The Real Deal About the Atari 1400XL (EXCEL)

[carmel_andrews]

Rybags...don't be so nasty to the 800xl....that's what got me into things Atari

[Rybags]

Not nasty... just true.

 

I remember the UK having the same price as the US at times... and consider the Pound was/is typically near double the value of the US dollar.

 

My 800XL cost about $650 in 1984. The year before, I got my first (400). The 1010 recorder was $160.

[Shawn Jefferson]

I've got a bare 1450 board and was planning on populating it and seeing if I can't get it to run somehow. I have all the custom chips except one of the PAL chips, 'B' I think, but would have to check. I haven't gotten very far on it, and since my move it's all boxed up. I have most of the chip sockets soldered to the board...

Is it a 1450 board or a 1400? I know Best was selling 1400 boards at one point, but I don't recall them ever selling 1450 boards. Then again, are they really that different?

 

Hi Tempest,

 

It's a 1450 board, and I got it from Curt. I ordered the schematics from Best and all the parts for it that he had (Votrax chip, all the custom chips he had in stock for it.) I've gone through the schematics and made a rough list of all the resisters and caps that are mentioned... like I said though, I haven't gotten very far. Seems like real life always gets in the way!

[Shawn Jefferson]

I think that including a modem in the 1400 was an issue. By the time this would have been released 300 baud would have been too slow. They would have been better off building a "modem card" that could be plugged in a special socket. That way they could gouge, ahem, sell, the customer an upgrade later! Also, maybe the disk drive should have been an optionally unit that plugged into the PBI port and sat on top of the normal 1400XL case. They could have sold that as an upgrade too. Well, I have no idea if that would have been better and since the unit was cancelled we'll never know how successful or unsuccessful it would have been.

[Tempest]

I think that including a modem in the 1400 was an issue. By the time this would have been released 300 baud would have been too slow. They would have been better off building a "modem card" that could be plugged in a special socket. That way they could gouge, ahem, sell, the customer an upgrade later! Also, maybe the disk drive should have been an optionally unit that plugged into the PBI port and sat on top of the normal 1400XL case. They could have sold that as an upgrade too. Well, I have no idea if that would have been better and since the unit was cancelled we'll never know how successful or unsuccessful it would have been.

Agreed. A 300 baud modem was pretty out of date by then.

 

I wonder if Atari had any prototype programs that made use of the speech chip other than the 1400/1450 diagnostic cart?

 

Tempest

[+kheller2]

I've got a bare 1450 board and was planning on populating it and seeing if I can't get it to run somehow. I have all the custom chips except one of the PAL chips, 'B' I think, but would have to check. I haven't gotten very far on it, and since my move it's all boxed up. I have most of the chip sockets soldered to the board...

Is it a 1450 board or a 1400? I know Best was selling 1400 boards at one point, but I don't recall them ever selling 1450 boards. Then again, are they really that different?

 

Tempest

 

It would be a "1450" board. The "1400" board was very similar but early. The "TONG" is different altogether and I've only ever seen a few of them online. Someone should post a HI-RES of the top and bottom of at tong board,

[Bill Loguidice]

I think that including a modem in the 1400 was an issue. By the time this would have been released 300 baud would have been too slow. They would have been better off building a "modem card" that could be plugged in a special socket. That way they could gouge, ahem, sell, the customer an upgrade later! Also, maybe the disk drive should have been an optionally unit that plugged into the PBI port and sat on top of the normal 1400XL case. They could have sold that as an upgrade too. Well, I have no idea if that would have been better and since the unit was cancelled we'll never know how successful or unsuccessful it would have been.

 

While I would have loved to have the system see production, I don't think in any incarnation it would have been a success. Atari's problem was not power, it was price. The Commodore 64 undercut them and everyone else. After a few years it did become more and more about power and price became less of a factor, but not on the 8-bit level. None of the small handful of "Super 8-bits" that made it out made much of an impact, be it systems like the Commodore 128 or Color Computer 3 and unlikely any of the prototypes (TI-99/8, C-65, etc.). For whatever reason, the Commodore 64 just had the right mix of everything and most appeal to the most markets to be the only worlwide player in the 8-bit realm. The best chance for success was something like the Apple IIgs that had the right amount of power to compete in both the 16/32-bit markets and still run all the old 8-bit software, but a combination of cost and Apple holding the platform back in lieu of the Macintosh doomed that as well. Of course as has been discussed many times before, it's unlikely anything would have delayed the ultimate rise of the PC and DOS/Windows anyway by more than another year or two at best.

[+kheller2]

I'm not sure I would say it had the most appeal. I would say a lot of people upgraded from the VIC to the 64, and the 64 was always presented as more cost effective in the stores and on TV. Some of the Atari commercials were either too game like or too "professional" (Think of the Alan Alda ones's). The Commodore commercials always had a cereal box commercial feeling to them for me.

 

I knew a lot of people with Commodores and only a few with the Atari when I got my 800XL in 83/84. I tried them out firs to see which one felt better and had more features. I could make a comparison between TiVO and ReplayTV here... RTV was (and still is in some cases) superior. But, you know, Atari made games, Commodore made computers. HAH Couldn't handle hearing that rubbish all the time.

[MEtalGuy66]

My 800XL cost about $650 in 1984. The year before, I got my first (400). The 1010 recorder was $160.

 

Wow.. You got SCREWED hard & dry on that 800XL.....

 

In summer of 85, I went to SEARS and saw a MOUNTAIN of 800XLs and 600XLs (probably 100 machines or more) being "clearanced" for $35.00 and $25.00.. I picked up a 600XL just for the hell of it.. I should have bought more.. oh well..

[+kheller2]

My 800XL cost about $650 in 1984. The year before, I got my first (400). The 1010 recorder was $160.

 

Wow.. You got SCREWED hard & dry on that 800XL.....

 

In summer of 85, I went to SEARS and saw a MOUNTAIN of 800XLs and 600XLs (probably 100 machines or more) being "clearanced" for $35.00 and $25.00.. I picked up a 600XL just for the hell of it.. I should have bought more.. oh well..

 

Oh I think a lot of us have that feeling of we should have bought more. I should have bought the stacks of Vectrex units that were going for less than that too! Makes me wonder what I should be buying now to sell off in fifteen years. I did that for the Jaguar gear, I picked up cd units and consoles and games, I think I broke even on most of it.

Edited January 23, 2009 by kheller2

[Chris Strong]

One rumour includes people returning them to a store after

snagging them from the dumpster. Meaning that @ one

point these units were sold to the general public....right?

 

Okay, over the years I keep hearing people describing Atari 1400s and 1450s without nameplates as "dumpster computers".

 

I don't know where that started, but this is incorrect.

 

Atari *did* have a lot of "dumpster divers" pulling things out of the trash. Some tried to return them to the Atari Company Store inside 1265 Borregas.

 

But, as far as I know no 1450s or 1400s were ever junked. The developers wanted them. The public wanted them. Atari *was* selling the working ones out of the Atari company store.

 

All of my Atari prototypes have their nameplates except for my 1400XL (I used to have two, neither had a nameplate) or my 1450XLD.

 

I've asked about this over the years. I asked John Russell, Brad Koda and Bruce Carso back when I was first building my collection in the mid-1990s. They all told me variations on the same story: Atari was worried about the FCC. This is about the time that the FCC was *really* cracking down on RF emissions from home computers.

 

I assume everyone here knows that this is why the Atari 800 did not have I/O card slots like the Apple ][, and had such heavy shielding. The FCC demanded that anything with RF output meet broadcast standards for shielding. The Apple got around this because it did not have an RF modulator, kits were installed by dealers to provide this. The TI 99 could not meet the standards, so they simply got the computer approved without a TV out, and then got an external RF modulator and TV switch combo approved, then shipped them in the same box.

 

The FCC got annoyed at all this and was cracking down. Computer stores were no longer permitted to sell Apple computers with the illegal RF modulator installed.

 

Atari was selling these prototypes out of the company store (and I've also heard they were selling them at their Federated Department Store). But because of the FCC fears, they demanded all the computers that did NOT meet FCC shielding guidelines have the Atari nameplate removed. There was no shielding inside any of these machines (and some of the technical notes Curt has posted mentioned some issues with shielding on the 1450XLD).

 

Brad Koda told me (this was 1995 or so) that he used to sell 1200XL nameplates to people with 1400s and 1450s. They would remove the markings with Acetone and using a Kroy lettering machine, they would produce reproduction 1400 and 1450 labels. He told me the font to use, but I've now forgotten. Even at that time, he was out of 1200XL nameplates because of this.

 

So that is the story I heard. I think the dumpster story (when it comes to 1400/1450s, at least) is a myth. Tramiel's Atari would never throw anything away they could sell, anyway.

 

I do have some prototypes that came out of dumpsters. Some wirewrapped SALT boards. Apparently John Russell used to pay the bums in the area to bring him crap from the Atari dumpsters.

 

On-that note: -> Was a retail 'marked' box for the 1400XL

ever made? I know it could fit into the 1200XL retail, I'm

asking about commercial markings..... (if so please post!)

 

I know they were ordered for the 1450XLD, along with the Olympic labels. I've never seen one, though I think I may have seen a photo of the foils. I'm sure if they were ever printed, they were pulped during the crash.

 

Question 2. The built-in 300 baud dial-up tele - modem was

a leap for internal PC components, and an obvious attempt

to take a pot-shot @ IBM as a ligit communications platform.

?? - Does anyone owning an actual 1400XL have a working

internal modem?

 

I've never tried mine, but I don't know why it would not work. This was nothing new; my TRS-80 Model 100 had a 300 baud internal modem long before the 1400 was out.

 

Question 3. Voice Chip. Was this an attempt to vcopy the C64

SAM?....Or was it 'WarGames' Ready? Can anyone with a

working 1400 eXceL give us actual samples?

 

This does not make sense. SAM was out for the Atari 800 before the Commodore 64 hit the market. And the big deal about SAM was that it was a "Software Automated Mouth", meaning that you did not need hardware. The early 14xx's used the Votrax SC-01, a well known chip that was used in a lot of products, including the Q*Bert arcade game. The later (Tong) 1450XLD used the SC-02. I've never tried to use the sound in my 1450XLD, but the 1400XL will be a typical Vortrax sound. The University where I studied used SC-01's in their cardswipe doorlock systems.

 

Question 5. Do any 1400XL owners have their unit up-graded

beyond typical specs. ?, If so what?

 

If so, I hope they have not modified the hardware. You can build all the custom systems you want out of an 800XL, why trash a rare prototype?

Edited September 20, 2012 by Chris Strong

[Chris Strong]

It would be a "1450" board. The "1400" board was very similar but early. The "TONG" is different altogether and I've only ever seen a few of them online. Someone should post a HI-RES of the top and bottom of at tong board,

 

There was a 1400 and a 1450 board. As far as I know, they were the same board with a different silkscreen and the addition of an expansion connector for the floppy drive. I had both at one time, and somewhere I have photos of each. They are about the same size as a 1200XL board.

 

The 1450XLD Tong board is huge. Totally different board, with the floppy connector built in. I did photograph mine; I don't want to pull it out again because it is pretty fragile (due to the size, mainly). I can probably find the photos if people really want to see them.

 

Brad was selling the standard (non-Tong) 1450XL boards.

[Chris Strong]

Curt's the one to reply, but based on what I know...

 

Only prototype cases were built. These used a very soft waxy plastic that you could nick with your fingernail.

 

Okay, well I totally disagree with this comment. I assume you mean like a rapid prototyping plastic? I'm not saying they never existed in the 1980s, but I've never seen an Atari product from the 1980s in anything but a mold-made plastic shell. It used the same plastic formula and color as the final product, but were often "smooth case samples".

 

When Atari first had cases made, they were a "smooth case" sample, without the texturing. Once they got the final design, then the molds were textured. A lot of the engineering units would be built in the smooth plastic cases.

 

My 1400XLs were both in textured cases, the top case identical to the 1200XL and the bottom with the additional SIO cutouts. It's a full production case.. My Tong 1450XLD is in a smooth sample case.

 

On my 815s, one is an early smooth prototype, but the other two are production-stage units. One is the FCC sample (to check for noise compliance) and the other is an actual production unit (#19) that was never shipped. No waxy plastic on any of them.

 

I have some of the original 815 sample plastics. One, in smooth plastic, is labeled "Second Sampling, November 1 1980, Tool-Tech, Dual Floppy Housing, CO15903 Rev 6". So clearly they had already been through six revisions, at least two made into actual plastic runs. It's not quite right, either.

 

A later one, with texture, is labeled "6-3-81 UPM. Off of 1st produc. run of 200 plus pcs, check on trimmed and flashed areas".

 

I'm not sure _anyone_ used rapid prototyping at the time. Even the Atari clear case sample "fit" pieces I have seen have been in a production mold. This is true from my oldest prototype case (this 815 from 1980) right up to the XE units from the mid-80s (like the XTM201), even some with parts of the design sketched on in pencil are made of normal plastic in normal molds.

 

I also heard a rumor that these were bulldozed around the same time as the ET carts and that some employees broke ranks and ran into the pit and saved some.

 

I don't buy that at all, it makes no sense. The ET carts were part of a bunch of truckloads of crap hauled to the landfill in New Mexico from Atari warehouses in Forth Worth. There is no reason they would ship prototypes from Sunnyvale. A prototype 1400, even 50 of them, would not change Atari sales in anything, nor would it be returned to a distributor as shop soiled like the game carts. Plus, the stuff was hauled to the landfill by BFI waste disposal, there were no ranks of Atari employees to grab anything.

 

Finally, the ET dumping took place in September 1983 when the 1400 was still in development.

 

 

There were small isolated batches of boards that were sold off in the 90s, some populated like mine, others maybe just the bare boards with no chips. It's hard to say where these really originated.

 

Brad Koda (Best Electronics), Bruce Carso (B&C ComputerVisions) and the guy who ran San Jose Computer, whose name I forget, bought all these from Atari in the 1980s in large lots. Brad had the 1450XLD boards for sale in his catalog in 1988, I still have my copy. They were $150. Bruce ended up with some complete systems which he sold (I have one of his 1400XLs), some other stuff including some of the 1090's went to generic surplus dealers like WeirdStuff, Halted, Alltronics, etc. I still found some Atari stuff at WeirdStuff in the 1990s.

 

They split things up among them. Brad got parts, and Bruce and the San Jose guy took systems.

 

I've heard about 50 815s were made. I seem to recall around 150 1400s/1450s, and far fewer Tong 1450s existed. I'm not sure on any of those numbers...but I would believe the 815 number, as it came from the project manager.

[Chris Strong]

So I continue my 1400/1450 monologue here. I had to drive down to my office and when I got there, I decided to pull out the files I have on the 1450 and see if I can double-check a couple of these things.

 

I know they were ordered for the 1450XLD, along with the Olympic labels. I've never seen one, though I think I may have seen a photo of the foils. I'm sure if they were ever printed, they were pulped during the crash.

 

Looking back over the dates, I would think they never got to the printed stage. This is not for certain, just a educated guess. I can't say if I saw those designs or I am thinking of one of the prototype 800XL boxes. But I don't think a single box was ever printed.

 

Looking at the 1450 engineering notes Curt has on his site, http://www.atarimuse...ld/1450xld.html, on 8 November 1983 they say the 1450 tooling (molds) had been textured and 25 PCBs had been finished. So at this point the case design for the 1450 is final. The smooth case 1450 plastics are from before this date.

 

All manuals and artwork would be completed by 17 November 1983. They are talking about "Rev 2" of the 1450, and mention that the 1400 Telecom cartridge will not work on it. Perhaps this is a derivation of the Tong design?

 

It is interesting to see that 23,000 ROMS had been ordered for the 1400 Telecommunicator cartridge. I wonder what happened to them? Even at this point they were still working on FCC clearance and arguments that the products were not viable; sounds like internal fighting between departments and some serious noise issues.

 

By 29 November, only 10 1450 boards had been received by San Jose.

 

By 6 December, the notes say the 1400 has been cancelled.

 

By 16 December, they say they have ordered 150 sets of 1450XLD plastic and have 65 PCBs. They are planning to take 8 1450s to CES in January.

 

By 7 Feb 1984, they are discussing what will be the Tong board, with a 6502 (not 65816), a 1200XL keyboard and the SC02 speech chip. To be assembled at Atari El Paso (that would have been neat) with a PCB from Taiwan.

 

By 16 Feb, marketing is estimating 1985 sales of 75,000.

 

...and then we run out of documentation in the engineering notes. But the other manuals on his site show that the 1450XLD was still a viable project in April of 1984, and the latest ROM on Curt's site is from 11 June 1984. I'd have to open mine to check the dates, but since Atari Inc ceased to exist on 1 July 1984, it seems firm that the 1450XLD was under devlopment right up until the end of the company.

 

From that point, we get into the story of the Tramiel's and Amiga and all that mess, which is OT in this discussion.

[+kheller2]

I think we would all like to see some high resolution pictures of the TONG boards (both sides). hah!

 

With regards to the engineering notes, and the email dumps from the Vax and some other documents, you can put together a very good timeline of what was going on with the 14xx line. I did this a few summers ago when I came across the 130XE motherboard in the shape of an 800XL.

[Retro Rogue]

I don't buy that at all, it makes no sense. The ET carts were part of a bunch of truckloads of crap hauled to the landfill in New Mexico from Atari warehouses in Forth Worth.

 

No, that's myth. The New Mexico dump consisted of materials from the gradual shutdown of the El Paso plant - computers, consoles, peripherals and several documented games, not ET carts. The whole ET connection sprung up afterwords.

 

There is no reason they would ship prototypes from Sunnyvale.

 

That's correct, but not for that reason. New Mexico was not the main dump site, again, it was only for the shutting down of the El Paso plant. The main dump was in Sunnyvale itself, and all the warehouses across the US actually shipped their overstock back there to be dumped.

 

 

From that point, we get into the story of the Tramiel's and Amiga and all that mess, which is OT in this discussion.

 

Mickey started back in March '84, long before Tramiel. Not sure what you mean by the Amiga mess other than the counter lawsuit launched in August.

 

 

Regardless, your listings of "By such and such date" are making an assumption that it's talking about the same 1450. It's not.

 

The 1400 and 1450 were both cancelled by Morgan in '83, and then the 1450 was brought back again in '84 (which is what lead to the TONG version).

 

[+kheller2]

Regardless, your listings of "By such and such date" are making an assumption that it's talking about the same 1450. It's not.

The 1400 and 1450 were both cancelled by Morgan in '83, and then the 1450 was brought back again in '84 (which is what lead to the TONG version).

 

Not to get into an argument, but the engineering notes are talking about the 1400/1450 models up until late 83 The Tong version came in spring of 84 as I recall. (I don't have my notes in front of me.)

[Retro Rogue]

Not to get into an argument, but the engineering notes are talking about the 1400/1450 models up until late 83 The Tong version came in spring of 84 as I recall. (I don't have my notes in front of me.)

 

How is that any different than what I just said?

[+kheller2]

How is that any different than what I just said?

 

Then I clearly don't understand the context of what you originally wrote when you contradicted the "by such and such date" stating it was not the 1400/1450.

 

Unless you are contradicting the question that

All manuals and artwork would be completed by 17 November 1983. They are talking about "Rev 2" of the 1450, and mention that the 1400 Telecom cartridge will not work on it. Perhaps this is a derivation of the Tong design?"

Which it clearly was not. Although looking over the BOMs from several 14xx dates indicates there may have been a few revisions of the 1450 board outside the normal engineering revisions of making the product work.

 

In any case, I'm confused and want to see pictures of the Tong board.

Edited September 22, 2012 by kheller2

[Retro Rogue]

Then I clearly don't understand the context of what you originally wrote when you contradicted the "by such and such date" stating it was not the 1400/1450.

 

The context is that his "by such and such" statements were going on the premise that the 1450 was in continuous development through '84. It was not. As stated, the project was cancelled in '83 (hence as you said there are notes through late '83) and then restarted again in '84 (which is the TONG version). We've got the logs, emails, talked to the people involved, etc. This isn't going by guess work.

[+kheller2]

Yup. I'm confused. I don't see where "by such and such" was talking about 84, except the last two entries in Feb.

[Retro Rogue]

Yup. I'm confused. I don't see where "by such and such" was talking about 84, except the last two entries in Feb.

 

The last two entries (which you just stated above as well) and the passage afterwords which stated '...And then we run out of documentation in the engineering notes. But the other manuals on his site show that the 1450XLD was still a viable project in April of 1984, and the latest ROM on Curt's site is from 11 June 1984.'

 

Not that hard to follow, the entire "by such and such" concluding with this paragraph gives the impression that the project was continuous in to '84. It was not. It was cancelled in '83 by Morgan and then started up again in '84 as the TONG version. Not sure how many more times I can keep repeating this.

[+kheller2]

Ah, I get it now. I didn't read it as a continuous project into 84, since I knew it wasn't, but I can see now how it was worded implying that. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

The other confusing part about the 14xx line is how people are sometimes talking about the marketing label and others are talking about the motherboard used. I try to be clear with "1400", "1450" as these were silkscreened on the boards (even though later I think they intended the 1450 to be used in the 1400XL case as a cost reduction as two boards that did the same thing minus Floppy header and power was something I never understood.).

 

I do remember my 1450 not fitting into the bottom plastic of the 1450XLD case, and the shield I had was certainly for the long tong board. I've only worked on the 1400 and 1450 boards and again would love to touch a TONG board for a bit... even a hi-res scan of the board would be nice. I gave up on schematics for it long ago.

Edited September 23, 2012 by kheller2

[Innovative Leisure]

I wonder how the Tong motherboards compare with the "6402" proto.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Innovative Leisure

[carmel_andrews]

Not nasty... just true.

 

I remember the UK having the same price as the US at times... and consider the Pound was/is typically near double the value of the US dollar.

 

My 800XL cost about $650 in 1984. The year before, I got my first (400). The 1010 recorder was $160.

 

 

 

 

 

That is only true because ATARI like the other US manufacturers were playing the old 'currency exchange fix' game (where 1 gbp=1 usd) so obviously they could make almost as mucho money from uk sales as they were making in the US, i recall that tramiel stopped this practice when he started bundling 1050's and 1010's with the 800xl (i.e an xl and 1050 i think was less then 200 gbp) though you only got the 1050, not the 1010, though Atari did do another package with the 800xl and 1010 (which i think was less then 100 gbp)