atariksi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Yeah, the cheapness definately. Although the ST seems to have aged slightly better than the XE (plastic-wise). I'd put it level or slightly above the Amiga 500 so far as holding it's colour. Funny thing is, I've got a C= Plus/4, and it looks like it was made last week. If original color is yellow, it would be hard to tell if it yellowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Another post from you bitching and moaning again what a suprise. My challenge was find a game as technically stunning as and you with your so called expertise and non-fanboy replies have not posted a single video or image link to ANYTHING. And then you call me a troll for pointing out that all I get is evasive bullshit from the A8 fanboy side.. What is the "stunning factor" for that game done on the C64? Seeing the parallax working in simple char resolution is all but stunning. Actually it is ugly. The Sprite reuse is again "standard" on the C64 and the screen content is rather low. Other games show much more of it. Seeing something like this on the A8 could really be "stunning" , because you have never seen it before. You are talking about the horizontal variable speed scrolling or the 3x overlaid full screen parallax effect? The NON transparent/overlaid thing is not new and as already stated is in many games like the bonus stage of Nebulus and Tower Topler(USA) The fact that there are ANOTHER 2 levels of parallax ON TOP OF THIS in this game is what is amazing combined with the fact there can be 100 objects on screen (combinations of multiplexed sprites and overlai char graphics), I haven't seen this on ANY other 8bit machine not even super powerful Amstrad Plus range with 4096 colours or the 256 colour SAM Coupe spectrum compatible machines from late 80s let alone a 1981 machine. If you produce something as complicated smooth and colour as this on the A8 I might then listen to your SUBJECTIVE opinion on how this game looks, until then I suggest you show something or don't bother replying until you have something like a late 80s 68000 based arcade game running on YOUR humble 8bit 'super powerful' A8 too This is coming from someone who advocates using your already limited PM graphics system which is weaker than the C64 just to try and up the total number of colours on screen in 160x200 mode. If converting Last Ninja to look and play identically to C64 what chance have you got of replicating this game engine? I like how emkay and Atariski dismiss this game and yet have shown no actual running code producing something even 25% as technically stunning as this game engine...and yet this is rubbish hmmm? Ok what horizontally scrolling games with as much detail/moving object in 16 colours anywhere on screen with 100 moving objects tracked does the A8 have anyone? Subjective opinion is fine, but it is NOT evidence, especially when nothing as complex and colourful and smooth as that horizontal shooter is shown as comparable on the Atari please remember this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Yeah, the cheapness definately. Although the ST seems to have aged slightly better than the XE (plastic-wise). I'd put it level or slightly above the Amiga 500 so far as holding it's colour. Funny thing is, I've got a C= Plus/4, and it looks like it was made last week. If original color is yellow, it would be hard to tell if it yellowed. The plus four is black and the keyboard a sort of Atari ST shade of grey, and believe me those grey keys do yellow quite badly sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Yeah, the cheapness definately. Although the ST seems to have aged slightly better than the XE (plastic-wise). I'd put it level or slightly above the Amiga 500 so far as holding it's colour. Funny thing is, I've got a C= Plus/4, and it looks like it was made last week. If original color is yellow, it would be hard to tell if it yellowed. The plus four is black and the keyboard a sort of Atari ST shade of grey, and believe me those grey keys do yellow quite badly sometimes My 800XL has not yellowed and some I got from Ebay that have yellowed so other factors must be involved not just age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 You are talking about the horizontal variable speed scrolling or the 3x overlaid full screen parallax effect? The NON transparent/overlaid thing is not new and as already stated is in many games like the bonus stage of Nebulus and Tower Topler(USA) Different speeds on different lines is not real parallax. Where is there something like a 3x overlaid parallax? The fact that there are ANOTHER 2 levels of parallax ON TOP OF THIS in this game is what is amazing combined with the fact there can be 100 objects on screen (combinations of multiplexed sprites and overlai char graphics), I haven't seen this on ANY other 8bit machine not even super powerful Amstrad Plus range with 4096 colours or the 256 colour SAM Coupe spectrum compatible machines from late 80s let alone a 1981 machine. Depending on the C64's capabilities there is nothing new. Only the impression of a C64 fanboy may vary If you produce something as complicated smooth and colour as this on the A8 I might then listen to your SUBJECTIVE opinion on how this game looks, until then I suggest you show something or don't bother replying until you have something like a late 80s 68000 based arcade game running on YOUR humble 8bit 'super powerful' A8 too There is nothing subjective if you see huge blocks of graphics that doesn't belong to the gamescreen. Someone may remove that and then we will see... This is coming from someone who advocates using your already limited PM graphics system which is weaker than the C64 just to try and up the total number of colours on screen in 160x200 mode. If converting Last Ninja to look and play identically to C64 what chance have you got of replicating this game engine? remove some stuff and add some stuff. I like how emkay and Atariski dismiss this game and yet have shown no actual running code producing something even 25% as technically stunning as this game engine...and yet this is rubbish hmmm? Well, I was impressed while looking at the levels of enforcer 2 at youtube. But then I started them in the c64 emulator... Ok what horizontally scrolling games with as much detail/moving object in 16 colours anywhere on screen with 100 moving objects tracked does the A8 have anyone? Subjective opinion is fine, but it is NOT evidence, especially when nothing as complex and colourful and smooth as that horizontal shooter is shown as comparable on the Atari please remember this 16 colours anywhere... the screenshots never reach 16 colours.... tsssssssss I stated before, that the C64 can be better in horizontal shooters than the A8. It is all clear: C64 has features that can simply be reused, you don't need to be a clever guy, just some coding experience and knowledge about VICII's features for a game like that. The sprites are separate programmable by pointers, so you can do all needed stuff by arranging the registers in a clean logical way. But to mix the border of the "char" objects seems to be not possible there. It makes sense! The C64 has no time left for doing that, because all the sprite reuse slows the cpu down heavily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Another post from you bitching and moaning again what a suprise. My challenge was find a game as technically stunning as and you with your so called expertise and non-fanboy replies have not posted a single video or image link to ANYTHING. And then you call me a troll for pointing out that all I get is evasive bullshit from the A8 fanboy side.. What is the "stunning factor" for that game done on the C64? Seeing the parallax working in simple char resolution is all but stunning. Actually it is ugly. The Sprite reuse is again "standard" on the C64 and the screen content is rather low. Other games show much more of it. Seeing something like this on the A8 could really be "stunning" , because you have never seen it before. You are talking about the horizontal variable speed scrolling or the 3x overlaid full screen parallax effect? The NON transparent/overlaid thing is not new and as already stated is in many games like the bonus stage of Nebulus and Tower Topler(USA) The fact that there are ANOTHER 2 levels of parallax ON TOP OF THIS in this game is what is amazing combined with the fact there can be 100 objects on screen (combinations of multiplexed sprites and overlai char graphics), I haven't seen this on ANY other 8bit machine not even super powerful Amstrad Plus range with 4096 colours or the 256 colour SAM Coupe spectrum compatible machines from late 80s let alone a 1981 machine. If you produce something as complicated smooth and colour as this on the A8 I might then listen to your SUBJECTIVE opinion on how this game looks, until then I suggest you show something or don't bother replying until you have something like a late 80s 68000 based arcade game running on YOUR humble 8bit 'super powerful' A8 too This is coming from someone who advocates using your already limited PM graphics system which is weaker than the C64 just to try and up the total number of colours on screen in 160x200 mode. If converting Last Ninja to look and play identically to C64 what chance have you got of replicating this game engine? I like how emkay and Atariski dismiss this game and yet have shown no actual running code producing something even 25% as technically stunning as this game engine...and yet this is rubbish hmmm? Ok what horizontally scrolling games with as much detail/moving object in 16 colours anywhere on screen with 100 moving objects tracked does the A8 have anyone? Subjective opinion is fine, but it is NOT evidence, especially when nothing as complex and colourful and smooth as that horizontal shooter is shown as comparable on the Atari please remember this I dismissed your absurd conclusion you drew based on one game not the game. I don't have most of the games on both machines to do a fair comparison of games. You also use the word "anywhere" for the 16 colors although that's a mistake already proven in this thread. Looking at the video, I don't see why you can't have a scrolling background on A8. And I gave algorithm for 2000+ moving sprites on A8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 ...If you are going to invest in the Atari (and I hope you do), exploiting it in this way is more in the spirit of Atari games than not. Give it some thought. This focus of mine on platform games is a simple product of my current project for C64 - a jump and run platform shooter... I know they have been done before but I have some tricks in my sleeve to improve general concept a little bit... And since I have my Atari 800xl and haven't seen a really good jump and run game for it, I thought to reuse graphics and change code as necesary and "smash two flies with one hit" I must admit I didnt know almost anything about atari hardware till recently (I just played games on it)... But since Yoomp came out, I started investigating deeper and deeper So I am investing a good portion of my free time on it and I hope it will produce something good enough to show... I think Atari can be excellent for 3D so thats the way I would go.... Maybe it will be a platformer, maybe a new sentinel clone, maybe a freescape kind of routine, maybe just a demo or a mockup screen .... I hope for the best... Thanks for good wishes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 ... I already gave example how to get 160*200*8 mode uniformly so your theory of 4/5 color limit is complete rubbish... Could you point me to the post in wich you explained that... Thank you.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R4ngerM4n Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Maybe someone can help me: I do not get the point of the whole thread. Where is the sense to discuss general questions like Atari vs Commodore again and again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 My 800XL has not yellowed and some I got from Ebay that have yellowed so other factors must be involved not just age. 1. Composition of plastic (flame retardant additives) 2. Amount of exposure to UV light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Maybe someone can help me: I do not get the point of the whole thread. Where is the sense to discuss general questions like Atari vs Commodore again and again? The point is to have something to do when you live in your parents' basement and don't have a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I actually started using Ataris for science projects so gaming was just for playing not coding. So I look at Ataris as computers as well not just for games so research of software just on games is not going to be definitive to decide a computer's superiority. I guess SIO port and faster cpu are usefull in that department... Would love to have something like that on C64 ... We had to make our own boards and stick them in expansion port We used C64 for programming eproms and microcontrolers... Even used it to flash bios of a PC motherboard If it's FLI, it's not 160*200 FLI. Its shrinked 3 chars from left because of Fli bug... And probably because of simmetry they shrinked it 3 chars from right to.... So its 136*200 FLI And please don't blame coder for not such a good picture... He set a record with that demo part... It does what it says... 6 sprites over FLI image... All linear graphics modes use horizontal lines no regions. Amiga doesn't use regions of colors. And Atari isn't just horizontal lines-- it's not uniform regions like C64 uses for coloring. Yeah, but on amiga you got bigger bit-depth so more colors nativly in higher resolution... So it doesn't matter that display is line based... They still used Tile based engines... My only regret with non-gtia Atari graphic modes is that basic hardware modes are maximum 2 bits a pixel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Maybe someone can help me: I do not get the point of the whole thread. Where is the sense to discuss general questions like Atari vs Commodore again and again? The point is to have something to do when you live in your parents' basement and don't have a job. Uffff.... If I didn't had a job, and lived in a basement then you would see! I would post 20 times a day atleast! Seriouslly, I guess its interesting enough... How else can I explain, being in office, and colleagues telling me some important stuff about a big job, and I'm thinking "If I put Player 0 and then missile 0 and than turn on Gprior and make them quad sized and then put a dli in every line ?...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRV Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Uffff.... If I didn't had a job, and lived in a basement then you would see!I would post 20 times a day atleast! but who would be answering that 20 posts? ... oh wait... Seriouslly, I guess its interesting enough...How else can I explain, being in office, and colleagues telling me some important stuff about a big job, and I'm thinking "If I put Player 0 and then missile 0 and than turn on Gprior and make them quad sized and then put a dli in every line ?...." haha I know that feeling.. hmmm from a friend, you know NRV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Maybe someone can help me: I do not get the point of the whole thread. Where is the sense to discuss general questions like Atari vs Commodore again and again? You know those episodes of Star Trek or Stargate on television when they are stuck in a time loop....this is what it is here with this thread! Soon the space time continuum will collapse the universe will reset and someone will start this thread on page one again No quarter is given, no concession is made, and so the two sides will remain either side of no man's land in our Atari and Commodore trenches firing pot shots at each other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oky2000 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I actually started using Ataris for science projects so gaming was just for playing not coding. So I look at Ataris as computers as well not just for games so research of software just on games is not going to be definitive to decide a computer's superiority. I guess SIO port and faster cpu are usefull in that department... Would love to have something like that on C64 ... We had to make our own boards and stick them in expansion port We used C64 for programming eproms and microcontrolers... Even used it to flash bios of a PC motherboard If it's FLI, it's not 160*200 FLI. Its shrinked 3 chars from left because of Fli bug... And probably because of simmetry they shrinked it 3 chars from right to.... So its 136*200 FLI And please don't blame coder for not such a good picture... He set a record with that demo part... It does what it says... 6 sprites over FLI image... All linear graphics modes use horizontal lines no regions. Amiga doesn't use regions of colors. And Atari isn't just horizontal lines-- it's not uniform regions like C64 uses for coloring. Yeah, but on amiga you got bigger bit-depth so more colors nativly in higher resolution... So it doesn't matter that display is line based... They still used Tile based engines... My only regret with non-gtia Atari graphic modes is that basic hardware modes are maximum 2 bits a pixel... Well here we have an interesting new point at last....now bear with me. The Atari was designed by a gaming company to make the ultimate home computer to further expand their gaming licences into the home computer market (you can argue all you like BUT at this time Atari was a games company and games were the most important thing) However they produce the expensive Atari 800 with excellent IO (apart from difficulty in creating software turbo tape loaders in their time) and fast CPU. Then on the other hand we have Commodore, which had no gaming history in 1980 or before and yet what happened, due to the acquisition of MOS technologies a design for an ultimate arcade motherboard was requested, this was completed mostly by only two MOS engineers (both of which left Commodore before their next machine following the C64 by the way so the ST has NO relation to the C64 from the engineering side) and then as the arcade market was looking to go a bit shaky Jack ordered it be turned into a home computer. So the company who produced the pioneering (historical fact not my opinion) PET series launched the C64. Funny the way things turn out. And actually totally in the spirit of Jay Miner who always dreamt of building a machine that could destroy the competing games consoles AND home computers, which his Amiga (with RJM and co's help) did nicely What I will say about the Amiga is the colour resolution/bitplane depth was an arbitrary cut-off, there was no technical reason why they couldn't use a little more silicon and increase it to 8 bit planes at the time, time and companies lack of funds were the main problem not the technical skill of the designers. Remember 2/3 of the Amiga team (ie NOT Jay Miner) took the Amiga chipset and added some pretty impressive sprite scaling technology which could easily have been added to the Amiga given more funds and another 12 months of development time with no pressure from the banks to foreclose or Commodore/Atari trying to screw them into selling their golden egg. Sometimes I really wish neither Commodore OR Atari had bought Amiga and they had the funds to market and sell the machine themselves. And the same goes for the Epyx Handy which became the Atari Lynx 2-3 years AFTER it was finished. Both companies screwed up real bad. The Amiga should still be here NOT crappy PCs and Macs *puke* AND Nintendo's piece of shit Gameboy would have flopped IF Jack had given the green light to make the Atari Lynx WHEN IT WAS FINISHED not when they were up shit street with the Amiga/ST wars and were desperate and too late to the party for the Lynx to ever beat Nintendo. I am NOT a C= fan boy (anyone who can't see this must be a non-commodore fanboy be it sinclair or atari or amstrad) as there are quite a few games I have already openly admitted are better on the A8 (due to the design of the machine and its different set of compromises) BUT what I do know is that neither Microsoft or Nintendo deserve their current monopoly, if the world was a decent place I could walk into a shop tomorrow and buy a new Atari or Commodore or even Sega machine off the shelf, but no I have only the choice of shitty Apple/PC computer and a shitty Nintendo handheld console for girls and gays not for normal people who love arcade games or REAL PROPER computers that work properly and reliably for two decades! Atari is dead, Commodore is dead, and guess what so are exciting home computers, we can bitch and moan for another 100 pages but the real tragedy is this. We are luckily we lived in those good times when every new machine was a revolution and we had the chance to live those great days of early home computing, not the facebook/msn/twitter gayfest that 'home computing' has become now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 It's only a gayfest, if you think it is. Lots of us are retro computing, working on micro controllers, running Linux and doing lots of interesting stuff that's not all too different from those times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 (edited) What I will say about the Amiga is the colour resolution/bitplane depth was an arbitrary cut-off, there was no technical reason why they couldn't use a little more silicon and increase it to 8 bit planes at the time, time and companies ... This from a C64 related guy? Actually, a little more silicon put into vic, and the world had seen the first homecomputer with real colour graphics. A little more silicon , and the world would have had a real synthesizer in this computer A little more silicon and the CPU was fast enough to drive it all ... Sometimes I really wish neither Commodore OR Atari had bought Amiga and they had the funds to market and sell the machine themselves. Wrong thinking. Everyone awaited the AMIGA through Commodore, because they had seen the AMIGA as the C64 successor. The hype around the C64 sold also the ecs/ocs Amigas. In the 1st years it was also handled like this. Many people did recordings from the SID and used Paula to make 4 channel SID music, instead of doing clean music. Seeing the AMIGA as a co work of ATARI and Commodore knowledge, they really should have sticked together and to push the market. I'd rather like to have a "Atarimore" or "Commotari" computer today than the Windows PC. But, as it seems, only Intel and Microsoft did it the correct way. Edited July 5, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Excuse me if this is of topic, but did someone here mentioned something about a bunch of Ataris connected with sio ports working together ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I Think the Atari 8-bit would win over the C64. Hey! If anyone is interested in selling a C64 or Atari 8-bit computer, im looking for one. I have a couple of 8-bit Ataris that just need a chip replacement to get them going. I have an Atari 400 that has a bad 6502B (which is socketed) and another one I haven't narrowed down yet. Ebay should get you a good price if you risk it and buy it "AS IS". Anyone know an easy way to get a 6502B? Is there one socketed in another hardware that's readily available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 ...The Atari was designed by a gaming company to make the ultimate home computer to further expand their gaming licences into the home computer market (you can argue all you like BUT at this time Atari was a games company and games were the most important thing) However they produce the expensive Atari 800 with excellent IO (apart from difficulty in creating software turbo tape loaders in their time) and fast CPU. ... They were still doing gaming consoles during Atari 800/400 run. I think the 7800 was an advancement in colors/sprites for games (although not as flexibile as a computer w/disk drives, more RAM, etc.). And they should have made 7800 like XEGS and backward compatible with 8-bit line. >Atari is dead, Commodore is dead, and guess what so are exciting home computers, we can bitch and moan for another 100 pages but the real tragedy is this. We are luckily we lived in those good times when every new machine was a revolution and we had the chance to live those great days of early home computing, not the facebook/msn/twitter gayfest that 'home computing' has become now Retro-machines are alive for those that still have a use for some of their uniqueness. They are dead from marketing point of view because companies are bankrupt. I think it's quite useful to be able to boot up a machine like Atari in one second and with a few POKE 54016/54018 test some cable/circuit and write some quick BASIC program or some quick ASM program that cycle-exact precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Early Apple II ? IIRC, the 6502 in the 400/800 is just off-the-shelf, whereas the later machines have Sally which is the specific model for Atari with the DMA line rather than the older off-chip bus decoupling method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Excuse me if this is of topic, but did someone here mentioned something about a bunch of Ataris connected with sio ports working together ? Just to emphasize further, I never complained about anyone being off-topic just about confusing two different topics together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spookt Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I Think the Atari 8-bit would win over the C64. Hey! If anyone is interested in selling a C64 or Atari 8-bit computer, im looking for one. I have a couple of 8-bit Ataris that just need a chip replacement to get them going. I have an Atari 400 that has a bad 6502B (which is socketed) and another one I haven't narrowed down yet. Ebay should get you a good price if you risk it and buy it "AS IS". Anyone know an easy way to get a 6502B? Is there one socketed in another hardware that's readily available? This page on Best Electronics site lists the 6502B: 6502B (400 / 800 / Happy Upgrades) CO14377 $6.95 Can't beat 'em for service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Early Apple II ? IIRC, the 6502 in the 400/800 is just off-the-shelf, whereas the later machines have Sally which is the specific model for Atari with the DMA line rather than the older off-chip bus decoupling method. How many different 6502s are there? I think one Apple model has a 6502C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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