My Air Raid Auction Update

[Dino]

NES cart going for a lot? HA! Check this one out.

 

Ummm... this is still way behind some NES carts

[Dino]

Roughly what percentage of ntsc hacks are found in the wild anyway? I've never found any (atari, at least... some famicom pirates here and there)

I don't think anyone knows for sure, but its far less than in Europe, Canada and Australia. The US was far more stringient in enforcing copyright laws it seems

[Omegamatrix]

Turns out that the NTSC version of Space Jockey was used in the hack.

 

 

 

                   *** ATARI 2600 CloneSpy Lister v1.4 ***
                      (c)2000/2003 - Thomas Jentzsch

(1/9)                                                 0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
0 time race (goliath - hot shot) (pal)2···········   · 61 61 53 53 53 39 40  -
1 gefecht im all (quelle) (pal)1··················   =  · 99 83 83 83 55 56 35
2 time race (rainbow vision - suntek) (pal)1······   =  =  · 83 83 83 55 56 35
3 Space Jockey (208 in 1) (Unknown) (PAL)·········   =  =  =  · 98 98 65 68 41
4 UFO (32 in 1) (Atari) (PAL)·····················   =  =  =  =  · 99 65 69 41
5 Space Jockey (Unknown) (PAL)····················   =  =  =  =  =  · 66 69 41
6 Space Jockey (Carrere Video) (PAL)··············   =  =  =  =  =  =  · 94 52
7 Space Jockey (U.S. Games Corporation) (NTSC) ~ ·   =  =  =  =  =  =  =  · 56
8 air raid (men-a-vision) (pal)1··················   -  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  ·

Unique files:    1
Total files :    9




Direct comparision of differences with Air Raid, using HOM3:

Note: All roms split were to 2K, and compared with Air Raid 2K
    (the lower half of the 4K rom, which contains the Space Jockey code)

[1] = $F000 - $F7FF
[2] = $F800 - $FFFF
                                            Differences (lower number = closer match)
gefecht im all (quelle) (pal) [1]                1971
gefecht im all (quelle) (pal) [2]                2027
Space Jockey (208 in 1) (Unknown) (PAL)          1949
Space Jockey (U.S. Games Corporation) (NTSC)     1435  * closet match
Space Jockey (Carrere Video) (PAL)               1671
Space Jockey (Unknown) (PAL)                     1947
time race (goliath - hot shot) (pal) [1]         2034
time race (goliath - hot shot) (pal) [2]         1990
UFO (32 in 1) (Atari) (PAL)                      1947
time race (rainbow vision - suntek) (pal) [1]    1971
time race (rainbow vision - suntek) (pal) [2]    1947

 

 

I know most of you don't know what this all means, but I'll explain. I split everything into 2K rom chunks and compared it all to the 2k rom chunk of Air Raid that contains the Space Jockey code.

 

The top part is TJ's Clonespy. Every game is given a number on the left hand side. We can see Air Raid is number 8. Look at column 8 on the far right hand side. Go down that column until you find the biggest number, which happens to be 56. This is the closest match. Now slide leftward across the row that 56 is on, and you'll see that it belongs to the NTSC version of Space Jockey.

 

 

Below TJ's Clonespy results I did a direct comparision with HOM3. It spits out the number of differences between 2 compared roms. A lower amount of differences means a more similar rom. Here again it belongs to the NTSC version of Space Jockey.

 

 

In conclusion both Clonespy and HOM3 gave consistent results, and both results were that Air Raid is a hack of Space Jockey NTSC.

[Dino]

Turns out that the NTSC version of Space Jockey was used in the hack.

 

 

 

                   *** ATARI 2600 CloneSpy Lister v1.4 ***
                      (c)2000/2003 - Thomas Jentzsch

(1/9)                                                 0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
0 time race (goliath - hot shot) (pal)2···········   · 61 61 53 53 53 39 40  -
1 gefecht im all (quelle) (pal)1··················   =  · 99 83 83 83 55 56 35
2 time race (rainbow vision - suntek) (pal)1······   =  =  · 83 83 83 55 56 35
3 Space Jockey (208 in 1) (Unknown) (PAL)·········   =  =  =  · 98 98 65 68 41
4 UFO (32 in 1) (Atari) (PAL)·····················   =  =  =  =  · 99 65 69 41
5 Space Jockey (Unknown) (PAL)····················   =  =  =  =  =  · 66 69 41
6 Space Jockey (Carrere Video) (PAL)··············   =  =  =  =  =  =  · 94 52
7 Space Jockey (U.S. Games Corporation) (NTSC) ~ ·   =  =  =  =  =  =  =  · 56
8 air raid (men-a-vision) (pal)1··················   -  =  =  =  =  =  =  =  ·

Unique files:    1
Total files :    9




Direct comparision of differences with Air Raid, using HOM3:

Note: All roms split were to 2K, and compared with Air Raid 2K
    (the lower half of the 4K rom, which contains the Space Jockey code)

[1] = $F000 - $F7FF
[2] = $F800 - $FFFF
                                            Differences (lower number = closer match)
gefecht im all (quelle) (pal) [1]                1971
gefecht im all (quelle) (pal) [2]                2027
Space Jockey (208 in 1) (Unknown) (PAL)          1949
Space Jockey (U.S. Games Corporation) (NTSC)     1435  * closet match
Space Jockey (Carrere Video) (PAL)               1671
Space Jockey (Unknown) (PAL)                     1947
time race (goliath - hot shot) (pal) [1]         2034
time race (goliath - hot shot) (pal) [2]         1990
UFO (32 in 1) (Atari) (PAL)                      1947
time race (rainbow vision - suntek) (pal) [1]    1971
time race (rainbow vision - suntek) (pal) [2]    1947

 

 

I know most of you don't know what this all means, but I'll explain. I split everything into 2K rom chunks and compared it all to the 2k rom chunk of Air Raid that contains the Space Jockey code.

 

The top part is TJ's Clonespy. Every game is given a number on the left hand side. We can see Air Raid is number 8. Look at column 8 on the far right hand side. Go down that column until you find the biggest number, which happens to be 56. This is the closest match. Now slide leftward across the row that 56 is on, and you'll see that it belongs to the NTSC version of Space Jockey.

 

 

Below TJ's Clonespy results I did a direct comparision with HOM3. It spits out the number of differences between 2 compared roms. A lower amount of differences means a more similar rom. Here again it belongs to the NTSC version of Space Jockey.

 

 

In conclusion both Clonespy and HOM3 gave consistent results, and both results were that Air Raid is a hack of Space Jockey NTSC.

Interesting! Can you say what percentage of Airraid coding is the same as space jockey?

[Omegamatrix]

Interesting! Can you say what percentage of Airraid coding is the same as space jockey?

Air Raid is double the size of Space Jockey. One half of Air Raid is the complete Space Jockey code, and the second half is all new code. So you could say 100% of the Space Jockey code is contained in Air Raid.

 

 

However they didn't leave the Space Jockey portion untouched. Things have been modified in the Space Jockey code. To what extent the code remains the same would be better accomplished with a rom disassembly, but I don't have the time to do that. If I were to guess, I would say at least 80% of the code remains the same. But that is pure speculation.

[Zap!]

I think he was saying having that $10000+ is the nice problem, because paying taxes on it implies you have that much money in one shot. I don't really think politics was entering the equation in that statment.

 

 

I think he was saying having that $10000+ is the nice problem, because paying taxes on it implies you have that much money in one shot. I don't really think politics was entering the equation in that statment.

 

That is exactly it! I don't care what your politics are, regarding the taxes. The fact is, having enough income to worry about paying them, is a damn good problem to have.

 

PM me, if you want to on the politics, but let's keep that off the thread, as starting that was not my intent, nor should it be the intent.

 

Deffo contact a professional. A coupla hundred bucks could easily return many times that amount in savings.

 

 

To hell with all this tax bullshit. Take the cash, put it in your pocket and the gov't can go fuck themselves. They get enough money out of your regular income tax, land tax,ect,ect.

I won't get into the politics of taxes here, but let's just say Shawn Sr. represents my view on them 100%. If I ever sell something for $10,000, I don't believe I should have to pay a whopping 28%. It's not like 10 million, where the luxury tax comes into place. 10 g's will not make you rich.

[Zap!]

 

That is because almost all the Pirates are not U.S. releases. That is the thing that you are missing in this equation. U.S. collectors collect U.S. stuff.

 

Even if it plays on a US system?

Nope, go check out all the rare Brazil, and Mexican games that are super rare that barely crack $10. They are NTSC games, and no one seems to care that much. Heck even the Canadian games don't get much traction in the U.S. as well. Seamonster should be more like a $500 game instead of a $100 game.

 

Never heard of Sea Monster, but here's one CIB for $10.

 

eBay Auction -- Item Number: 270554908128

[Dino]

 

That is because almost all the Pirates are not U.S. releases. That is the thing that you are missing in this equation. U.S. collectors collect U.S. stuff.

 

Even if it plays on a US system?

Nope, go check out all the rare Brazil, and Mexican games that are super rare that barely crack $10. They are NTSC games, and no one seems to care that much. Heck even the Canadian games don't get much traction in the U.S. as well. Seamonster should be more like a $500 game instead of a $100 game.

 

Never heard of Sea Monster, but here's one CIB for $10.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sea-monster-See-Monster-Atari-2600-NEW-PAL_W0QQitemZ270554908128QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVideo_Games_Games?hash=item3efe5445e0

That's the dime-a-dozen see monster, not the super rare puzzy sea monster

[Rom Hunter]

When people start plunking down $10K or more for an Atari video game, I really doubt PAL vs. NTSC is much of an issue. Legitimate vs. Pirate Hack, or whose "Official Releases" the game is listed on (or doesn't appear on) probably doesn't amount to a hill of beans, either. Heavy hitter collectors are not bidding five figures on Air Raid because of its exhilarating gameplay. They are not coughing up that much dough for label art worthy of Leonardo da Vinci.

 

Air Raid is a bastard game. We all know that. Most of the code is stolen from Space Jockey, and the rest of the code adds nothing to make the game any more endearing. Men-A-Vision was a shady operation at best. The fact that no one has ever come forward to admit any connection to the company whatsoever, after all these years, is testament to its slimy underbelly. What, then, is the attraction to Air Raid? What makes grown men (if there is such a thing in the Atari collecting world) want to part with enough money to buy a new car to add it to their collection?

 

Air Raid has unmistakeable cachet! The blue T-handled cartridge has been at the eye of a storm of controversy for decades now. Each time a new copy of Air Raid has surfaced and sold on eBay, the game has commanded a higher price. And each time that has happened, the PAL vs. NTSC communities have gone to war on the message boards, bickering over which side Air Raid rightfully belongs. Ironically, each side wishes it belong to the other. The arguments over legitimate release or not rage right alongside. Nothing is ever decided. The camps split more decisively with each new iteration. Through the long years, uncertainty over the identity and classification of Air Raid has created such a polarizing rift in the collecting community that the rift itself has become a landmark in the history of video game collecting. Unending controversy has imbued the game with a mystique that transcends its already notable, extreme rarity. The story has grown larger than the game itself.

 

Tanman's Air Raid box IS the story. It answers questions collectors have debated over for decades. The game really is named Air Raid. The game really is a U.S. Release, albeit with a Taiwanese connection. Even if the authors of the printed text on the box cannot be trusted, its discovery and existence is nevertheless a windfall of new information (and new speculation) on the game we never had before, nor had any way of ever finding out.

 

The collector who ultimately owns the Tanman Air Raid box becomes the caretaker of a significant piece of Atari collecting lore. They will own not merely a "holy grail" rarity, but THE rosetta stone that unlocked mysteries that have confounded and divided collectors for decades. Such is the cachet of owning Air Raid. When you have $10K or more to toss down on a video game, cachet means a lot more than on whose "official list" the game is listed. Air Raid neither fits nor belongs on a list. It is a collection all on its own.

Well spoken.

 

Air Raid is truly an in-between everything game and thus stands on its own.

 

Not just a hack.

 

Not just NTSC.

 

Not just PAL.

 

Surrounded with rumors and speculations for many years.

 

And a unique appearance on top of that.

 

Edited April 6, 2010 by Rom Hunter

[Rom Hunter]

Your not from or in the USA so you don't need to make an NTSC USA elitest cover story, save that shit for the Americans that need to convince themselves it's ok not to have an Air Raid to complete their sets

And a Red Sea Crossing and a Birthday Mania cart as well, for that matter.

 

[jahfish]

TAXES for a 25 year old game?

 

i would:

 

- cancel the auction after it ended

- spend the ebay fees on two flights to vegas and two aluminium suitcases (for the buyer and seller)

- go to the bank in vegas with the buyer and pick up the sum in cash.

- both go to the CGE2010 and have a little "show & tell" event

- then a little ceremony where money and the game are exchanged (the two suitcases) ...

 

i'm sure joe would love the idea to have the game displayed there and both seller and buying get some nice attention from the collectors world. it's probably the only game that deserves such a hype

[Pioneer4x4]

I won't get into the politics of taxes here, but let's just say Shawn Sr. represents my view on them 100%. If I ever sell something for $10,000, I don't believe I should have to pay a whopping 28%. It's not like 10 million, where the luxury tax comes into place. 10 g's will not make you rich.

That is the marxist progressive tax system for you. I guess the only way out of it would be to have it counteracted by other investment losses or purchases.

Or sell it for less than the flag amount. Maybe if the box and cart were still seperate, and both ended under 10K? Then it would all just be lumped under income, not a specific incident.

[nofrills100]

That is only if you flip items on Ebay. If you hold the item for over a year than it becomes capital gains tax. Since he has had this item since 1984 he would be under capital gains tax instead of income.

 

 

Interesting. Over here, capital gains tax (CGT) was introduced in 1985. Anything purchased pre that date was exempt from CGT

yeah... i was going to say that

Perhaps if tanman canned the listing and gave it to one of us (cough cough.. me) to sell through my account on ebay-au then I could send him the proceeds in the mail (cough cough... unregistered)

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I were to guess, I would say at least 80% of the code remains the same. But that is pure speculation.

The CloneSpy values are percentages, so 56% of code is shared (including repeated code e.g. in the "new" 2k bank).

 

I did some rough disassembly with DiStella and compared the results with CompareIt. There are quite a lot of differences, so 80% seems too high. It looks closer to 50%.

 

The problem is, we do not know from where they branched the code. The US Games version of Space Jockey is closest, but maybe it was branched e.g. from a prototype of Space Jockey. It's definitely not a direct hack, since instructions have been inserted causing all address behind to move around. So it is more likely based on existing source code.

 

But there are also remains from the original code:

;Space Jockey:
 jsr    Lf612
 bmi    Lf0ce
Lf07b:
 ...
Lf0ce:
 jmp    Lf3cc

;Air Raid:
 jmp    Lfe65           
 bmi    Lf0b5 ; unused code! 
Lf07b:
 ...
Lf0b5:
 jmp    Lf88d ; jump to the 2nd 2k bank!         

Here the code seems to be directly hacked, but not based on the US Games Space Jockey version we know.

 

My speculation is, that someone with access to the Space Jockey code during development made a copy, founded Men-A-Vision and created Air Raid from the stolen code.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Rom Hunter]

My speculation is, that someone with access to the Space Jockey code during development made a copy, founded Men-A-Vision and created Air Raid from the stolen code.

That's an interesting theory, Thomas.

 

But not unlikely, since both games are from 1982.

 

[Albert]

My speculation is, that someone with access to the Space Jockey code during development made a copy, founded Men-A-Vision and created Air Raid from the stolen code.

That's an interesting theory, Thomas.

 

But not unlikely, since both games are from 1982.

 

We don't actually know when "Air Raid" was released. Could have been later. Has anyone claimed to have purchased it in 1982?

 

..Al

[Cebus Capucinis]

We don't actually know when "Air Raid" was released. Could have been later. Has anyone claimed to have purchased it in 1982?

 

..Al

 

EPROMS NOT GLUED DATED 1975 SHOW THAT 10 OUT OF 9 PEOPLE DESPITE VIOLENCE AGREE THAT AIR RAID CARTRIDGE IS PROVEN BEYOND DOUBT TO NOT HAVE BEEN REPRODUCED LATER THAN THAT DATE

 

 

I think it's next to impossible to pin down any solid proof when it was released (if it was a general release at all), etc. That's what makes this cart so cool!

[Zap!]

I won't get into the politics of taxes here, but let's just say Shawn Sr. represents my view on them 100%. If I ever sell something for $10,000, I don't believe I should have to pay a whopping 28%. It's not like 10 million, where the luxury tax comes into place. 10 g's will not make you rich.

That is the marxist progressive tax system for you. I guess the only way out of it would be to have it counteracted by other investment losses or purchases.

Or sell it for less than the flag amount. Maybe if the box and cart were still seperate, and both ended under 10K? Then it would all just be lumped under income, not a specific incident.

 

 

The best thing to do is just sell it on Atari Age. Then there's no record of it and you pay nothing. Maybe he should have listed it in the classifieds for $20,000.

[jahfish]

EPROMS NOT GLUED DATED 1975 SHOW THAT 10 OUT OF 9 PEOPLE DESPITE VIOLENCE AGREE THAT AIR RAID CARTRIDGE IS PROVEN BEYOND DOUBT TO NOT HAVE BEEN REPRODUCED LATER THAN THAT DATE

 

[Luc]

 

Air Raid only ever ended up for sale in the States. If it was PAL it'd have shown up in a PAL country.

 

You're probably right, but I could have sworn I read about Men-a-vision's Air Raid here in Belgium back in 198x, long before I got on the internet. Rom, do you know if it ever got reviewed in Tilt?

 

I'm probably mistaken, but I feel like checking my old issues of Tilt anyway...

Edited April 6, 2010 by Luc

[Zap!]

EPROMS NOT GLUED DATED 1975 SHOW THAT 10 OUT OF 9 PEOPLE DESPITE VIOLENCE AGREE THAT AIR RAID CARTRIDGE IS PROVEN BEYOND DOUBT TO NOT HAVE BEEN REPRODUCED LATER THAN THAT DATE

 

10 out of 9 people seems a little hard to do.

[jahfish]

 

Air Raid only ever ended up for sale in the States. If it was PAL it'd have shown up in a PAL country.

 

You're probably right, but I could have sworn I read about Men-a-vision's Air Raid here in Belgium back in 198x, long before I got on the internet. Rom, do you know if it ever got reviewed in Tilt?

 

I'm probably mistaken, but I feel like checking my old issues of Tilt anyway...

 

i've ot a lot of Tilt! scans as well .... i'll check those ...

[Shawn]

Your not from or in the USA so you don't need to make an NTSC USA elitest cover story, save that shit for the Americans that need to convince themselves it's ok not to have an Air Raid to complete their sets

And a Red Sea Crossing and a Birthday Mania cart as well, for that matter.

 

 

 

Birthday Mania I can agree on that with you but Red Sea Crossing is a homebrew more than anything if it actually is real which has yet to be confirmed.

[Cebus Capucinis]

Red Sea Crossing is a giant bunch of BUPKUS! I believe it is fake!

[Omegamatrix]

The CloneSpy values are percentages, so 56% of code is shared (including repeated code e.g. in the "new" 2k bank).

I knew your Clonespy was producing these percentages, but I was unsure if it'd pick up small packets of code bring moved around. I've only ever looked at Air Raid through Bithacker myself (looking for an Air Raid logo, there is none). What's the limits on Clonespy? Would it be able to detect a 4 byte table being picked up and placed elsewhere in the code? I mean would it give a huge percent difference then?

 

 

My speculation is, that someone with access to the Space Jockey code during development made a copy, founded Men-A-Vision and created Air Raid from the stolen code.

Perhaps, and even more so if there wasn't a good disassembler back in the day. I have no idea if there even was one, but it sure wasn't Distella.