How long do you think a machine will last?

[Kurisu]

Alright: We all know the first 2600 units were released to stores in October, 1977. That was 32 years ago, and we know that many units from 78, and I would believe a good few from 77 are still in perfect working order.

 

The question up for discussion is, do you think they will last another 30? Do you think in 2040 we will still be able to bring out a 2600 and, presuming we can still some way hook the thing to a TV from that time period, actually play?

 

Will the materials that make up the system survive? Will carts begin to all suffer age-based bit rot?

 

Presumably, units could be stored in special enviroments for archival, but that in our case defeats the purpose of the collection, now doesn't it? I would think everyone has to wonder, just what will happen.

 

I can imagine a world where one late night, we see one of those filler news reports where they go "back in time" 50 years or some crazy thing like that, and talk about the VCS, and talk about how it "started the video game industry" or some buzz phrase of the like, and then show someone, probably one of us, showing one of the last working units in the world. One of those geek-apocalyptic situations, but a possible one nontheless.

 

in 2077, when these things are by definition Antiques.. will any be left? Hmn...

[Kernal]

Yeah, I have bad dreams about my 8-bits not working any more.

I think its a subject alot of people don't like to talk about.

Prehaps we should pool together as a community and prehaps seek out contracts to build new machines or prehaps figure out some way to time proof the ataris, now that technology has gotten better prehaps air tightcases with a cooling system?

 

 

a vaccum seal would stop any air corrosion issues..

the trick is keeping the components working if u use it actively for say 25 years

my atari 800xl from 1983 still works. thats 27 years... whats 27 more years to a circuit board not directly exposed to sunlight

 

I predict that yellowing problem alot of people are seeing is a forbearnce of whats to come.. maybe a new production of cases may be needed

 

I mean we have already lost the printers.. and a good bit of drives in 30 years.. my disk drives still work though.

[ovalbugmann]

Generally, Integrated Circuits, or ICs that are of course the heart of Atari consoles and cartridges are supposed to be rated functional for 100 years or more before internal "diffusion" of the metal leads & metal ions composing the microscopic traces naturally meld the whole chip into a block of silicon and non-working metals.

 

So by that main component rating we have another 68+ years of real Atari to play! I certainly don't like emulation on the PC. The other components like electrolytic capacitors which could burst or leak or actually become in-operative by not having electricity applied to them for long periods of time(it's an electrically built internal field necessary for operation) can be replaced along with most other non IC components on the board. Controllers can be rebuilt, wires replaced, transistors replaced etc. Everything except the propriatory ICs (6507, TIA, Cart ROM chips). Of course if you have a CuttleCart, Krokocart, or Harmony + ROM images that takes care of one kind of chip to go bad.

 

All the plastic will still be solid in hundreds of years to come. So you can probably boot up your Atari VCS in 2075 and play games really frickin' old ass skool!

 

Don't forget; no ICs have been around yet for 100 years so the life expectancy of them is a scientific calculation of MTBF (mean time before failure) but we really don't know until the first ICs(1960s -i think) reach that age.

 

Hey, Thomas Edisons' original light bulbs are still working and how long ago was that!

[ovalbugmann]

Here is another thread about keeping our systems alive for the long haul:

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/122841-keeping-our-systems-alive-for-the-long-haulentry1505927

Edited November 6, 2009 by ovalbugmann

[Silvio Mogno]

All the plastic will still be solid in hundreds of years to come. So you can probably boot up your Atari VCS in 2075 and play games really frickin' old ass skool!

 

Will 2075's TV sets be compatible with the old fashioned VCS TV signal? We should also save some old CRT televisors (it could be harder to do )...

[homerwannabee]

How bout 2060? Thats the day that Sir Isaac Newton predicted that the world would end.

[+save2600]

I'm not worried about I.C's failing all by themselves. The true cog in this though are capacitors. They are the most mechanical component in a circuit and are prone to failure. 10-20 years is all most are rated for. When they go, they can take out I.C's - especially tantalum caps. But electrolytics are the ones that dry up and can cause all sorts of problems too. Luckily, the voltage scenario in a 2600/7800 are rather low - but the Atari (or any other system such as Intellivision) systems that regulate & rectify voltage inside of their cases, I'd be more worried about.

 

Preventative maintenance such as replacing caps in a power supply would go a long way to preserving these machines.

Edited November 6, 2009 by save2600

[Frostbite Bailey]

Mines gonna last til I'm then it won't really matter

[segasaturn]

I never actually thought of that before.........the day it happens, by definition; it will be called "D-DAY"

[AtariLeaf]

Yeah, I have bad dreams about my 8-bits not working any more.

I think its a subject alot of people don't like to talk about.

Prehaps we should pool together as a community and prehaps seek out contracts to build new machines or prehaps figure out some way to time proof the ataris, now that technology has gotten better prehaps air tightcases with a cooling system?

 

 

a vaccum seal would stop any air corrosion issues..

the trick is keeping the components working if u use it actively for say 25 years

my atari 800xl from 1983 still works. thats 27 years... whats 27 more years to a circuit board not directly exposed to sunlight

 

I predict that yellowing problem alot of people are seeing is a forbearnce of whats to come.. maybe a new production of cases may be needed

 

I mean we have already lost the printers.. and a good bit of drives in 30 years.. my disk drives still work though.

 

Exactly. I wish people would stop bringing the damn thing up.

[Gregory DG]

According to the movie WALL-E, the Atari will last at LEAST 700 more years...

[aftermac]

According to the movie WALL-E, the Atari will last at LEAST 700 more years...

 

Yeah, and by then the Earth will be destroyed. Good times.

[RevEng]

I wish people would stop bringing the damn thing up.

 

Why bury your head in the sand? Something can be done about it in most cases.

 

In the case of the 2600, the only parts that can't be easily replaced is the 6507 processor and the TIA. Creating functional replacements using microcontrollers or FPGAs wouldn't be a colossal task. I believe there are already open 6502 FPGA cores available.

 

If it's really a huge worry, see what you can do to jumpstart the Stellacon/Open 2600 project.

 

Also, get yourself a regulated power supply if you want to be kind to those capacitors. The less ripple they see, the longer they'll last.

 

In the case of the a8 computers, get yourself some SIO2SDs or SIO2PCs. IMO an SIO2SD is a reasonable tradeoff that will allow your "drive" to last hundreds of years.

[AtariLeaf]

I wish people would stop bringing the damn thing up.

 

Why bury your head in the sand? Something can be done about it in most cases.

 

In the case of the 2600, the only parts that can't be easily replaced is the 6507 processor and the TIA. Creating functional replacements using microcontrollers or FPGAs wouldn't be a colossal task. I believe there are already open 6502 FPGA cores available.

 

If it's really a huge worry, see what you can do to jumpstart the Stellacon/Open 2600 project.

 

Also, get yourself a regulated power supply if you want to be kind to those capacitors. The less ripple they see, the longer they'll last.

 

In the case of the a8 computers, get yourself some SIO2SDs or SIO2PCs. IMO an SIO2SD is a reasonable tradeoff that will allow your "drive" to last hundreds of years.

 

Please elaborate. Are you saying the stock atari power supplies are damaging the systems? What would be a good replacement power supply and are they readily available in your local walmart/kmart/zellers or electronics store?

[seanhq]

I would also be interested in a recommendation for a regulated power supply to use on Atari 2600's.

[kool kitty89]

Generally, Integrated Circuits, or ICs that are of course the heart of Atari consoles and cartridges are supposed to be rated functional for 100 years or more before internal "diffusion" of the metal leads & metal ions composing the microscopic traces naturally meld the whole chip into a block of silicon and non-working metals.

 

All the plastic will still be solid in hundreds of years to come. So you can probably boot up your Atari VCS in 2075 and play games really frickin' old ass skool!

 

Don't forget; no ICs have been around yet for 100 years so the life expectancy of them is a scientific calculation of MTBF (mean time before failure) but we really don't know until the first ICs(1960s -i think) reach that age.

 

Most old cart-based systems will probably outlast the majority of more recent disc based ones, and any repairs that are necessary would likely be a good deal simpler.

 

So by that main component rating we have another 68+ years of real Atari to play! I certainly don't like emulation on the PC. The other components like electrolytic capacitors which could burst or leak or actually become in-operative by not having electricity applied to them for long periods of time(it's an electrically built internal field necessary for operation) can be replaced along with most other non IC components on the board. Controllers can be rebuilt, wires replaced, transistors replaced etc. Everything except the propriatory ICs (6507, TIA, Cart ROM chips). Of course if you have a CuttleCart, Krokocart, or Harmony + ROM images that takes care of one kind of chip to go bad.

 

Unfortunately the main chips and a couple cart ROMs areexactly what got burned out on one of my 2600s... It happened ~2002 iirc (I was ~13), we'd been using a riadioshack universal power supply for quite a while, but then this one time, we powered it on and it just stopped working. Shortly after my uncle found my grandparents 1977 model with joysticks and paddles, a few games, and power supply (and with a co-ax connector my grandpa had spliced onto the rnd of the RF cable). With that unit working I discovered both the combat and circius atari carts I had were dead, and the 1977 power brick wouldn't work with my VCS (a light sixer, hong kong model with moderately different internals btw). So we opened our VCS up and it looked to have the voltage regulator burned out, so we picked up a replacement at radioshack, soldered it in, and still nothing.

Then my dad and I went all at it and removed the board and took off the rf sheilding to find that a chunk of the chip packaging on one of them (either RIOT or TIA, it wasn't the smaller 6507) had literaly blown off (little disc-shaped chunk, ~1/8"), at this point we decided to swap out components from the heavy sixer to at least see if the board was still good, so we just swapped out the chips (all socketed conveniently) and it worked fine, and for some reason we ended up leaving it like that, with the chips in the light-sixer and an empty '77 unit. (more recently I noticed BW/color is stuck on color only, otherwise it's fine, but I think I'll finally be swapping the chips back to my grandpa's '77 unit, maybe swap the RF cables, though I kind of like having the coax on there and it doesn't seem to add any video noise)

 

So anyway, it seems like the polarity probably got switched to the wrong setting on that universal power supply, that'll do it. (at the time I thought it might have been from running it at 7.5v instead of 9 -we weren't sure until we got the '77 supply so we used the lowest working voltage, but I realized that really shouldn't have done anything, particularly with 7.5v being in the tolerable range for these systems -as long as the voltage regs can take it and output 5v, it's fine, I seem to recall people using 12v supplies w/out trouble -probably with more thermal dissipation from the voltage regulator, but I did notice the color go off down at 6v, so probably too low there)

Edited November 6, 2009 by kool kitty89

[RevEng]

Please elaborate. Are you saying the stock atari power supplies are damaging the systems? What would be a good replacement power supply and are they readily available in your local walmart/kmart/zellers or electronics store?

Damaging is a pretty harsh word. The caps are smoothing our ripples in the cheapo power supply, just as they're designed to do. If you reduce the amount of work they do, then you'll reduce the inevitable wear and tear on the dielectric.

 

Unfortunately I don't have a good suggestion on where you'd get one with the right voltage and plug, ready to use with your VCS. I'd personally just adapt a spare one from a spare laptop or later generation console. (eg. gamecube, wii, xbox360). If anyone goes this route, just avoid small cellphone chargers; yes they're regulated, but they tend to have bad ripple at the switching frequency.

[ovalbugmann]

A regulated power supply is one that, that maintains a constant output voltage under changing load conditions.

 

A regulated power supply or stabilized power supply is one that includes circuitry to tightly control the output voltage and/or current to a specific value. The specific value is closely maintained despite variations in the load presented to the power supply's output, or any reasonable voltage variation at the power supply's input.

 

I wonder if there is just a general one that I can plug into the wall to supply 120v AC, but regulated, for steady power that I can then plug my original 1977 Atari PS into to still be able to use the original PS?

Edited November 6, 2009 by ovalbugmann

[ovalbugmann]

2600

Input: 120VAC 60Hz

Output: 9VDC 500mA

Polarity: Center +, Outer -

 

Well I found one that might work this one is only 450mA (need 500mA 9v dc) but it has multiple tips like the VCS male plug.

 

Bottom of the page:

 

http://www.minute-man.com/acatalog/6VDC_to_9VDC_Voltage_Adpaters.html

Edited November 6, 2009 by ovalbugmann

[phuzzed]

I guess this is something I have really never never given much thought to.

 

Transistors, Microprocessors, ROM chips, and custom IC's, I pretty much tagged as having an infinite life span. I mean, the circuitry is etched permanently. "bit rot", occurs with things like EPROMS after several years. Since most cartridges were made with masked ROMS, I would say our games are going to be around for a very long time. Well past the 100 year mark.

[seanhq]

Just a small heads up for people wanting a nice energy efficient power adapter for your Atari 2600... Radio Shack part # 273-355. You will also need the Adaptaplug F adapter Radio Shack part 273-339 which is a positive polarity tip. You get the Adaptaplug F adapter free when you buy the AC adapter in-store. It has the letter F on it. This setup will run you $20.00 USD, maybe a little pricey, but it will give you the proper power and last a long time.

Edited November 7, 2009 by seanhq

[Kurisu]

I know this is not something people want to talk about, but I am a person who thinks like this, and wondered what a direct, honest discussion on this would bring about. No one likes to talk about death, even in a mechanical sense, but facing it head-on could help some of us.

 

Many of you were kids when the VCS was released, and grew up during its life, but to me, it is something else.

 

I was born in January 85: the same year the NES came about. When I was about 4 my family got me one, and of course it became to me the "basic" video game. I know my mom had a 2600, but from what I know "it broke when I was little" and got stashed away somwhere, still unseen (one of my earliest memories is of the unit setting somewhere in our old house, but I have no context to go along with the memory).

 

So, I suddenly get into collecting machines and games, and playing them, and it hits me: This machine, and nearly all these games, are older than me.

 

For example, all 6 of my VCS consoles are older than me: the most recent model I own is a Vader from I think 83: its 2 years older than me. For my entirer life, all 6 of these units have been out somwhere, in someones hands, being played or at least stored. Everything I have ever done, these machines have existed, and done there thing. It's crazy to really think about sometimes, and just amazes me.

 

So, then, what about my children in the future? or their children? I am sure we all agree that future generations should get to experience the real thing for as long as they can; which of course makes me wonder how long we all think a machine will actually survive.

 

Seems like everyone thinks the same way I do: Capacitors are the most vulnerable component, the carts should stay around forever, and as long as voltages stay nominal, the IC's should stay fine until they actually, for lack of a better term, (eventually) disintegrate.

 

Then we must wonder: is it better to play it, or not to play it? Will the occasional play session keep the components "stable" without wasting too much of their life? Should they be stored away? I own a unit that was stored away about 20 years ago that works fine, so seems like 2 decades was ok, at least this time. Or, should we just fire away daily, and if one dies, it at least died doing what it was built to do?

 

I apologize if this subject really has upset or annoyed anyone, but as I said, this is just how I am, and how I think. I love knowing what people think about something.

[shadow460]

Like any other console, the mechanical stuff wears out first. An original Heavy Sixer has what, seven moving parts? Six switches and an automatic dust cover, and that's it.

 

IMO, those mechanical parts are long past their expected lifetimes. Every VCS unit I've had has needed the big metal switches cleaned out. (hey, Ax, I didn't clean out the difficulty switches on that vader...missed that... ) Aside from that, you're going to have wear from the units being flexed a bit as its moved or games are changed. Solder joints are going to crack, and crud will build up in the unit. Also, those units with factory defects will probably need attention sooner than those without.

Then you also have the controller ports, which could get damaged while changing from paddles to joysticks to the Booster Grip, etc.

 

All that said, when I got my Heavy Sixer, it worked but not real well. The left port didn't work and it would not read paddle controllers. It looks flawless like the day it came from Sears, but time just is not kind to these things. I reflowed all three circuit board in there and cleaned out all the switches. I repaired the left port, and I said to heck with the dust guard, which is still stuck open today. The cartridge port was supposed to have failed 31 years ago, but I am still waiting.

 

IMO, the Heavy Sixer is like an old Ford truck. The body will fall off before the engine ever quits. Ditto with the Atari. Your TV will rot into dust long before the 2600 ever gives up.

[kool kitty89]

IMO, the Heavy Sixer is like an old Ford truck. The body will fall off before the engine ever quits. Ditto with the Atari. Your TV will rot into dust long before the 2600 ever gives up.

 

Heh, funny you should mention that, I've got a mid/late '60s PortaColor (it's the first model case from 1966, not sure when they discontiunued that) that I find kind of a charm coupled with my VCS. Needs a fair bit more maintence, at leat in theory. (I've only ever replaced 1 tube though, and as long as there's a niche market for those it shouldn't be too bad) I think it's rather fitting, both the PortaColor and VCS having rather astounding product lifespans (both ~14 years, with PortaColors still in production 3 years after the VCS was released).

That said the power/volume switch broke a couple years back and I haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. (in part because I'm not sure of a replacement switch I should use, but mostly because that part of the TV is so much of a hastle to work on whithot damaging the mounting brackets for the switch plate) That power switch has been something that's been flaky since my mom bouht the refurbished TV back in the early/mid 80s. (and finally shorted out 6-7 years ago, would probably have fixed it by now, but it's not a huge priority, but certainly not planning on getting rid of it)

Edited November 7, 2009 by kool kitty89

[RevEng]

Then we must wonder: is it better to play it, or not to play it? Will the occasional play session keep the components "stable" without wasting too much of their life? Should they be stored away? I own a unit that was stored away about 20 years ago that works fine, so seems like 2 decades was ok, at least this time. Or, should we just fire away daily, and if one dies, it at least died doing what it was built to do?

 

I apologize if this subject really has upset or annoyed anyone, but as I said, this is just how I am, and how I think. I love knowing what people think about something.

I don't think you need to apologize. It's an interesting topic, and if someone is upset over the discussion they should just hit the back button on their browser.

 

If you're intent on timecapsuling a 2600 for generations, you might look into a few things...

1. Replace the electrolytic caps with polymer caps.
   
2. Place it in a vacuum bag.
   
3. Store it at a very cold, but not freezing, temperature.
   
4. Never use it.
   
5. Do the above with a second or third unit for donor parts.
   

 

But I personally wouldn't do it. I'll replace the caps in my 2600 when the time comes, and enjoy it with my kids in the now.