ctirad Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 (edited) ctirad: it will never map its memory - also - any PBI device won't work The RAM 320XL is an PBI device, so there is not a problem. The VBXE is, though. How about the other mode, where the onboard 64kB is leaved instact and the EXTSEL is swhitched LOW only when the external 256kB is mapped? Edited April 23, 2010 by ctirad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 PBI device is something that has registers on D1xx page, is turned on by write of specific value to D1FF and has some onboard ROM with device handler Your extension just occoupies PBI slot in the other mode VBXE will map on certain address space - in general extended memory should be switched off before enabling VBXE memory window could you describe fully modes of operation and Your device registers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctirad Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 PBI device is something that has registers on D1xx page, is turned on by write of specific value to D1FF and has some onboard ROM with device handler Your extension just occoupies PBI slot Ok, is there anyone who use such PBI device in his XL, except for 1064, which is fully replaced by RAM 320XL? could you describe fully modes of operation and Your device registers? It mirrors PORTB/$D301 in CPLD (in fact only used bits 23456 are mirrored to save the pins). It uses standard 16kB banking via bits 2356 and 4th bit for select. The RAM uses the 512kB SRAM chip, which capacity is only partially used here. There are two modes of operation switchable via jumper: 1. standard 256+64kB expansion. In this mode, the external RAM is activated only when map is set via bit 4 AND the CASINH is HIGH. In the same time the EXTSEL is set LOW to block the internal RAM. 2. expansion with remaped onboard 64kB. In this mode, the EXTSEL is allways LOW and the main 64kB RAM si remaped into new RAM above the 256kB space and allways active when CASINH is HIGH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 how about MIO, BlackBox KMKIDE, IDEa, and lastly - SpeedDrive? those are all PBI devices anyways, seems like mode 1 will work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctirad Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 how about MIO, BlackBox KMKIDE, IDEa, and lastly - SpeedDrive? those are all PBI devices True, but frankly I have never seen those in the wild and also I don't think their users will be interested in my RAM upgrade. It's not stackable anyway and I'm not going to do so either. anyways, seems like mode 1 will work Good, but I still think, the cleaner way would be to alter the CASINH signal from within VBXE. Then there will be still possibility to remap the internal RAM which will help many users with failing RAM chips. BTW, I still don't much understand where is the point of using the VBXE and RAM 320XL together. Can anyone explain it to me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 there is no point problem is when programmer will select one of extended memory banks and decide to map vbxe memory within $4000-$8000 address range - in this case you'll have possible conflict, but this is of no consequence to VBXE other than possible software crash casinh can't be altered by VBXE, since is only input (dedicated input pin), besides that - this would require a cut on motherboard, and more than 80 people would have to change something in their setup - some of them would have to find someone to do this for them - not verry pleasant option frankly, i didn't see many things that exists in the world, but i don't disregard them, or say their not mine concern but to the point your expansion is verry compact and doesn't need to be altered - its easy to install it even for someone that don't have a clue how to use screwdriver, and that is the strongest point of it there is cost of this simplicity - sure, but you can't have everything, or please everyone its great idea, and nice that you made it it should be possible to get it redesigned so there was another PBI connector - ie standard IDC one and making it PBI friendly is not so much fuss that it seems - You just need to connect one more line (MPD) to that XC9536 fella You have there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctirad Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 problem is when programmer will select one of extended memory banks and decide to map vbxe memory within $4000-$8000 address range - in this case you'll have possible conflict, but this is of no consequence to VBXE other than possible software crash That's exactly the reason why the CASINH should be altered, because from the external card point of view, this signal in its HIGH state tells something as: "hey, current bus cycle is not used by any nonRAM device such as ROM/CHIPSET/CATRIDGE/VBXE/Whatever, thus now you can either set EXTSEL to LOW and connect something on the bus or do nothing and leave this cycle alone for internal RAM." Thus when it will be set correctly, it cannot conflict. casinh can't be altered by VBXE, since is only input (dedicated input pin), besides that - this would require a cut on motherboard, and more than 80 people would have to change something in their setup - some of them would have to find someone to do this for them - not verry pleasant option Sure, but that's the problem with an internal mods. Once you use internally any signals which are meant for an external device, you can expect problems when such external device is connected. Of course, I don't except that you will make such changes in VBXE, as for me this is a pure academical technical conversation your expansion is verry compact and doesn't need to be altered - its easy to install it even for someone that don't have a clue how to use screwdriver, and that is the strongest point of itthere is cost of this simplicity - sure, but you can't have everything, or please everyone Definitely. it should be possible to get it redesigned so there was another PBI connector - ie standard IDC oneand making it PBI friendly is not so much fuss that it seems - You just need to connect one more line (MPD) to that XC9536 fella You have there Is somewhere any documentation about some design rules for the PBI devices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 there is something, but not much one is in Antic - that pretty excessive, the other one i know of is DrAtari? there are some other sources as atariki (www.atariki.krap.pl) - but thats in polish, and deals only with general stuff you could also ask Curt Vendel for some documents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariNerd Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Thank you for tackling my little curious bit of whimsy with consideration. Your knowledge is phenomenal and beastly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bf2k+ Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 True, but frankly I have never seen those in the wild and also I don't think their users will be interested in my RAM upgrade. It's not stackable anyway and I'm not going to do so either. A lot of us use PBI devices. I have 3 MIOs meself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 IMHO this expansion is revolutionary because it will set A8 memory standard to 320KB (including 130XE). With this cheap and external expansion and cheap and external devices like SDrive/SIO2SD/SIO2PC, everyone will be able to play all games (Bomb Jake, Crownland, Commando, Mario Bros '88 etc.). Moreover, programmers will be no more limited to the actual standard of 64KB because everybody can pay 20 or 30 euros and plug in this expansion. Other new devices are awesome but their price and internal installation with soldering obviously limit them to enthusiasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBuell Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Is there a preorder list for ctirad's memory upgrade yet? I have my one and only 800XL hooked up upstairs (I got an XEGS recently, but after a while I decided I didn't like it for taking up twice the desk space as the 800XL) and I've been so wary about opening it up for upgrades....I've had it over 25 years! Anyway, sign me up for this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syfo-Dyas Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 @ Philsan: Actually us NTSC users have to upgrade to PAL in order to enjoy some of the newer gems such as Crownland properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) @ Philsan: Actually us NTSC users have to upgrade to PAL in order to enjoy some of the newer gems such as Crownland properly. "upgrade" : Edited April 25, 2010 by MrFish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 update? .... I always think Atari NTSC is the best hardware. Anyway, PAL have more development on last years, there is no way how to beat that 60fps @ Philsan: Actually us NTSC users have to upgrade to PAL in order to enjoy some of the newer gems such as Crownland properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+wood_jl Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 @ Philsan: Actually us NTSC users have to upgrade to PAL in order to enjoy some of the newer gems such as Crownland properly. "upgrade" : Yes, that's what the "Numen" demo tells you if you try to run it on Yankee hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 OK, here we go. Here you can see the new 320XL plug and play RAM expansion plugged into 600XL: http://krupkaj.ic.cz...riada2010&obr=8 http://krupkaj.ic.cz...riada2010&obr=9 I will add some detailed info soon. When will it be available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allas Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 There is something not clear with this expansion memory. It works like a 130XE, with possibility to separate ANTIC and CPU access ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 judging by signal that are present on PBI connector the answer is no - there is no possibility for separate ANTIC and CPU access, CART/ECI port gives such possibility, but not PBI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctirad Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 judging by signal that are present on PBI connector the answer is no - there is no possibility for separate ANTIC and CPU access, CART/ECI port gives such possibility, but not PBI Exactly. Unfortunatelly, the HALT signal is missing on the PBI, thus 130XE mode is not possible However, the XE version will have such possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctirad Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 When will it be available? You mean info or the card? There is still two issues with the production version. I still did not found the suitable enclosure which is needed for the final pcb design. The other is the missing 5V supply on the 800XL PBI connector. It can be simply solved by soldering one wire joint inside atari, but I'd like to find a solution for users who cannot solder or even do not want to dismantle its 800XL. The best would be to create some F-M pigtail on the PSU DIN, but these connectors are not quite cheap and in addition I hate to solder DIN connectors. A separate 5V PSU is also not a good solution, because without additional logic and switch will be impossible to perform a cold reset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candle Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 same thing goes for din extension cord - you'll still have 5V before the on/off switch, so best solution will be to get that 5V line on PBI connector soldered... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Philsan Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 There is still two issues with the production version. I still did not found the suitable enclosure which is needed for the final pcb design. The other is the missing 5V supply on the 800XL PBI connector. It can be simply solved by soldering one wire joint inside atari, but I'd like to find a solution for users who cannot solder or even do not want to dismantle its 800XL. The best would be to create some F-M pigtail on the PSU DIN, but these connectors are not quite cheap and in addition I hate to solder DIN connectors. A separate 5V PSU is also not a good solution, because without additional logic and switch will be impossible to perform a cold reset. Yes, you have to find an easy external solution. People able to solder will buy candle's new expansion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 How did the 1064 extension get its power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 (edited) 1064 gets it's power from a +5 source on the PBI which is only present on factory 600XL machines. IMO, soldering a single line to supply the +5V is kinda trivial - people with 10 thumbs can easily enough find someone nearby to do the job for them. Much more elegant than clumsy passthru devices to get power. If that was to be the choice, IMO the better option would be to just have the device on a joystick port - I'd assume it can supply enough Amperage for a simple RAM device. Edited April 30, 2010 by Rybags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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