when did shmups get so difficult?

[xg4bx]

i picked up raiden 4 today and its brutally difficult. maybe my memory is a bit fuzzy (or i suck at games now) but i remember shmups as being merely challenging, not these insanely difficult "bullet hells".

 

have they always been this hard or was there a turning point in the genre fairly recently?

[Reaperman]

i picked up raiden 4 today and its brutally difficult. maybe my memory is a bit fuzzy (or i suck at games now) but i remember shmups as being merely challenging, not these insanely difficult "bullet hells".

 

have they always been this hard or was there a turning point in the genre fairly recently?

I'd say the turning point was in the late 90's. Right around 1998/99. On the shooter timeline, I'd say it's about Gigawing-ish.

Oh, there were enough tough games before, but the genre as a whole was considerably more forgiving right up until then. The majority of games weren't impossible from the start.

 

Problem is the shooter fanbase shrank, and those who were left--the sickly devoted fans--wanted brutally hard games. Then once they started making them tougher, any 'middle of the road' gamers who were left jumped ship. and now there's been 10 years of that...

 

I think 1998's blazing star is about the most shooter my brain can process.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Reaperman

[andym00]

i picked up raiden 4 today and its brutally difficult. maybe my memory is a bit fuzzy (or i suck at games now) but i remember shmups as being merely challenging, not these insanely difficult "bullet hells".

 

have they always been this hard or was there a turning point in the genre fairly recently?

 

Raiden 4 actually looks quite tame and fairly conventional I think of the Danmaku genre as being slightly different than your conventional schmup.. The good shooters like GigaWing, DangunFeveron, DoDonPachi, Gunwange are kind of more like puzzle games, working out the right path through the bullets whilst trying to keep your chain going (if the games has a chain that is) and maximising your score.. For example in DDP it's not just about annihiliating everything that arrives, but timing it just right so your chain stays alive, which means holding back on your destruction of the enemy sometimes.. They're about achieving perfection through the scoring mechanism, which adds another element to the gameplay that's (to quote Dangun) "Maximum Fever!" They are also pretty forgiving at heart what with the size of the collision detection with the player, more often than not just the single pixel at the centre of the players ship..

Now this is a proper shooter

[atarian63]

i picked up raiden 4 today and its brutally difficult. maybe my memory is a bit fuzzy (or i suck at games now) but i remember shmups as being merely challenging, not these insanely difficult "bullet hells".

 

have they always been this hard or was there a turning point in the genre fairly recently?

 

Raiden 4 actually looks quite tame and fairly conventional I think of the Danmaku genre as being slightly different than your conventional schmup.. The good shooters like GigaWing, DangunFeveron, DoDonPachi, Gunwange are kind of more like puzzle games, working out the right path through the bullets whilst trying to keep your chain going (if the games has a chain that is) and maximising your score.. For example in DDP it's not just about annihiliating everything that arrives, but timing it just right so your chain stays alive, which means holding back on your destruction of the enemy sometimes.. They're about achieving perfection through the scoring mechanism, which adds another element to the gameplay that's (to quote Dangun) "Maximum Fever!" They are also pretty forgiving at heart what with the size of the collision detection with the player, more often than not just the single pixel at the centre of the players ship..

Now this is a proper shooter

puzzle shooters.. those really suck. I used to like shooters,I wondered what the heck had changed,thanks for pointing it out.

[Tempest]

Shooters have always been difficult, you just don't remember. Try going back and playing Gradius III sometime and I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised at your level of suckiness at it.

 

If you want a brutally hard shooter, try the Rayxanber series. Dear lord!

 

Tempest

[MagitekAngel]

I've been playing Ageis Wing, and damn, is it hard.

But then I went back for some R-Type, and understood that things have never changed.

Edited September 11, 2009 by MagitekAngel

[godslabrat]

I'd say the turning point was in the late 90's. Right around 1998/99. On the shooter timeline, I'd say it's about Gigawing-ish.

Oh, there were enough tough games before, but the genre as a whole was considerably more forgiving right up until then. The majority of games weren't impossible from the start.

 

Problem is the shooter fanbase shrank, and those who were left--the sickly devoted fans--wanted brutally hard games. Then once they started making them tougher, any 'middle of the road' gamers who were left jumped ship. and now there's been 10 years of that...

 

Pretty much the same process, and time frame, that killed one-on-one fighters. Right around the time of MK3/KI combos and fight strategies stopped being cool tricks and started being the rules of the game. If you weren't ready to memorize a 30-button pattern, you wouldn't last even one fight. Like someone else said about these "puzzle shooters," you have to be crazy to even try. It's a shame, both genres had so much left to offer and develop.

 

I wonder if this is happening across the board... since gaming is getting bigger, are we seeing more of a strict divide into "Games that a cocker spaniel could beat" and "Games that cannot be played without Sith powers"? And fewer games that have a truly fair and balanced challenge level?

 

Aside: I haven't read a game mag in years. Do they still even rate games on "Challenge level" like they often did in the 80s, where a low star was either too easy or too hard, and five stars was "just right"?

[Lord Thag]

Yeah, I get sick of all the gimmick shooters nowadays. I much prefer the 'blast everything in sight' type games like Image Fight, Raiden and Gradius to stuff like Ikaruga, where you have uber-short levels and it's all bout scoring gimmicks.

 

That said, I don't think the games have gotten any harder. Anyone remember playing Image Fight or Hellfire? Yeah. They were really hard back in the day too

[shadow460]

Raiden got tough with the second installment. Well, actually, the player could make it tough with the Raiden Project in 1995. Serious, put it on the General level and it will make you feel like a n00b. Sometimes I struggle to complete the first level. When I get on a good roll, though, sometimes I can make it past the third level.

 

I also play Raiden III at max difficulty. When I'm feeling masochistic I load Sirius into an emulator and play that.

 

the one thing, though, with any SHMUP is that you need a good joystick. Any of those that are good for fighting games will work well. I never touch Raiden or any other SHMUP without a stick.

 

Oh, yeah, want a good and tough SHMUP from back in the day? Let's try one from 1990. Get Burai Fighter for the NES and set it to Ace or Ultimate levels. You will learn the meaning of "respawn" and "continue". I actually have a copy of the Japanese Burai Fighter Deluxe for the classic Game Boy. It is not an easy game by any means...but it sure is fun!

Edited September 14, 2009 by shadow460

[otaku]

thanks for reminding me to pick this up! I actually enjoy these games in a sick way I like the abuse hehe

[ManShowBoy]

They have to be difficult so you don't beat the game in 15mins. If any question about schmups should be asked, it's why don't schmups have more levels?