Heaven/TQA Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 yes... I know... and of course Alternare Reality... HERO... Keystone Kapers... Pitfall II... 7 Cities of Gold... MULE... Spelunker... International Karate... Blue Max but unfortunatly... there are lot of games where the c64 version is better or where no A8 Version exists... BMX Simulator Last V8 Zybex Ghostbusters Ultima series or Bards Tale Series... Uridium... Paradroid... Microprose Soccer... Ghost and Goblins... Summer Games II/Wintergames/World Games... just to name few out of the thousands... sad but true... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youki Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Hm. You name two game, the C64 never can reach their qualities, and say you're not convinced that the A8 is better ? ???...what games your mean. Except that the 64 version will look surely different, i'm pretty sure it can reach their qualites with no problem. Your space harrier is very nice (mainly if you compare to the 2 awfull version the c64 had), but if you take a good C64 coder and give him the same amount of time you Space Harrier has been developper, you will have a result as good if not better. it will look different surely , but will be as good. no doubt about that. But there is NO serious 1st person or ISO 3D game available on the C64. There is a bunch of good ISO 3D game on C64. What kind of game you think about? What you call serious 1st person shooter on Atari? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Best example for worse Iso 3D is the last ninja series. What you call serious 1st person shooter on Atari? You can run them side a side on 2 different windows. One of them is an interactive slideshow. The other one is a serious playable game. Not to mention that the C64 version got several optimisations to run at that "speed"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 "soundwise SID gets no advantage". Emkay, have you turned your speakers on? the game has digi music and sound effects. Listen to the "Digi-Music" . Doesn't it sound really worse for a super CPU based Digi-Music ? Sometimes I really wonder if people really can imagine, what the A8 is capable of, when using a super CPU for such game. Look. You see a limited value of Sprites, you see a limited value of colours and you hear "Digi-Music" without really clean sounds. Just like the good old C64 offers. On the A8 you'd gain real clean sounds, 128 colours on the screen, and a screen full of big moving objects. please dont change the subject. you said that the supercpu doesnt has "sid advantage" which is not true. this is the only c64 game with high quality (c64wise) ingame digi music & sfx thanks to the supercpu. as for your other claims: we have a c64 bullet hell game with 16 colors, with a screen full of big moving objects with digi music&sfx vs your imagination, which doesnt proves anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnacle boy Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Vertical shooters could easily outdo C64, but only if there goes a big bang and some guy start programming the Atari, where Archer McLean stopped. Aha. Sure. I wonder if the Atari can even display a vertical scrolling shmup as colourful as what Joe c64 owner can make in SEUCK. mmm... could you tell me specifically in detail what do you see on those games (Crownland, Yoomp, Space Harrier, Bombjack) that didn't convince Atari is better? Space Harrier is definitely impressive, but the colour flickering is kind of offputting. The colour limitations on the Atari is one of my main reservations about it. That and the narrow sprites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Best example for worse Iso 3D is the last ninja series. What you call serious 1st person shooter on Atari? You can run them side a side on 2 different windows. One of them is an interactive slideshow. The other one is a serious playable game. Not to mention that the C64 version got several optimisations to run at that "speed"... haha... love it... but that's an exception... compared to the other games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 but that's an exception... compared to the other games... It belongs to all 1st person games on the C64. Either they run like an interactive slideshow or they use very raw movent (mostly charmode resolution) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 please dont change the subject. you said that the supercpu doesnt has "sid advantage" which is not true. this is the only c64 game with high quality (c64wise) ingame digi music & sfx thanks to the supercpu. You have not understand what I wrote. I wrote that SID doesn't take advantage by the higher clocked CPU. SID does not make the digi sounds at all. The voices also do not "sound" better. as for your other claims: we have a c64 bullet hell game with 16 colors, with a screen full of big moving objects with digi music&sfx vs your imagination, which doesnt proves anything.[/quote ] Space Harrier proves all already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Space Harrier is definitely impressive, but the colour flickering is kind of offputting. The colour limitations on the Atari is one of my main reservations about it. That and the narrow sprites. The flicker is a result of the fact that the main source of the game was there when Sheddy didn't realise, what he knows today. With a different start, the game can have even more colours without flicker. GR. 7 with GPRIOR overlayed Players offers up to 21 colours per scanline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 You have not understand what I wrote. I wrote that SID doesn't take advantage by the higher clocked CPU. SID does not make the digi sounds at all. The voices also do not "sound" better. Space Harrier proves all already. The SID takes advantage of the higher clocked cpu. The sound is much better than what the SID is normally capable of. The video prooves it, and the SID does make the digi sounds. What else would make it? the CIA chips ? Space Harrier indeed proves that in real life game situations a8 needs to interlace the colors to get more than 4 on the screen. How do you think would it display 128 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Just a little tour to remember Atari games tour That's quite a cool site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) The SID takes advantage of the higher clocked cpu. The sound is much better than what the SID is normally capable of. The video prooves it, and the SID does make the digi sounds. What else would make it? the CIA chips ? In theory It is caused by a design flaw of the C64. The "flaw" was reduced with the 8xxx version of the SID which makes this type of digitizing useless. It's similar to the Highspeed Disk access. IT doesn't run on all C64 machines, thus it never went to be a standard there. Space Harrier indeed proves that in real life game situations a8 needs to interlace the colors to get more than 4 on the screen. How do you think would it display 128 ? Look at G2F. Add the GPRIOR functions that it does not support.... and then think about a ten times faster CPU... Even without the faster CPU, the usage of the players can be changed to simple shape usage overlayed by the playfield colours. Edited April 12, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastRobPlus Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 yes... I know... and of course Alternare Reality... HERO... Keystone Kapers... Pitfall II... 7 Cities of Gold... MULE... Spelunker... International Karate... Blue Max but unfortunatly... there are lot of games where the c64 version is better or where no A8 Version exists... BMX Simulator Last V8 Zybex Ghostbusters Ultima series or Bards Tale Series... Uridium... Paradroid... Microprose Soccer... Ghost and Goblins... Summer Games II/Wintergames/World Games... just to name few out of the thousands... sad but true... That's due to the times of the two systems not overlapping (It's the same reason C64 does not have Alley Cat) Ultima is better on the Atari (much more responsive) until you get to IV, where the Atari version looses the music to fit the game into 48K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) Some known guy posted this on Youtube Reminds very much about the page handling of the Amiga's Workbench (running a word processor in front of a demo at the same time. Only someone should do a better sound for the demo Edited April 12, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Zynar 2000 - can someone enlighten me? Never heard of it before, and it's not at Fandal's, Atarimania or the Vjetnam archive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 The SID takes advantage of the higher clocked cpu. The sound is much better than what the SID is normally capable of. The video prooves it, and the SID does make the digi sounds. What else would make it? the CIA chips ? In theory It is caused by a design flaw of the C64. The "flaw" was reduced with the 8xxx version of the SID which makes this type of digitizing useless. It's similar to the Highspeed Disk access. IT doesn't run on all C64 machines, thus it never went to be a standard there. Space Harrier indeed proves that in real life game situations a8 needs to interlace the colors to get more than 4 on the screen. How do you think would it display 128 ? Look at G2F. Add the GPRIOR functions that it does not support.... and then think about a ten times faster CPU... Even without the faster CPU, the usage of the players can be changed to simple shape usage overlayed by the playfield colours. with this kind of arguing, similarly I can claim that all demos that use nonstandard ram expansions only exists in theory. lets start with numen... . So please can we finally agree that the SID benefits from higher clocked cpu regarding metal dust, it has better sound than normal SID, and the SID does the digi sound? G2F supports static GFX, and G2F pictures hardly ever use more than 20-25 colors. Also in real life game situations G2F techniques are useless. Just like you cant use C64's most advanced cpu driven non interlaced 320x200x16 formats for games, neither can you use G2F format on Atari. Not even with a higher clocked cpu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfram Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Best example for worse Iso 3D is the last ninja series. the last ninja series are the best ever selling games of the c64, and in fact are amongst the best c64 games. you really shouldnt go there. With your kind of argumentation I could easily pull out the stunt that rescue on fractalus has worse 3d than c64. C64 has many many 3d games which has features unseen in ROF. So let's just play it fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drac030 Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 nonstandard ram expansions You're really very funny with this. One question: if 320K is a "nonstandard" RAM expansion, then which one is "standard"? 1064? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Also in real life game situations G2F techniques are useless. Just like you cant use C64's most advanced cpu driven non interlaced 320x200x16 formats for games, neither can you use G2F format on Atari. Not even with a higher clocked cpu. Not quite useless. Consider a situation on both machines where 20 character lines use 100% of the CPU for G2F, iFLI, whatever. That's 160 of 312 scanlines on PAL. Consider that we have the remaining 40 just normal text type stuff for score, status, whatever. C-64, leaves you about 9,600 cycles free considering 200 lost for 5x40 character fetches, compared to the normal of ~ 19,280. Atari, leaves you about 15,500 cycles free considering 1,800 lost for 5x40 character fetches and 40x40 charmap fetches, compared to the normal of ~ 26896. And, you're not totally wasting the kernal section of the screen... with some creative programming you can put the spare cycles to good use doing housekeeping stuff that you might normally do during VBlank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Zynar 2000 - can someone enlighten me? Never heard of it before, and it's not at Fandal's, Atarimania or the Vjetnam archive. I don't know have this name. I found it as Cygnus X1: Cygnus X1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Thanks... let's just forget about that one. One of those "Wow" from the picture efforts that ends in total disappointment when you load the thing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) Best example for worse Iso 3D is the last ninja series. the last ninja series are the best ever selling games of the c64, and in fact are amongst the best c64 games. you really shouldnt go there. With your kind of argumentation I could easily pull out the stunt that rescue on fractalus has worse 3d than c64. C64 has many many 3d games which has features unseen in ROF. So let's just play it fair. Fair is that the Last Ninja series were playable crap. People only liked them, because the C64 shows colours and has nice Sid tunes in it. "Many 3D" ... well, Quality <> Quantity. There is really no 3D game on the C64 worth a word to write, except to mention that they were slow, ugly, and playable crap, if you're not C64 biased. OK, some rastertrick games like Trailblazer were fast. But that's a different story. Some games like Head over Heels use programming tricks like interleaved object movement, where on the A8 the objects move at the same time. and so on... Edited April 12, 2009 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyace Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 (edited) Some known guy posted this on Youtube Reminds very much about the page handling of the Amiga's Workbench (running a word processor in front of a demo at the same time. Only someone should do a better sound for the demo is there a ATR or XEX of that demo? I've not seen it before EDIT: Dont worry, found it... http://atari.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=3479 Edited April 12, 2009 by Crazyace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 Pacman and others some noted were conspiracy by Atarisoft to produce inferior versions on C64 to make Atari look better. Pacman is absolutely no reference. It doesnt make use of the A8s or C64s hardware at all, it could look exactly the same on both platforms without any effort. Btw, I agree with Heavens list. Those games show where the strengths of the A8 are. That's the point. You can't judge hardware by giving a bigger list of games for one platform. As I stated games have some objective to achieve-- using all the hardware resources is not their objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atariksi Posted April 12, 2009 Share Posted April 12, 2009 I just say that in general C64 version of a same game is better than Atari version. Despite you claim that Atari has a better hardware. And i agree on the "paper" Atari hardware could seems better. ... Okay, so if you agree hardware is better (as also shown in this thread), then why claim the opposite by just looking at some selection of software. As I stated earlier and others have stated people developed for non-GTIA systems, lesser memory, were ports from other systems, etc. Certain things like using more memory and GTIA modes is easy to do on Atari, but they weren't used. Other things like using 4 DACs, temporal dithering (interlacing), kernel coding, etc. may require more work on the developer's part. There's hardly any games earlier on that use kernels which saves a ton of cycles rather on interrupting the CPU every DLI. >But the fact is that there is more game better on C64 than the opposite. That's not a fact. That's your opinion. As Heaven, Allas, and others have listed software which is better on Atari. hum...i think it is my english that is bad... I never said that there is no Atari game that are better then C64 game , i have even posted some in this thread. I say that there are lot of more C64 game better than Atari game that Atari games better then C64. That is the fact. ... You have not seen all the games/applications to make the conclusion. And nor does one system having more games undoable on another prove anything about the hardware. There were earlier systems that only had a few titles in their existence and they were hard to do on other systems. >I don't agree the Atari's Hardware is better. I jut say on the paper it could seems better. But in facts , i didn't see any evidence that the hardware is better. It's true on paper and on PCB. You have to refute the arguments regarding hardware made earlier rather than express your opinion. You have not seen lots of things-- you already admitted you haven't seen my work. I don't think C64 has a 160*200*16 mode-- never seen any evidence. >In addition, in another posts, you are talking about your 320k machine as "standard" , and i think i read the C64 is limited to 64k..etc..etc.. See now you are confused. I stated that it works on all Ataris. I don't have any Atari that's 320K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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