at this point in time

why would you want to? Have'nt you played ENOUGH ray traced FPS's for one life time

folks? I must be getting old!

 

Why limit it to FPS though?

 

I'm sure one could modify the DOOM engine to power stuff like RPGs, Adventure games, etc.

 

Hell...I'm actually thinking of something right now that's not an FPS at all, and fits nicely with the

whole "update a classic" discussion we were having in another topic, and could work with a modified

DOOM engine:

 

Tunnel Runner 2000

 

 

I've already pointed this out actually.....Imagine PacMan in 3D with stairs!

[Hyper_Eye]

There really never has been a question as far as the code goes. ID opened it to allow us to work with it and make derivatives from it. I seem to remember the biggest issue being the format of the wad file which ID never really release details about. I believe Carmack stated he didn't really recollect the specifics of the format. But, there has been some work done as evidenced by this video of the Jaguar running Doom with a legacy-free wad:

 

 

I do agree that plenty of people would be interested in working on a doom project without any capital gain. Look in my signature to see the main project I am currently involved in for which I am on the development team.