Atari v Commodore

[atariksi]

...

C-64 on the top again. The disproportion in quality makes it so humiliating.... I think that words are needless here.

...

"humiliating" is really not needed there...

If you want people to take you seriouslly stay away from such phrases...

 

English is a beautiful language, there are so many more words you could use...

 

p.s. Never seen that game, really does look better on C64...

 

Popmilo, your posts and words are rational and reasonable to me, so all I can say you are right here. Probably I have gone too far with teasing and I am sorry for that. Anyway, soon I am going to prove that C-64 can handle iso 3D games better than Atari

 

Your reasoning was already refuted and rather than reply to that you go on with your same reasoning. You have NOT proven Atari is inferior with examples that show off wider sprites or color RAM of 40*25 of 16 colors force fitted to every object on earth. You need to find some other hardware aspect to show what C64 hardware can do. What goes into building a particular game is not necessarily what the hardware matches up with. You neither stick to original topic nor the general topic of "Atari vs. Commodore."

 

Funny, I don't remember you saying anything like that when Allas was doing exactly the same thing. Maybe because he was showing (example after example) games that look better on Atari ? You know, it is called a double morality

 

First of all, I don't think you even understood what I wrote above (re-read). Secondly, Allas has a right to do that in this topic as per original poster's request. Thirdly, I am arguing against the conclusions that you are drawing from your examples. Fourthly, ... I'll stop for now until you get the first three statements.

 

I understood you perfectly. You would like me to stop posting, since you don't like what you see. Anyway, if you are tough enough please scroll down, I am showing the other type of game that can be better on C64, even though a lot of atarians have said otherwise

 

You can speculate what you like. I stick by what I stated:

 

Your reasoning was already refuted and rather than reply to that you go on with your same reasoning. You have NOT proven Atari is inferior with examples that show off wider sprites or color RAM of 40*25 of 16 colors force fitted to every object on earth. You need to find some other hardware aspect to show what C64 hardware can do. What goes into building a particular game is not necessarily what the hardware matches up with. You neither stick to original topic nor the general topic of "Atari vs. Commodore."

 

Learn some English. You can't draw your conclusion of a machine's inferiority even if you put a million examples of wider sprites or restricted 40*25 color RAM pictures.

[atariksi]

 

Anyway, here's you, you look and play horrible on C64 AND A8, only you manage to do so (Attention, these two games are NOT Boulder Dash):

Rockford C64

Rockford A8

again, both from Mastertronic.

 

 

 

Do not get overexcited, please There is no use showing games that look the same on both computers.

 

Even if they were the same, shouldn't C64 look better according to your distorted way of drawing conclusions. Every C64 game should have better graphics than A8.

[atariksi]

I don't think there are more cases where raster interrupts require splitting mode lines. That's your speculation.

 

It's not speculation as such on the C64 side since amongst other things the comment was based on my own need for it in the past for both demos and games and things like half FLI mode requiring it, there are hundreds of demos (as well as a few games, the MOOD previews for example) utilising that mode or variations on it. One of my early "still learning to code" colour splitting routines worked by pulling up a raster interrupt every other scanline to change the colours...

...

DLIs don't exist on C64 side. Also, C64 does more text-based graphics since that's the way their hardware is organized and thus you have 8 scanlines/mode line.

 

>>In general, Atari games/applications use DLIs exactly for what they are meant. And remember that in single scanline modes (which includes GTIA modes), you do get DLIs on every scan line in the most efficient way possible (better than IRQs).

 

>You keep saying "for what they're meant" but surely the function is being defined by the form; they're only able to do that easily so most programmers don't buck the hardware's trend...

 

I defined it EXACTLY. The DLI occurs after finishing the display list instruction. That's what it meant to do. Because you can change modes on a scanline basis, you can also set it's attributes through a DLI.

 

>and yes, you get a DLI wherever in single scanline modes, but that loses you one of the five playfield colours and multiples the screen memory overheads by eight in the process...

 

No, even in text-based 5-color graphics modes, you get to have a DLI every 8 or 16 scanlines. You are talking about special cases where you need more colors in-between one mode's scanlines not general cases.

[atariksi]

...

so a small change to Display List, no CPU intervention needed. Sorry

 

So that'd be a couple of instructions executed by the CPU to change the display list... an LDA/STA pair like the C64 uses to change a bank perhaps...? =-)

 

LMS is two extra DMA cycles and supported by ANTIC chip and done without CPU intervention (and can be done even within BASIC). LDA/STA pair is 6 CPU cycles at least and has to be done with a raster interrupt at the right scanline on the screen-- more headache for the programmer.

[frenchman]

Mastertronic, a UK mass-producing cheap games company.

But sometimes they get it right:

Mastertronic, a UK mass-producing cheap games company.

But sometimes they get it right:

Amaurote Atari 8-bit:

isometric view, excellent playabilty

 

Amaurote C64:

top down view because C64 couldn't handle the isometric and totally unplayable. In Rockfords words: The disproportion in quality makes it so humiliating.... I think that words are needless here.

 

This example has been already shown, so try harder please and find something new.

 

 

It's so good it's allowed to be shown twice.

 

 

 

Is that so, or maybe you cannot find another one, because they don't exist ? Anyway, let's hope you will not be forced to do this again and again, since we would die with boredom

 

 

HERE'S HOPING

[AtariNerd]

My poor attempt at bombastic troll-like manipulation had only even poorer results and merely wound up making me look the fool. I should know better..negatives never creative a positive. I'm going to try a more proactive, affirming approach or am staying out of this for good.

[Allas]

 

C-64 stomps on Atari again, since it has music (by Rob Hubbard) and digitized voice (not such things on Atari), more colours on sreen and works much faster. Atari version is sloooooow. If you don't believe just check it

 

 

Chimera is not 100% an isometric 3D game on C64. The main character is a sprite.

[PeteD]

 

C-64 stomps on Atari again, since it has music (by Rob Hubbard) and digitized voice (not such things on Atari), more colours on sreen and works much faster. Atari version is sloooooow. If you don't believe just check it

 

 

Chimera is not 100% an isometric 3D game on C64. The main character is a sprite.

 

I'd still class it as isometric though, the world is in the usual viewpoint, the player moves around it masking behind walls etc, doesn't really matter how it's done but I think the A8 version is just poorley coded as there is no reason for it to be that slow. Colours, the A8 could do equivalent to the C64.

 

This thread all comes down to what are people actually comparing? Games, in which case yes C64 Chimera wins imho if only for the speed, the A8 one is toooo slow, or hardware which is a more subjective matter. I won't comment on other games like Milk Race as to which is better because I haven't played them. Sprites being a bit bigger and a few more colours doesn't make the "game" any better but shows the "hardware" is more capable. The only time those two become linked is when the game requires lots of sprites and colours.

 

 

Pete

[TMR]

It's not speculation as such on the C64 side since amongst other things the comment was based on my own need for it in the past for both demos and games and things like half FLI mode requiring it, there are hundreds of demos (as well as a few games, the MOOD previews for example) utilising that mode or variations on it. One of my early "still learning to code" colour splitting routines worked by pulling up a raster interrupt every other scanline to change the colours...

...

DLIs don't exist on C64 side.

 

i didn't say they did; you said "I don't think there are more cases where raster interrupts require splitting mode lines" (my emphasis) and, after quoting that, i listed examples of where raster interrupts are used to make changes at some point between the badlines (the C64's version of mode lines). As i said, the 4x4 pixel modes wouldn't move anywhere near the frame rate they go if it wasn't possible to split in arbitarily and i know that it's been used copiously for adding colours to character-based logos in the past.

 

You keep saying "for what they're meant" but surely the function is being defined by the form; they're only able to do that easily so most programmers don't buck the hardware's trend...

 

I defined it EXACTLY.

 

i wish you'd quote properly...

 

You didn't read what i said; i never questioned your definition and was instead pointing out that because there are limitations in place it's hardly surprising that just about every example stays within those limitations. Ironically, frenchman's flawed logic sort of applies here if you twist it a bit; just because A8 programs don't use splits halfway between mode lines, doesn't mean the programmers didn't want to. As i've said a few times now, i want to...

 

No, even in text-based 5-color graphics modes, you get to have a DLI every 8 or 16 scanlines.

 

Hang on... you mentioned using bitmapped modes to increase the flexibility of when a DLI can start and i said that you'd lose a colour doing that; there's not much point going back to talking about character modes when your reason for moving away from them was that lower resolution of DLI trigger points is there?

 

You are talking about special cases where you need more colors in-between one mode's scanlines not general cases.

 

Yes of course i'm talking special cases, we're considering flexibility here so it'd be ridiculous to not consider all possible situations; one system can handle the special cases all the time whilst the other can't; the trade off is a few more cycles of housekeeping, but since a DLI can only trigger on one eighth of the scanlines in a character-based screen and getting to any of the lines between mode lines will at the very least require handling of a second interrupt (more cycles than the raster's housekeeping) or a series of WSYNC commands (lots more cycles than the raster's housekeeping) to get to the right place, the more efficient of the two in seven eigths of those situations is the raster interrupt.

[analmux]

As you say, officially it doesn't so generally speaking we block copy and double buffer (although i'm going to do an Atarian thing here and say "but imagine what we could do with a RAM expansion!" =-). Unofficially, VSP delays the start of the badline and causes the screen to move right, as columns pass off the right hand border they reappear on the left one line down and the space before the VSP is "dead space". Line crunch/VSP combinations cause the screen memory to wrap around to the end of the last page it's using, so bitmaps are 8,192 bytes long and screen/colour RAM 1,024 bytes.

I always wondered, does f.e. Turrican II make use of VSP/linecrunch scrolling? Or is it really double buffered? VSP scrolling should also scroll the colourcell map if I'm correct.

[TMR]

I always wondered, does f.e. Turrican II make use of VSP/linecrunch scrolling? Or is it really double buffered?

 

Turrican 2 really is double buffered, yes.

 

VSP scrollers are rare (off the top of my head, Mayhem In Monsterland, Creatures, some of Creatures 2 and Phobia but there's at least one more i can't remember the name of right now) and line crunchers even more so, mostly the Cosmos Designs games like Fred's Back and some previews.

 

VSP scrolling should also scroll the colourcell map if I'm correct.

 

Yes, it essentially pushes everything across regardless of mode; for game use there's still some double buffering going on though, standard VSP has a travel distance of one screen width so after that it snaps back and the buffers swap.

[Allas]

 

C-64 stomps on Atari again, since it has music (by Rob Hubbard) and digitized voice (not such things on Atari), more colours on sreen and works much faster. Atari version is sloooooow. If you don't believe just check it

 

 

Chimera is not 100% an isometric 3D game on C64. The main character is a sprite.

 

I'd still class it as isometric though, the world is in the usual viewpoint, the player moves around it masking behind walls etc, doesn't really matter how it's done but I think the A8 version is just poorley coded as there is no reason for it to be that slow. Colours, the A8 could do equivalent to the C64.

 

This thread all comes down to what are people actually comparing? Games, in which case yes C64 Chimera wins imho if only for the speed, the A8 one is toooo slow, or hardware which is a more subjective matter. I won't comment on other games like Milk Race as to which is better because I haven't played them. Sprites being a bit bigger and a few more colours doesn't make the "game" any better but shows the "hardware" is more capable. The only time those two become linked is when the game requires lots of sprites and colours.

 

 

Pete

 

Yes, it's important. Because he claims c64 can do isometric games better than Atari. And that's false. Chimera isn't a real isometric game on C64 version. Maybe he could compare "Molecule Man", that's a real isometric game, and C64 version looks nice.

[José Pereira]

Rockford please stop sending all these screens.

 

I know what you're like!

You're like me in the eighties.

Just seeing all those magazines photos and so sad without A8 version of a game. Then, I started count no. of colours. On that time I only know about A8 graphic modes, nº of colours, DLis and PMs.

 

And you, you? I think you don't even know anything about C64 modes, sprites...

If you know anything you'll send screens of real games with many colours/sprites on screen (Armalyte,...)

You're only comparing Budget games. And you know why, because you only see that ones in A8(sadly to A8 users).

I could waste my time and show you that even that C64 versions were done by 2nd kind C64 programmers. If they were done by real C64 ones, you could show us something with more substance.

 

Like some people say sometime to me, first try to learn (And I sometimes I think they are not right, the way I feel or that I was just trying to help).

 

José Pereira.

 

(P.s: - By the way Chimera could have a Sprite (p.M.) on A8. PM0/1 Multicolour on one side and PM2/3 on the other side. We get 3 colours and Priority 2 (2PMs. above PFs and the other 2 under - I think this will work)

[PeteD]

But what do you call it if something that's doing everything an isometric game should runs on the C64? I don't see the method of drawing it as being important as long as things are seemingly Z (or X/Y) ordered when drawn on the screen. If the "player" goes behind the "world" masking properly as it does so then I wouldn't call that anything other than isometric. If you're going to split hairs over hardware sprites being used then you can't compare 100s of games because the Atari uses software sprites where the C64 uses hardware ones and that seems to be the whole point of the thread, which machine is more capable of producing games not how clever was the coder on one machine or another.

 

 

Pete

[The_Laird]

 

Amaurote C64:

top down view because C64 couldn't handle the isometric and totally unplayable. In Rockfords words: The disproportion in quality makes it so humiliating.... I think that words are needless here.

 

OK then, let's see if C-64 really cannot handle iso 3d games

 

5 - CHIMERA

 

C-64

C-64

C-64

 

C-64 stomps on Atari again, since it has music (by Rob Hubbard) and digitized voice (not such things on Atari), more colours on sreen and works much faster. Atari version is sloooooow. If you don't believe just check it

 

ATARI

ATARI

ATARI

 

That title/loading screen is clearly from the Spectrum version (spot the attribute clash if its not obvious enough already)

[atariksi]

It's not speculation as such on the C64 side since amongst other things the comment was based on my own need for it in the past for both demos and games and things like half FLI mode requiring it, there are hundreds of demos (as well as a few games, the MOOD previews for example) utilising that mode or variations on it. One of my early "still learning to code" colour splitting routines worked by pulling up a raster interrupt every other scanline to change the colours...

...

DLIs don't exist on C64 side.

 

i didn't say they did; you said "I don't think there are more cases where raster interrupts require splitting mode lines" (my emphasis) and, after quoting that, i listed examples of where raster interrupts are used to make changes at some point between the badlines (the C64's version of mode lines). As i said, the 4x4 pixel modes wouldn't move anywhere near the frame rate they go if it wasn't possible to split in arbitarily and i know that it's been used copiously for adding colours to character-based logos in the past.

...

You are talking about C64 text-based graphics modes. I was talking about Atari DLIs are more efficient than your raster IRQs and their general use is exactly what they are meant for. There's less use for mode-line splitting on Atari. Look at the thousands of examples in magazines and books and thousands of programs out there-- you can't tell me it's common to use them for mode-line splitting.

 

>You didn't read what i said; i never questioned your definition and was instead pointing out that because there are limitations in place it's hardly surprising that just about every example stays within those limitations. Ironically, frenchman's flawed logic sort of applies here if you twist it a bit; just because A8 programs don't use splits halfway between mode lines, doesn't mean the programmers didn't want to. As i've said a few times now, i want to...

 

That's NOT the point. In general (more common) use, that's where you want the item optimized for and NOT for special cases that YOU may need them for or a handful of applications. In general, count up all the cycles that are saved from having DLI optimized for what it is rather than writing scanline numbers into a register on every raster irq.

 

>>No, even in text-based 5-color graphics modes, you get to have a DLI every 8 or 16 scanlines.

 

>Hang on... you mentioned using bitmapped modes to increase the flexibility of when a DLI can start and i said that you'd lose a colour doing that; there's not much point going back to talking about character modes when your reason for moving away from them was that lower resolution of DLI trigger points is there?

 

No, my moving away wasn't because of the lower-resolution of the DLI in text modes. I am stating that if you have to use 5 colors, then you still don't have many uses where you need to split the 8-scanline modeline or 16-scanline modeline.

 

>You are talking about special cases where you need more colors in-between one mode's scanlines not general cases.

 

>Yes of course i'm talking special cases, we're considering flexibility here so it'd be ridiculous to not consider all possible situations; one system can handle the special cases all the time whilst the other can't; the trade off is a few more cycles of housekeeping, but since a DLI can only trigger on one eighth of the scanlines in a character-based screen and getting to any of the lines between mode lines will at the very least require handling of a second interrupt (more cycles than the raster's housekeeping) or a series of WSYNC commands (lots more cycles than the raster's housekeeping) to get to the right place, the more efficient of the two in seven eigths of those situations is the raster interrupt.

 

Not flexibility (although that's also there), but optimization. I was claiming DLI is more optimal and used in general for the purpose it's meant for. Flexibility is there in that IRQs are also present on Atari. It's not a few cycles if you have many DLIs and remember this is happening once per frame. So if you have a 100 DLIs at 13.125 cycles/DLI vs. raster IRQs at even a few more cycles-- you will be multiplying that number by 100 then by 50/60 (so factor of 5000/6000).

 

On the other point:

I also forgot to mention that when you do LMS, it doesn't affect the sprite data. When you switch banks past 16K, your sprites are screwed.

[atariksi]

But what do you call it if something that's doing everything an isometric game should runs on the C64? I don't see the method of drawing it as being important as long as things are seemingly Z (or X/Y) ordered when drawn on the screen. If the "player" goes behind the "world" masking properly as it does so then I wouldn't call that anything other than isometric. If you're going to split hairs over hardware sprites being used then you can't compare 100s of games because the Atari uses software sprites where the C64 uses hardware ones and that seems to be the whole point of the thread, which machine is more capable of producing games not how clever was the coder on one machine or another.

 

 

Pete

 

Well given the fact that there are games using the Atari hardware that are superior to C64 (and much harder to do on C64 if at all) would show that coder has a role to play as well as the underlying hardware.

[STE'86]

interesting theories here to define "isometric" games.

 

in the real world outside of this fantasy land forum u live in, ISOMETRIC is used to describe the way an object (in this case a game screen) is drawn using 30 degree, 60 degree horizontal and vertical lines. there is nothing in the definition to say that u cant use any or all hardware at your disposal to do this.

 

do u nutters actually think that if the spectrum had got hardware sprite capability that Ultimate would have forgone its use to do their iso games?

 

if u do actually think this u are in fact stark raving bloody mad.

 

Steve

[PeteD]

But what do you call it if something that's doing everything an isometric game should runs on the C64? I don't see the method of drawing it as being important as long as things are seemingly Z (or X/Y) ordered when drawn on the screen. If the "player" goes behind the "world" masking properly as it does so then I wouldn't call that anything other than isometric. If you're going to split hairs over hardware sprites being used then you can't compare 100s of games because the Atari uses software sprites where the C64 uses hardware ones and that seems to be the whole point of the thread, which machine is more capable of producing games not how clever was the coder on one machine or another.

 

 

Pete

 

Well given the fact that there are games using the Atari hardware that are superior to C64 (and much harder to do on C64 if at all) would show that coder has a role to play as well as the underlying hardware.

 

Of course, and that's the whole point of what I keep saying. A lot of Atari games are inferior not because the hardware is so bad but because for "some" reason the coder didn't push it to do what it can but it's that very lack of polish on the Atari that proves to an extent that the hardware isn't as capable. It doesn't mean things are impossible just not as easy but if I was chosing a machine to work on or play games on I'd go for the one that is producing the higher quantity of better games.

 

 

Pete

Edited September 4, 2009 by PeteD

[popmilo]

where do u keep pulling these comparison games from? "totally shit games 'r' us?"

 

either of those invasion games look like the game has crashed on screen and corrupted the graphics.

 

Steve

 

 

Great isn't it, Mastertronic, UKs top selling software house during the 80s/early90s.

 

 

Yes mate, i have heard of them vaguely . 25 years ago i was a c64 graphic designer the first time around.

 

i just dont remember them being that crap.

 

Steve

I can remember few very good games from them:

 

- Pinball Power

- Scumball

- Dan Dare III

- Curse of Sherwood

- Diplomacy !!!

- Supremacy !!!

- Double Dragon II

- Flash Gordon

- Gemini Wing

- Iron Man

...

And many more...

Kane, Kane 2, Kickstart 1 and 2,Kobayashi Naru, Ninja, Ninja warriors,Sidewinder II, Spellbound ....

 

Shame is that most of these never had their A8 versions...

[TMR]

There's less use for mode-line splitting on Atari. Look at the thousands of examples in magazines and books and thousands of programs out there-- you can't tell me it's common to use them for mode-line splitting.

 

Now y'see... at this point i think we're talking at cross purposes; i'm talking about changing something like a playfield colour halfway down a character line, nothing more complex than that - and since graphics artists sometimes supply stuff without checking what can and can't be done and graphics are converted from other machines that can perform arbitary colour splits, it happens pretty often in the real world.

 

That's NOT the point. In general (more common) use, that's where you want the item optimized for and NOT for special cases that YOU may need them for or a handful of applications.

 

Yeah, because i'm the only programmer ever who wanted to do this...

[PeteD]

DLIs are good for what they are and as Atariksi keeps stating they're slightly faster than raster interrupts but I would never swap rasters for DLIs in a million years if I had the choice, there are plenty of cases where I'd want an interrupt to occur not on a modeline boundary and considering the 1st game I'm attempting to write on the A8 needs it I don't think it's that uncommon.

 

Here are a few situations where a raster interrupt would be more desirable. My exploding fist port, DLIs won't do what I want, plain and simple and this is my first A8 project.

 

A PMG multiplexer, if you're going to run that from DLIs then surely you're limited to where you can do the X pos and/or colour changes to every 8 lines so you need to keep your "sprites" 8 lines away from each other to avoid glitches, then what happens if the screen is scrolling vertically?.

 

Not sure on this one because I haven't looked at it yet but I'd presume a vertically scrolling game with a panel at the top/bottom would want some kind of static colour or mode change line to mask the characters coming onto/going off the play area.

 

Rasters are so much more flexible than DLIs for not much more overhead. Maybe it's just us C64 coders are spoiled and Atari coders have got used to not having the felxibility at their fingertips and therefore design their games based on the DLIs postition possibilities. That doesn't mean DLIs are better, just what you're stuck with and slightly faster if you stick to their limited usages.

 

 

Pete

Edited September 4, 2009 by PeteD

[dwhyte]

 

Maybe it's just us C64 coders are spoiled and Atari coders have got used to not having the felxibility at their fingertips and therefore design their games based on the DLIs postition possibilities. That doesn't mean DLIs are better, just what you're stuck with and slightly faster if you stick to their limited usages.

 

 

Pete

 

Spoiled? Or could it be that you're attempting to use raster thinking with DLI's? As I suspect is the case...

Edited September 5, 2009 by dwhyte

[PeteD]

 

Maybe it's just us C64 coders are spoiled and Atari coders have got used to not having the felxibility at their fingertips and therefore design their games based on the DLIs postition possibilities. That doesn't mean DLIs are better, just what you're stuck with and slightly faster if you stick to their limited usages.

 

 

Pete

 

Spoiled? Or could it be that you're attempting to use raster thinking with DLI's? As I suspect is the case...

 

ahaa, mind readers on the forum now What I'm thinking is that I want to change the X position, colour, size of PMGs on lines I want, not where the Atari hardware decides to let me. If you can tell me a better way of doing it than a raster irq the please do, I've had to resort to a timer interrupt which means possibly causing problems for the pokey. It's natural as far as I'm concerned on a raster based display to be able to intercept the cpu on any of those raster lines, if it wasn't a sensible thing to want why does the C64 and so much other hardware have that capability? The atari doesn't even have the ability to wait for a line accurately because it only has an 8 bit register for the scanline count.

 

 

Pete

[Rockford]

...

C-64 on the top again. The disproportion in quality makes it so humiliating.... I think that words are needless here.

...

"humiliating" is really not needed there...

If you want people to take you seriouslly stay away from such phrases...

 

English is a beautiful language, there are so many more words you could use...

 

p.s. Never seen that game, really does look better on C64...

 

Popmilo, your posts and words are rational and reasonable to me, so all I can say you are right here. Probably I have gone too far with teasing and I am sorry for that. Anyway, soon I am going to prove that C-64 can handle iso 3D games better than Atari

 

Your reasoning was already refuted and rather than reply to that you go on with your same reasoning. You have NOT proven Atari is inferior with examples that show off wider sprites or color RAM of 40*25 of 16 colors force fitted to every object on earth. You need to find some other hardware aspect to show what C64 hardware can do. What goes into building a particular game is not necessarily what the hardware matches up with. You neither stick to original topic nor the general topic of "Atari vs. Commodore."

 

Funny, I don't remember you saying anything like that when Allas was doing exactly the same thing. Maybe because he was showing (example after example) games that look better on Atari ? You know, it is called a double morality

 

First of all, I don't think you even understood what I wrote above (re-read). Secondly, Allas has a right to do that in this topic as per original poster's request. Thirdly, I am arguing against the conclusions that you are drawing from your examples. Fourthly, ... I'll stop for now until you get the first three statements.

 

I understood you perfectly. You would like me to stop posting, since you don't like what you see. Anyway, if you are tough enough please scroll down, I am showing the other type of game that can be better on C64, even though a lot of atarians have said otherwise

 

You can speculate what you like. I stick by what I stated:

 

Your reasoning was already refuted and rather than reply to that you go on with your same reasoning. You have NOT proven Atari is inferior with examples that show off wider sprites or color RAM of 40*25 of 16 colors force fitted to every object on earth. You need to find some other hardware aspect to show what C64 hardware can do. What goes into building a particular game is not necessarily what the hardware matches up with. You neither stick to original topic nor the general topic of "Atari vs. Commodore."

 

Learn some English. You can't draw your conclusion of a machine's inferiority even if you put a million examples of wider sprites or restricted 40*25 color RAM pictures.

 

I'm sorry to say that atariksi, but I rank you among "special atarians from this forum" who are moaning about anything and everything ("ban him !!!","make him stop posting !!!", "you shouldn't and couldn't do this and that because of this and that !!!" etc). Sadly, if you lose an argument or you are presented with facts you don't like, the personal attacks start flying ("learn some English" etc). I hope someday you will realize how pathetic it is