Harmony Cart Interference

[+Philsan]

Monk, we were talking about logic but now I really don't see any logic!

Your 2600 jr. outputs a beautiful image in your mom's house but, if it's an outside interference problem, why her Darth Vader has the same problem?

[zagon]

I see the same interference as you. I've checked your videos.

 

Moving the RF-cable does not generate new interference, It changes the intensity of it.

The interference dots goes from very noticeable to acceptable

depending on how I close to the cart I arrange the RF-cable.

 

I think that all carts radiate RF-interference to some level. Simple carts very little,

the Harmony cart seems to radiate some more.

 

For this radiation to be visible on screen then one or more links in the signal chain must

be picking it up. In my setup the RF-cable itself seems to be link that is most sensitive

to RF-radiation by far.

[Monk]

Monk, we were talking about logic but now I really don't see any logic!

Your 2600 jr. outputs a beautiful image in your mom's house but, if it's an outside interference problem, why her Darth Vader has the same problem?

 

Exactly!

 

I don't have ANY idea anymore.. I am totally lost. My brain and me cannot together come up with ONE SINGLE PLAUSIBLE THEORY of how, why, and what causes it and .. agh. It's right now in the category of 'unsolved mysteries', perhaps 'unsolvable mysteries'..

 

I have never encountered anything like this before in my life; usually there has been SOME logic to any, even the most weird problem (I do have some similar though which I still haven't found an answer to, though - but they are not that serious so it doesn't matter) ..

 

This is just .. I can't answer those questions anymore. Not even theoretically, it doesn't make ANY friggin' sense whatsoever, no matter what perspective you look at it from!

 

In my place the Atari 2600jr PAL produces again very powerful interference, that is heavily disturbing when playing a game. In my mom's place, I could very easily forget that there ever were any disturbance when playing any game.. I should test with Galaxians though, I think that's one of those games (or was it Galaga? I get those mixed up) that shows so much interference where should be just plain black, that it'd be most easy to see the interference.

 

A funny observation about the interference in that Galaxian/Galaga game; the interference actually obeys the pattern of the enemies! I mean, it's hard to explain, but if there is four rows of enemies, it displays four rows of interference, until I shoot the LAST enemy on that row - then it disappears from that row, but not before I shoot every single one of them (I mean, shooting just one or two doesn't affect at all - and it's still there in that row until I shoot every single enemy)

 

This repeats in all rows.

 

I wish I could at least come up with a THEORY of how this interference-phenomenon/anomaly could be created, what could be causing it, and how to test it if it could be removed somehow. My only hope now is just to keep testing with different Ataries, if it means buying one new Atari every month..

 

- Monk

[Monk]

I see the same interference as you. I've checked your videos.

 

Moving the RF-cable does not generate new interference, It changes the intensity of it.

The interference dots goes from very noticeable to acceptable

depending on how I close to the cart I arrange the RF-cable.

 

I think that all carts radiate RF-interference to some level. Simple carts very little,

the Harmony cart seems to radiate some more.

 

For this radiation to be visible on screen then one or more links in the signal chain must

be picking it up. In my setup the RF-cable itself seems to be link that is most sensitive

to RF-radiation by far.

 

Holy F*ck!

 

You are actually right - there's a considerable difference whether the cable is very tangled or very clear!

 

Though, in most illogical way, I think;

 

I have this white, shielded cable. I entangled it very well to see if it would produce more interference. I got to a point where the interference practically DISAPPEARED! I actually said 'holy f*ck' out loud out of astonishment!

 

I am now too tired to take pics or video, but I hope to conduct more tests tomorrow and then show the results for you all.

 

The trouble with the white cable is that it's meant for VCR's and such, and thus doesn't have the computer-and-console-like LONG plug in the other end, so it doesn't stay very well in the Atari, and it slips a bit off, which causes the interference to come back and intensify. But if I hold it in place with my hand, I can practically see NO interference!

 

The WEIRD part is, that if I try the same with an old, black RF cable, the interference INTENSIFIES into something TOTALLY AWFULLY HORRIBLE ALL OVER THE SCREEN SO POWERFULLY I NEVER SAW IT LIKE THAT BEFORE!

 

So, with shielded cable, knotted as heck seems to somehow intensify and clear the signal;

 

With an unshielded cable knotting it seems to just intensify the interference and make the signal worse!

 

What a weird problem, what a weird solution.. I guess I have to somehow use duct tape or something with that white RF cable to keep it in place, hehe..

 

In any case, this brings new hope, thanks, mate, mr. Zagon!

 

Philsan, please try this also - try with different cables, knotting them and unknotting them - I also separated very strictly the power cable from the RF cable so there's no chance of them being entangled together. - and then try to hold a shielded cable in place after you have knotted it nicely.. heh.. weird, but it seems to work. Now I only have to hire someone to hold it in place or come up with some kind of macgyver-solution to it (-8

 

Thanks a bunch again, mr. Zagon, this is actually very exciting!

 

Hope to give more news the next day..

 

- Monk

[+Philsan]

Monk, you are asking me to test my consoles with the white coaxial cable used to connect TV's to antenna wall plug or VCRs, right?

I have many of them so tomorrow I will do it using my 2600 jr. (Darth Vader and 4-switch don't have a plug).

[Thomas Jentzsch]

The trouble with the white cable is that it's meant for VCR's and such, and thus doesn't have the computer-and-console-like LONG plug in the other end, so it doesn't stay very well in the Atari, and it slips a bit off, which causes the interference to come back and intensify. But if I hold it in place with my hand, I can practically see NO interference!

Completely understandable. Like I said above, the shielding needs grounding. When the cable slips "a bit off", the shielding of the cable looses connection with the grounding. Which means the shielding is much weaker.

 

The WEIRD part is, that if I try the same with an old, black RF cable, the interference INTENSIFIES into something TOTALLY AWFULLY HORRIBLE ALL OVER THE SCREEN SO POWERFULLY I NEVER SAW IT LIKE THAT BEFORE!

Probably that cable has no adequate shielding or the shielding is broken internally.

 

So, with shielded cable, knotted as heck seems to somehow intensify and clear the signal;

 

With an unshielded cable knotting it seems to just intensify the interference and make the signal worse!

 

What a weird problem, what a weird solution..

The solution is not weird at all. Bad shielding = high interference, good shielding = low interference.

[accousticguitar]

What a weird problem, what a weird solution.. I guess I have to somehow use duct tape or something with that white RF cable to keep it in place, hehe..

The handyman's secret weapon.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Monk, you are asking me to test my consoles with the white coaxial cable used to connect TV's to antenna wall plug or VCRs, right?

I have many of them so tomorrow I will do it using my 2600 jr. (Darth Vader and 4-switch don't have a plug).

What kind of cable have you been using until now? Don't tell me it isn't meant for TV signals.

 

I looked back at the picture of the RF cable you posted. This really doesn't look like a good coaxial cable should look like. The cable is much too thin to have a good shielding.

 

Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable

Edited January 18, 2010 by Thomas Jentzsch

[+Philsan]

Thomas, I use the RF cables attached to 4-switch and Darth Vader consoles and RF cable included in 2600 jr. box.

I have many PAL computer/consoles and those cablse are identical.

Being included in the packages, I hope they are meant for TV signals!

But I agree that those cables are thiner than other coaxial cables found in VCRs.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Being included in the packages, I hope they are meant for TV signals!

Those are about as meant for TV signals as the ear-phones usually added to MP3 players are meant for listening to quality music.

 

But I agree that those cables are thiner than other coaxial cables found in VCRs.

Try to get one of those. I am pretty sure your problems will go away.

[Monk]

Monk, you are asking me to test my consoles with the white coaxial cable used to connect TV's to antenna wall plug or VCRs, right?

I have many of them so tomorrow I will do it using my 2600 jr. (Darth Vader and 4-switch don't have a plug).

 

Well, I only know it's called RF cable. But any cable that fits between the Atari and TV and produces a picture and sound will do, I presume, hehe.

 

Yes, I know those older Ataris don't have a separate cable, but instead an inbuilt one. Perhaps you can somehow knot those wires a bit as well though - I don't have a Darth Vader model here right now so I can't test this yet.

 

Another weird phenomenon I noticed is that I have to HOLD the cable with my hand strictly in place for the interference to be at minimum (it almost completely disappears, which I never really expected) - if I move my hand away from the cable, the interference comes back and intensifies immediately.

 

It's a bit impractical solution; I mean, how am I supposed to play if my other hand has to be touching and pressing the cable the whole time? I really should get the cable I used in my mom's place and do some tests with that.. but it's gonna be a few days until I can do that.

 

I hope to get some video taken today about some of this new revalation so you can all see that it does clear the interference a lot..

 

Oh, and use Galaxian and Pitfall! as the control games - those two are the best ones to test it, I think.

 

- Monk

[accousticguitar]

Another weird phenomenon I noticed is that I have to HOLD the cable with my hand strictly in place for the interference to be at minimum (it almost completely disappears, which I never really expected) - if I move my hand away from the cable, the interference comes back and intensifies immediately.

 

It's a bit impractical solution; I mean, how am I supposed to play if my other hand has to be touching and pressing the cable the whole time?

Try wrapping it around your ankle.

[Monk]

Completely understandable. Like I said above, the shielding needs grounding. When the cable slips "a bit off", the shielding of the cable looses connection with the grounding. Which means the shielding is much weaker.

 

I don't know what grounding is. But it isn't enough that I keep it in place, I have noticed (I just did some more testing).

 

I have to hold it with my hand in a very specific way (and I don't know how, I just toy around until I find it, and sometimes it's a really awckward hand position) - just holding it tight in place doesn't remove the interference or even diminish it. I have to push a bit to the right, and then lift the cable and the cable kinda perhaps has to be in a loop under my hand and my hand has to be lifted off the table a bit and .. argh. It's very difficult to determine how to do it properly, and I can't ever get as good pic quality with duct tape - I need my hand (uh, don't think anything pervertic now (: )

 

How does the hand improve the shielding?

 

Probably that cable has no adequate shielding or the shielding is broken internally.

 

Yes, the black cable is not shielded, it's an old cable. Or at least it's not shielded by any modern standards. But it does produce such a clear and interference-free picture from the Commodore 64..

 

The solution is not weird at all. Bad shielding = high interference, good shielding = low interference.

 

Of course, but I was referring to the knotting. I don't know if it's the knotting after all, perhaps it's more the hand. Though I couldn't get a 'best possible so far' picture without knotting the cable, but this might be just a coincidence.

 

- Monk

[Monk]

What kind of cable have you been using until now? Don't tell me it isn't meant for TV signals.

 

I looked back at the picture of the RF cable you posted. This really doesn't look like a good coaxial cable should look like. The cable is much too thin to have a good shielding.

 

Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable

 

I checked that, but that didn't show very compatible-looking plugs about it.

 

If I buy some coaxial cable, how can I get compatible plugs so it fits both into the Atari and into the Television? (I think our plugs here in europe are different than the american ones)

 

The picture of the RF cable Philsan posted is the kind that actually has long enough plug that it STAYS in a computer/console. The shielded, white cables usually don't stay because their plug is not long enough. I mean, they are compatible with C64 and so, but with Atari it slips off and so I rather use those black cables that can be made sure they will stay..

 

But all this testing puts all of this into a new light - so if I can figure out which kind of cable to buy, I would go buying new cable today so I could test this.

 

This could explain a lot; I mean, in USA I think it's very common to have those kind of weird-lookin' coaxial cables connected between the Atari and the TV .. but here, I don't think it's that common a solution. (your TV's have such odd plugs in the back)

 

I do have some old coaxial cable that I could perhaps try.. the only problem is, it's like 12 meters long or so - well not sure, I only know it's so frigging long that it's a pain to try to untangle and put to use, but I definite want to try it..

 

Thank you for all your input, this all gives new perspectives and new hope to this..

 

- Monk

[Monk]

Try wrapping it around your ankle.

 

Yes, I was thinking something like that, more like my wrists or my neck - but first of all the cable moves too much that way (slips off), or even with the duct tape, it's not enough for me to just TOUCH the cable, it has to be touched in a CERTAIN, very -specific- way with the hand..

 

So I better just look into some other cables and try to figure this out somehow. Stupid Atari designers, making their consoles demand a weird usage of hand from the user!

 

- Monk

[Monk]

[quote name='Thomas Jentzsch' date='Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:16 AM' timestamp='1263856572' )

 

But I agree that those cables are thiner than other coaxial cables found in VCRs.

Try to get one of those. I am pretty sure your problems will go away.

 

The white cable I have _IS_ one of those cables, but the problem with those is that they slip off, as they don't have long enough protuberance in the middle, etc.. the plug on the Atari end is wrong, you see. It works, but it slips off and it doesn't hold in place..

 

And as I said, even holding it in place is not enough, you have to have your hand involved in odd positions for it to work, and you can never know what kind of position it has to be until you experiment a long time and suddenly by accident get it right.. then you freeze and the pic stays clear, but if you move just a little bit, everything goes back to the interference city again..

 

- Monk

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I don't know what grounding is. But it isn't enough that I keep it in place, I have noticed (I just did some more testing).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounding

 

How does the hand improve the shielding?

It works like a (bad) grounding replacement.

 

Yes, the black cable is not shielded, it's an old cable. Or at least it's not shielded by any modern standards. But it does produce such a clear and interference-free picture from the Commodore 64..

As you found out yourself, some devices (e.g. carts) produced more interference than others. The C64 is probably internally shielded very good, so that its interference signals are not leaving the case.

 

You have to get a good, shielded(!) and fitting RF cable, that's all.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

The white cable I have _IS_ one of those cables, but the problem with those is that they slip off, as they don't have long enough protuberance in the middle, etc.. the plug on the Atari end is wrong, you see. It works, but it slips off and it doesn't hold in place..

And then it looses its grounding and the shielding is gone. You need a matching plug correctly attached to the cable.

 

Everything is 100% clear now.

[accousticguitar]

At least you know what the problem is now. Once the problem is found, a solution will follow.

[Monk]

[quote name='Thomas Jentzsch' date='Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:47 AM' timestamp='1263883642'

You have to get a good, shielded(!) and fitting RF cable, that's all.

 

Yeaah.. that would be logical, wouldn't it?

 

I got a 18 EUR cable which includes a COAXIAL cable with RCA plug adapters for the television on the other end and another for the Atari on the other end.

 

IT DOESN'T HELP! Well, it helps a LITTLE bit, but it doesn't remove the interference OR even diminish it to a tolerable level. I can get it to almost as small as I did previously (though not quite) by holding the cable in my hand. But I can't play games that way!

 

Sigh. I just wish there were a simple solution that would fix it all, but there isn't.. I could of course try buying some very new RF cable, but they don't sell those with RCA plugs anymore, so I don't know what to do.. there aren't converters probably for converting RF->RCA.

 

- Monk

[Monk]

The white cable I have _IS_ one of those cables, but the problem with those is that they slip off, as they don't have long enough protuberance in the middle, etc.. the plug on the Atari end is wrong, you see. It works, but it slips off and it doesn't hold in place..

And then it looses its grounding and the shielding is gone. You need a matching plug correctly attached to the cable.

 

Everything is 100% clear now.

 

No, it isn't. Everything is still very interferenced and annoying. With the coaxial cable and the RCA adapters for it.

 

- Monk

[Monk]

At least you know what the problem is now. Once the problem is found, a solution will follow.

 

Actually, I don't know what the problem is. It clearly isn't the cable. That is pretty obvious by now. It clearly isn't the Atari, as the same Atari can be very clear or very interferenced, depending on location. It clearly isn't location, as otherwise all Ataris would behave the same in a certain location, but they don't. It clearly isn't Harmony Cart, as other cartridges exhibit the exact same behaviour. It isn't the TV, it isn't the PSU for similar reasons..

 

- Monk

[Monk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grounding

 

How does the hand improve the shielding?

It works like a (bad) grounding replacement.

 

Well, how could I get a good one? The hand is the best feature I've seen so far.. I mean, nothing else has ever produced as clear picture as of yet.

 

Besides, I think you must understand about electricity and electromechanics to read that wikipedia article.. I tried to read it but I really didn't understand much of it. So if a hand can be grounding, could I replace the hand with something? That'd be the ideal solution.

 

-- NEWS UPDATE! --

 

I tried the coaxial cable (with the RCA adapters) with the NTSC-Atari 2600jr, and that actually diminishes the interference to a tolerable level!

 

So if I can only get an NTSC supporting television, I cease to have a problem anymore..

 

Thank you all for your support and suggestions, and sharing of information and tips!

 

Sincerely,

 

- Monk

 

- Monk

Edited January 19, 2010 by Monk

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Actually, I don't know what the problem is. It clearly isn't the cable. That is pretty obvious by now.

No, it clearly IS the cable or the plugs of the cable.

 

RF cables are a bit sensitive. The plugs have to be mounted correctly and also the plugs have to fit well into the device, else the shielding will not work well. Also I have seen devices and plugs with the center signal pins shortened to the other grounding connector, which will have the same bad results.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

So if a hand can be grounding, could I replace the hand with something? That'd be the ideal solution.

Don't worry, either the TV and/or the console works as grounding replacement. IF the cable is attached correctly that is.