Rotary Controllers

[Tyrant]

Hey guys, I've been hovering about a bit, and wondered if there would be any interest in another (fairly small) batch of Rotary Controllers. I'm running low on supplies (mostly mint controllers), so this would likely be the last batch I'd ever make.

 

Would there be any demand though?

[ovalbugmann]

I saw your name and the thread title and put the two together - I have heard of Tyrant Rotarys before!!

 

YES! Sure!, I would for sure buy one of your rotary controllers to use with Tempest 2000.

 

Any pictures you can show of what one looks like previously? I will try to find one if not.

 

Oh, and I am sure BuddyBuddies will want one too.

 

Put me down for one!!

 

Thanks!

Edited September 13, 2009 by ovalbugmann

[Tyrant]

Cool. I'm not actually goina take any pre-orders or waiting lists or anything like that, I've never been fond of those kinda things. This thread is just to generally sound out how much demand is likely to be if and when I have some available.

 

As for pictures, sure. I'm currently testing the ones I've got here (for use at JagFest if there are enough spare tv's), so I snapped a couple of pics for you.

[ovalbugmann]

Thanks for the pictures. I think that there may be a decent demand for this, so I hope you can make enough of them so that I and others can hopefully get one if they desire to.

 

I'll be looking forward to this.

[BuddyBuddies]

I saw your name and the thread title and put the two together - I have heard of Tyrant Rotarys before!!

 

YES! Sure!, I would for sure buy one of your rotary controllers to use with Tempest 2000.

 

Any pictures you can show of what one looks like previously? I will try to find one if not.

 

Oh, and I am sure BuddyBuddies will want one too.

 

Put me down for one!!

 

Thanks!

I just got a Tyrant a few weeks ago, it looks identical to the nob that Jonathan Ashcough uses,are they the same person? Ive got Jonathan Aschough pro-controller rotary but need a regular one still i think.

[Atari Smeghead]

I had a Tyrant rotary several years back (2003, 2004 area) but sold it. Oh yes, I remember now... Jonathan Ascough bought it from me off eBay, then used that to make and sell his own.

 

I can attest to Tyrant's quality. It was a well-made rotary. However, I sold it because it just wasn't what I wanted for Tempest. I wanted something free-spinning 360 degrees, like the Tempest controller. Also, I found I would spin it too quickly and overwhelm the sensor. Oh, and I would've preferred a rotary with the knob on the right, to feel more like the 2600 paddle. I grew up with the joystick, so my right hand is the controller hand, left hand is the button hand. Y'know? That's why I've always wanted a JediJeff controller, but man are those rare!

 

That said, I really should get one for the collection. What price are you thinking, Tyrant?

 

Thanks for making the offer!

 

Cheers,

Smeg

[BuddyBuddies]

I had a Tyrant rotary several years back (2003, 2004 area) but sold it. Oh yes, I remember now... Jonathan Ascough bought it from me off eBay, then used that to make and sell his own.

 

I can attest to Tyrant's quality. It was a well-made rotary. However, I sold it because it just wasn't what I wanted for Tempest. I wanted something free-spinning 360 degrees, like the Tempest controller. Also, I found I would spin it too quickly and overwhelm the sensor. Oh, and I would've preferred a rotary with the knob on the right, to feel more like the 2600 paddle. I grew up with the joystick, so my right hand is the controller hand, left hand is the button hand. Y'know? That's why I've always wanted a JediJeff controller, but man are those rare!

 

That said, I really should get one for the collection. What price are you thinking, Tyrant?

 

Thanks for making the offer!

 

Cheers,

Smeg

turn the controller upside down and that puts the nob on the right. My favorite is the Chaos Reins, they sell for like $63 on ebay iirc. The Jedi Jeffs are prefered by alot of people, but like you said there are hard as hell to find, ive got only 1!lol. The Aschough and Tyrantsa are both clicking i believe. The Chaos Reins is free spinning. Tyrant controllers are very nice though

[im_reg]

I'd be up for one please.

[+save2600]

How much are these? I've got a controller or two that could stand to be modded. May we send our

old controllers in to have this done as an alternative to purchasing a new one? If so, how much would

that option be? Shoot, I just noticed you're in the U.K. Shipping to and fro would negate any savings.

So what are these going to run outright then?

Edited September 13, 2009 by save2600

[Tyrant]

Thanks for the show of interest. I'll definitely go ahead and make as many as I can find parts for. As for prices, what I did in the past was put them up on ebay starting at zero and let demand set the price automatically. It always seemed more fair (as if there is ever a fair way to distribute things when demand outstrips suply) to sell them by auction rather than have waiting lists or "the first ten replies get one" topics. Then again having said that, they consistently sold for £45 to £55 ($75 to $90, although the exchange rate was better then), and when I sold them directly (at JagFest for example) I set the price to £50.

 

Jonathan Ascough bought it from me off eBay, then used that to make and sell his own.

 

Yep, his were pretty much exact clones of mine. Except that he then went on to make some out of pro controllers, but didn't realise that a) Tempest doesn't benefit from the extra buttons, and b) when you cut circuit traces you need to patch them properly. I forget exactly what he did strangely, but it involved short circuiting some of the buttons together in a way that could have been easily avoided with a few diodes in the right places.

[ovalbugmann]

Bummer, So your going to ebay them , well that could be good(if there is not a lot of demand) or potentially bad for us(competeing with Jaguar horders/ebay flippers). I was hoping & thought we would be dealing directly with you, paying you in advance a reasonable set price.

 

The problem with ebay is the specualtors/flippers such as the dreaded: Sweetstuff4U jerk who will be bidding on these, most likely all of them even if he has already won a few from you, he will resell them the next day/week on ebay -you watch. He will also bid up the ones he doesn't win to make his ones that he wins from you more attractive at the, for sure, higher price he will flip them for in his store or auction on ebay.

 

I can see prices now going over $130.00 for a Tyrant rotary. We will all be competeing against each other and I know many people have deeper pockets than me and will also want more than one(for two player Tempest) and can pay for it with this opportunity- leaving me and others with not so deep pockets out of the bidding WAR.

 

If you must, and are determined to ebay all of them then, please do something like 10- identical auctions at once rather than one auction at a time to prevent the hawks from muscling around the smaller birds because of their money - since we will not know how many are left that will go on the auction block.

[Atari Smeghead]

turn the controller upside down and that puts the nob on the right. The Jedi Jeffs are prefered by alot of people, but like you said there are hard as hell to find, ive got only 1!lol. The Aschough and Tyrantsa are both clicking i believe. The Chaos Reins is free spinning. Tyrant controllers are very nice though

You may laugh Buddy, but I actually tried that... it didn't work well.

 

ChoasReins is free spinning, you say? I hadn't heard that before. I assumed all the Jag-controller-modded rotaries were the same in that regard. Interesting. Thanks for letting me know!

 

Is the JediJeff controller free spinning as well? I've only seen a couple of pictures; certainly never seen one in real life.

 

At this point, I'm relegated to using a modded 2600 driving controller as my Tempest rotary. It's not bad... a bit slow and only having one button certainly changes the dynamic of the game. I really should get me a real rotary.

 

Cheers,

Smeg

[jonathan ascough]

Thanks for the show of interest. I'll definitely go ahead and make as many as I can find parts for. As for prices, what I did in the past was put them up on ebay starting at zero and let demand set the price automatically. It always seemed more fair (as if there is ever a fair way to distribute things when demand outstrips suply) to sell them by auction rather than have waiting lists or "the first ten replies get one" topics. Then again having said that, they consistently sold for £45 to £55 ($75 to $90, although the exchange rate was better then), and when I sold them directly (at JagFest for example) I set the price to £50.

 

Jonathan Ascough bought it from me off eBay, then used that to make and sell his own.

 

Yep, his were pretty much exact clones of mine. Except that he then went on to make some out of pro controllers, but didn't realise that a) Tempest doesn't benefit from the extra buttons, and b) when you cut circuit traces you need to patch them properly. I forget exactly what he did strangely, but it involved short circuiting some of the buttons together in a way that could have been easily avoided with a few diodes in the right places.

 

Sigh I thought this was all cleared up years ago! For the record smeg head I bought tyrants rotary controller of you AFTER I started selling mine. You have been spreading this lie on both this site and JS11 for years now and I would politely ask you to stop and get your facts straight.

For the record the two controllers mine and tyrants are different as we use different controllers. His are normal ones that have black rubber key pads and the serial number on the reverse of the controller start with a B. mine are grey rubber controllers (again standard) that have the serial number that start with a G, (this is the only difference from the outside that you can see). The internals if the controllers is very different and the solutions that myself and Tyrant made in order to make a rotary are different (hence not a cloned product).

I bought that controller of you as I was interested in seeing how Tyrant made a rotary using a B type and whilst I now know how to make one have not done so as I gave my word to Tyrant 6 years ago now on this site and have been true to it to this day.

As for my pro rotary controlers nothing was ever short circuited I dont know where that came from? the reason I made them was a) they are more comfortable to use than a standard controler b) the x,y,z buttons are used in the game (change the viewing angle of the web) same as pressing 1,2 or 3 on the keypad but easyier to get to. c) It was something a bit different. d) no one had ever made one before and I developed the two controllers at the same time INDEPENDANTLY.

Finaly Tyrant I wish you well for the future and hope you do make another batch as it is giving something to the atari community and gives people a choice between yours and mine. Sorry if this goes on a bit but it is very upsetting to be accused of cloning someone elses work when nothing is further from the truth and certain individuals perpetuate this myth for years, I am certain many of you would feel the same as I if you were accused of something that simply was not true!

Hope this clears everything up and just to remember tyrants controllers have black keypads and mine grey, both are great and were made independantly of each other.

[Atari Smeghead]

Sigh I thought this was all cleared up years ago! For the record smeg head I bought tyrants rotary controller of you AFTER I started selling mine. You have been spreading this lie on both this site and JS11 for years now and I would politely ask you to stop and get your facts straight.

I apologize, Jonathan. I don't recall ever reading your side of the story. It was an assumption I made due to the perceived timeline (you bought from me, your controllers showed up) but as you say, clearly I am mistaken and I will stop "spreading this lie" from this point forward, now that I know the facts.

 

Cheers,

Smeg

[Tyrant]

The internals if the controllers is very different and the solutions that myself and Tyrant made in order to make a rotary are different (hence not a cloned product).

I bought that controller of you as I was interested in seeing how Tyrant made a rotary using a B type and whilst I now know how to make one have not done so as I gave my word to Tyrant 6 years ago now on this site and have been true to it to this day.

I've never looked inside one of the G series (gray rubber) pads, I would have assumed the plastics and boards are identical, but having just now opened one up I see they are quite radically different. I don't remember you giving me your word not to make them out of B series pads, but that would help to make a clear distinction for the future as to who made which ones (since all of mine have, as you said, been black rubber ones).

 

As for my pro rotary controlers nothing was ever short circuited I dont know where that came from?

I forget the specifics, but I remember someone mentioned that when they pushed one button, several others also acted as if they were pushed. I had a quick look at the upper pcb of the pro controller and spotted some diodes near to the d-pad that would cause that effect if you had cut them off and not replaced them. At least that's how I remember it, but I've just had a search through AA's epic back-history of posts and can't find the thread, so like I said all I've got is my rather vague and degraded memory.

 

Finaly Tyrant I wish you well for the future and hope you do make another batch as it is giving something to the atari community and gives people a choice between yours and mine. Sorry if this goes on a bit but it is very upsetting to be accused of cloning someone elses work when nothing is further from the truth and certain individuals perpetuate this myth for years

Yep, I can agree totally, having ones honesty brought into question is a horrible thing, especially when done so in public. For the record I feel no hostility towards you at all, I accept that you developed your version in parallel (although the timing makes it look otherwise), and when I said "cloned" I only meant that the components you used are (as far as I know) identical to the ones I used, as well as the design being the same (I didn't remember the gray vs black thing). I hope no offense was caused.

[SwinginDick]

Duuuuudes,

 

Here we all are - the Three Amigos of the T2K spinners! Very cool. It's nice to finally chat with the two of you after all these years.

 

My story (not that anyone asked!):

 

I just wanted to tell you both (Jon and Tyrant) that you guys were a big influence in my decision to make and sell my spinners. I've sold about 135 of them so far (since 2005) and the response from my customers has been fantastic. Tyrant - you were the original inspiration; I saw a photo of your original modded controller somewhere and thought "Cool! Hey, I could do that!". Then I saw Jon selling his on eBay and (since they were coming from UK) were quite pricey. I thought "How hard could it be? I've designed hi-end audio gear with shaft encoders, and Minter pretty much describes what needs to be done in various articles, so what the heck?!" I bought a Jaggy and some parts and just sort of did it. After making a couple for myself, I figured there had to be a market for these things, so I located a steady supply of parts and went for it.

 

Some thoughts on the thread (and your "spat", Tyrant and Jon):

 

• 
  * The whole "G" vs. "B"-series controllers argument as a "differentiator" is silly. I've modified and sold tons of both types. Yes, the internal construction is different, but we all know the electrical modification is the same (at least if you do it right! ). Sure, the mechanical mods are different due to the extra plastic frame piece in the "B"-series controller, as well as the odd internal case shape, but these are details, folks - nothing a drill press and file can't fix. At the end of the day there is no difference to our end customers worth discussing, certainly nothing worth paying extra for. Personally, I prefer the "G"-series controllers because the internal construction is simpler, but no one besides the three of us cares!
  * Who got there first? C'mon, does it really matter? All props to you both. As Michael Palin so adroitly said "This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about 'oo killed 'oo". Guys - here we all are, the only three that have successfully built and sold these things. Certainly a small club and a good thing, no?!? Really, it isn't that hard to figure out what to do, once you read the interviews with Minter. I freely admit that I am the follower here, but my customers really don't seem to care about that when they get the controllers and kick huge T2K ass.
  * Tyrant - go for it! You should jump back in with both feet. I've had a number of sales worldwide, and in the UK in particular, so the demand is there. However, the shipping out of the US to Asia and Europe is really high. It would actually be great to have you making these things there as the shipping should be substantially less for our mutual customers outside the US.
  * I've used eBay Fixed Price listings for the bulk of my sales and it works well enough. eBay fees are highway robbery, but there isn't much else you can do. The same for PayPal - ridiculous fees, but no other viable alternative. I've also secured "distribution" with Dan Loosen at the GOAT store (www.goatstore.com) - he was buying lots of 10 controllers from me at a "wholesale" price and selling them at whatever price he felt was fair. That also worked well, so you may want to think about that avenue. It certainly makes it easier for you as a producer as you don't have to worry about order fulfillment, which can be a nuisance.
  *You guys want to talk about real innovation? We should be thinking about the following list of projects:
   
  
  • 
     
    * A spinner for use with B2K (exclusively or combined with T2K)
    * A spinner for Nuon/T3K
    * A spinner for T2K that won't actually commandeer the D-pad so that the controller can be used for other games
    

I have some ideas for the first two, but not the time. How about you guys?

 

So, that was my two cents, sure to anger someone I suppose, but that was not my intent. I'm actually really happy to have the chance to give something back to the Jag community, even if I wasn't the first one to the table.

Edited September 23, 2009 by SwinginDick

[BuddyBuddies]

@SwingingDick- * A spinner for T2K that won't actually commandeer the D-pad so that the controller can be used for other games

 

There has been a modded controller with a vcs paddle on the back of a standard Jaguar controller with a switch to switch between the driving wheel and the d-pad. You made the Chaos Reins rotaries correct?

 

I know many people like the Jedi Jeff rotary , which is hard as hell to locate and carries a premium when found. It is unlike the rest cause its not made from the Jaguar controller shell. My favorite personally is the Chaos Reins,but all of them are nicely built and do the job.

 

A B2K rotary would be AWESOME! JAGUAR RULES!

[Tyrant]

Duuuuudes,

 

Here we all are - the Three Amigos of the T2K spinners! Very cool. It's nice to finally chat with the two of you after all these years.

Indeed, here we are .

 

I just wanted to tell you both (Jon and Tyrant) that you guys were a big influence in my decision to make and sell my spinners.

...

I thought "How hard could it be?

As a friend of mine once put it: Aspire to Inspire before you Expire.

 

How hard? not very, as long as you can brace things so the pause button still works.

 

Some thoughts on the thread (and your "spat", Tyrant and Jon):

It's not really a spat, I was a little upset many years ago, since Jon released his first one about a week after buying one of mine, but everything was explained and resolved loooong ago, there's no ill feelings on my part.

 

* The whole "G" vs. "B"-series controllers argument

...

Personally, I prefer the "G"-series controllers because the internal construction is simpler, but no one besides the three of us cares!

True 'dat.

 

* Who got there first? C'mon, does it really matter? All props to you both.

Guys - here we all are, the only three that have successfully built and sold these things.

Not quite. There's also JediJeff, who made and sold them before the dawn of time itself.

 

* Tyrant - go for it! You should jump back in with both feet. I've had a number of sales worldwide, and in the UK in particular, so the demand is there.

...

eBay fees are highway robbery, but there isn't much else you can do. The same for PayPal - ridiculous fees, but no other viable alternative.

I've got three ready to sell, and I'll put them up on ebay sometime in the next few days (and of course let the forums all know).

 

I've also secured "distribution" with Dan Loosen at the GOAT store

I used to sell some to Nick Harlow of 16/32 Systems under a similar arrangement.

 

*You guys want to talk about real innovation? We should be thinking about the following list of projects:

 

• 
  * A spinner for use with B2K (exclusively or combined with T2K)
  * A spinner for Nuon/T3K
  * A spinner for T2K that won't actually commandeer the D-pad so that the controller can be used for other games
  

I have some ideas for the first two, but not the time. How about you guys?

I've actually got an idea I'm planning out for a new controller, but I won't talk about it until I've actually got at least a prototype ready.

 

B2k can't support anything other than a D-pad, can it?

Since Curt just released the B2k source code however, it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to adapt it to use ordinary rotaries, and even auto-detect them, the way T2k would if we were following the techref doc (note: anyone attempting this, throw away the rotary description in techref, it's idiotic and nobody ever followed it)

 

T3k would be cool with a rotary, but a) I don't think he included code for them, and b) where on earth would you find nuon-compatible plugs? let alone the custom chips used to encode the data to the appropriate serial stream. I suppose the protocol could be reverse engineered and the chips replaced with off the shelf parts, but the plugs alone would make such a project a nightmare.

 

So, that was my two cents, sure to anger someone I suppose

Really? pah! not me, I think its great to finally hear from you. I was mostly out of the scene when you got started making yours, but it's good to finally have this little "chat". I wish you luck with yours, and any future projects.

 

Where the ancient kings are buried

New kings will rise and stand

And so the torch is always carried

Passed from hand to hand.

[Zerosquare]

* A spinner for T2K that won't actually commandeer the D-pad so that the controller can be used for other games

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/94279-optical-rotary-controller-project-completed/page__st__25__p__1811573entry1811573

 

let alone the custom chips used to encode the data to the appropriate serial stream. I suppose the protocol could be reverse engineered

I vaguely recall that the Nuon controllers are supposed to be standard USB controllers, only with a different connector. Doesn't solve the other problems, though.

[Tyrant]

* A spinner for T2K that won't actually commandeer the D-pad so that the controller can be used for other games

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/94279-optical-rotary-controller-project-completed/page__st__25__p__1811573entry1811573

Interesting, added a reply in that thread.

 

let alone the custom chips used to encode the data to the appropriate serial stream. I suppose the protocol could be reverse engineered

I vaguely recall that the Nuon controllers are supposed to be standard USB controllers, only with a different connector. Doesn't solve the other problems, though.

Now that is interesting... very interesting. If that's true it would open up quite a few possibilities.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Tyrant

[jonathan ascough]

Duuuuudes,

 

Here we all are - the Three Amigos of the T2K spinners! Very cool. It's nice to finally chat with the two of you after all these years.

Indeed, here we are .

 

Yep all here- the three Amigos i like that

Atari smeg head appology excepted

no hard feelings from my end and wish you well with your controllers I will stick with the g type so people can tell mine apart from tyrants.

I was once working on a new controller but have scraped the idea but this is what I had in mind. I was going to make an arcade stick based around a pro controller which also had a rotary function and jag link facilty as well all in one unit. I am a kitchen designer by trade and the top of the arcade stick was going to be made from a polished granite/corean or similar product. I had called the project the LAPCAT and even went as far as getting the art detail for the box it was going to be in (I have friends in both marketing and printing to help produce the boxes). Well that was what I had in mind maybe it will come to light again one day who knows or may be some one else can take the idea and move it forward.

[Zerosquare]

Regarding building a rotary controller for the Nuon : apparently an analog controller exists, and Tempest 3000 supports it. But I don't know if you're supposed to rotate the analog stick or if it's just the standard left/right control scheme.

 

It seems that both the hardware and Tempest 3000 support a real rotary controller too, but details are missing.

 

Additionally, I was wrong : the Nuon controllers are not USB-based.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Zerosquare

[Tyrant]

Regarding building a rotary controller for the Nuon : apparently an analog controller exists, and Tempest 3000 supports it. But I don't know if you're supposed to rotate the analog stick or if it's just the standard left/right control scheme.

All nuon controllers (bar one) have analog, and it is just left-right variable speed. It's fairly handy, but still not as cool as a rotary. Also unfortunately the Logitech controllers lag REALLY badly with their analog sticks, so its often better to use the digital pad.

 

It seems that both the hardware and Tempest 3000 support a real rotary controller too, but details are missing.

Now that is awesome news.

 

Additionally, I was wrong : the Nuon controllers are not USB-based.

I thought it was too good to be true. Still, some of the JagWare lot are pretty handy when it comes to reverse engineering electronics and signals, right? Perhaps a project someone over there might be interested in? The issue of the plug can always be worked out somehow...

 

A plug solution:

Take one normal nuon controller. Cut off the plug and a short length of cable. Attach a common plug and line socket (4 pin mini-din maybe?) to the cut ends of the cable. Thus they can still plug into each other to function as before, and the adaptor can also plug into any newly made/converted controllers.

[+Stephen Moss]

A plug solution:

Take one normal nuon controller. Cut off the plug and a short length of cable. Attach a common plug and line socket (4 pin mini-din maybe?) to the cut ends of the cable. Thus they can still plug into each other to function as before, and the adaptor can also plug into any newly made/converted controllers.

A lot of people do not like the idea of hacking up their controller as I found out whith my first attempt at a PS Controller to Jag interface, if I could see a picture of the connector I might be able to identify it.

[Tyrant]

A lot of people do not like the idea of hacking up their controller as I found out whith my first attempt at a PS Controller to Jag interface, if I could see a picture of the connector I might be able to identify it.

 

I took a few pics for you, it's not easy to get my cameraphone to focus given the tiny size of it, but I did the best I could. Its very similar in construction to micro-usb, except smaller, and where micro-usb has slightly raised contacts, the nuons seem to be slightly recessed.