The New Donkey Kong "Arcade" For 8-Bit

[NE146]

I've played a ton of arcade DK as well as Atari 8-bit DK and yes I agree the game is the same, but the GAMEPLAY is different enough to make them each their own enjoyable experience. 8-bit DK plays faster but there's more subtlety & strategy in the the arcade version. I love them both.

 

But yeah if there's one way to further "improve" 8-bit DK.. how about giving it the option for 1-2-3-4 stage progression just like the original DK?

 

oh another thing that always bugged me about it is the amount of fireballs that come out in the conveyer-belt stage is totally wrong. It should be 1 fireball per stage level (stage 1 = 1 fireball, stage 2 = 2 fireballs, etc.) In the 8-bit version since it uses the U.S. Stage progression, you first see the conveyer-belts on stage 3.. yet, FIVE fireballs come out. That's always bugged me

[Rybags]

The stage progression is a US/Japan(world) version type of thing, so is "authentic" at least from the POV of the developer.

 

I prefer the "world" approach but I suppose the US approach has it's advantages, probably made people put more money in so they could discover all the stages.

[NE146]

Yep in my part of the world I grew up with the Jap 1-2-3-4. But these days I prefer the US stage progression, it just mixes things up a bit and is a little more interesting. It is funny to me though that people who have only played the US version never saw the elevator or conveyer-belt stages in their "easy" initial stage of difficulty.

 

I just thought of something... I wonder if the "easy" version of those stages is even programmed into the 8-bit version? Just purely out of curiosity

[Kjmann]

I just thought of something... I wonder if the "easy" version of those stages is even programmed into the 8-bit version? Just purely out of curiosity

 

 

No, It's not in there.

[Kjmann]

I tweaked a few of the sounds for the background music and changed the Hammer music a little.

 

Here is a video of the slight sound changes and showing off the Collision Detection Fix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7S0fx8ZY7M

 

Here is a video of the "Elevators Level"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsB4Km2s1zE

 

Here is a Video of the "Cement Factory Level"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij9jZikUlt8

[landondyer]

Does Landon know about this?

 

Tempest

 

I was PM'd about this. I haven't played it, but these mostly sound like improvements. (I deliberately left the introduction cartoon out of the cartridge, on the theory that it was used in the arcade version to burn up "arcade minutes," and that it would eventually be tedious for home players).

 

Naturally I have no official capacity to approve or disapprove.

[Tempest]

Naturally I have no official capacity to approve or disapprove.

True, but in my book it's always nice to get the blessing of the original programmer when doing something like this if possible. Even if they don't actually own the rights to the game.

 

BTW was the bug fixed version (the one that fixed Mario's death animation) ever released?

 

Tempest

[JamesD]

This is how Donkey Dong is supposed to look and sound.

It's the CoCo3 version but the sound and graphics are pretty much copied from the arcade version.

[tep392]

This is how Donkey Dong is supposed to look and sound.

It's the CoCo3 version but the sound and graphics are pretty much copied from the arcade version.

 

I would hope that the a 512k CoCo3, released 7 years after the Atari, could pull off a better port of DK. The author did a nice port/emulation of the original. Very impressive.

[atariksi]

This is how Donkey Dong is supposed to look and sound.

It's the CoCo3 version but the sound and graphics are pretty much copied from the arcade version.

 

I would hope that the a 512k CoCo3, released 7 years after the Atari, could pull off a better port of DK. The author did a nice port/emulation of the original. Very impressive.

 

I am not impressed although it could have done better given the machine specs. The video itself shows poor collision detection-- he walks right through the umbrella and should have died in that elevator scene as well. Also, it looks "skippy"-- maybe the youtube video is causing that. I still pick A8 version over this one (and arcade version). The barrels look better on A8 and also the flames. I don't different barrels having different colors makes it look cartoonish (maybe they choose wrong colors). How come they have a good flame in the oil can but they look like ghosts when they are not in the oil can. And when they change color like the monsters in pac-man, they look even worse. Another inconsistency-- the ape looks good and normal during gameplay but he looks mentally retarded when they show the level. One thing that's good is that they show the ape is animated when the level ends whereas on A8 it just skips past that part (doesn't affect gameplay). A8 also sounds better.

[NE146]

This is how Donkey Dong is supposed to look and sound.

It's the CoCo3 version but the sound and graphics are pretty much copied from the arcade version.

 

I would hope that the a 512k CoCo3, released 7 years after the Atari, could pull off a better port of DK. The author did a nice port/emulation of the original. Very impressive.

 

I am not impressed although it could have done better given the machine specs. The video itself shows poor collision detection-- he walks right through the umbrella and should have died in that elevator scene as well. Also, it looks "skippy"-- maybe the youtube video is causing that. I still pick A8 version over this one (and arcade version). The barrels look better on A8 and also the flames. I don't different barrels having different colors makes it look cartoonish (maybe they choose wrong colors). How come they have a good flame in the oil can but they look like ghosts when they are not in the oil can. And when they change color like the monsters in pac-man, they look even worse. Another inconsistency-- the ape looks good and normal during gameplay but he looks mentally retarded when they show the level. One thing that's good is that they show the ape is animated when the level ends whereas on A8 it just skips past that part (doesn't affect gameplay). A8 also sounds better.

 

You are smoking crack.. that is an excellent looking and sounding port. If we had that back in the day I would've probably wet my pants

 

And what do you mean he walks through the umbrella.. the collision detection seems consistent with the arcade original where you had to completely walk through some of the prize to collect it. Your other "inconsistency" that the ape looks retarded when they show the level.. have you even played the original Donkey Kong? I mean come on.. that's exactly how it looks in the arcade game

 

 

I'm a huge fan of the A8 version, but that version does something the A8 version doesn't do. It's level 3 and THREE FIREBALLS come out on the side of Mario in the conveyer belt stage. That is huge to the gameplay at least in my eyes. There always has to be the right amount of fireballs matching the level. In the A8 version for some stupid reason, five (?) fireballs come out in level 3 and jump out all over the place.

[Rybags]

Let's not forget... unlike many of the other versions, the A8 one is constrained in that it has to live in 16K ROM, and must work on a 16K RAM system.

 

Take those restrictions away, then practically all the missing gameplay elements, and other improvements could easily have been made.

[atariksi]

This is how Donkey Dong is supposed to look and sound.

It's the CoCo3 version but the sound and graphics are pretty much copied from the arcade version.

 

I would hope that the a 512k CoCo3, released 7 years after the Atari, could pull off a better port of DK. The author did a nice port/emulation of the original. Very impressive.

 

I am not impressed although it could have done better given the machine specs. The video itself shows poor collision detection-- he walks right through the umbrella and should have died in that elevator scene as well. Also, it looks "skippy"-- maybe the youtube video is causing that. I still pick A8 version over this one (and arcade version). The barrels look better on A8 and also the flames. I don't different barrels having different colors makes it look cartoonish (maybe they choose wrong colors). How come they have a good flame in the oil can but they look like ghosts when they are not in the oil can. And when they change color like the monsters in pac-man, they look even worse. Another inconsistency-- the ape looks good and normal during gameplay but he looks mentally retarded when they show the level. One thing that's good is that they show the ape is animated when the level ends whereas on A8 it just skips past that part (doesn't affect gameplay). A8 also sounds better.

 

You are smoking crack.. that is an excellent looking and sounding port. If we had that back in the day I would've probably wet my pants

...

No, you misread my approach. I'm not taking arcade version as an absolute one to compare with. I am claiming A8 version IS BETTER than the arcade version. So my comments will now make more sense to you. Sound was off in this video for some cases. And making it look better isn't going to make the game better. Collision detection is BIG for games like these with many obstacles, ladders, etc.

 

And what do you mean he walks through the umbrella.. the collision detection seems consistent with the arcade original where you had to completely walk through some of the prize to collect it. Your other "inconsistency" that the ape looks retarded when they show the level.. have you even played the original Donkey Kong? I mean come on.. that's exactly how it looks in the arcade game

Again, the same point. Inconsistency within the game itself. Flames look one way in the oil can and inferior when out of the oil can. Same with the ape. He walks right through the umbrella-- perhaps arcade version needs to have that fixed as it shouldn't be happening in real life. Oh, that video posted earlier is even worse-- the collision is completely wrong in the elevators screen and Mario jumps from one platform to another in one of the levels without dieing.

 

I'm a huge fan of the A8 version, but that version does something the A8 version doesn't do. It's level 3 and THREE FIREBALLS come out on the side of Mario in the conveyer belt stage. That is huge to the gameplay at least in my eyes. There always has to be the right amount of fireballs matching the level. In the A8 version for some stupid reason, five (?) fireballs come out in level 3 and jump out all over the place.

 

That's subjective given I don't take arcade version as an absolute point for comparison. The playability is same regardless of three fireballs come on the side or they don't. If I get used to playing A8 version, I would say arcade version has it wrong and vice-versa. But the collision detection, inconsistencies, and wrong color choices for barrels isn't subjective.

[+wood_jl]

The fact that Mario moves faster (some might say too fast, but not me) than the arcade makes it faster-paced and more fun (than the arcade) to some people. That, and the fact that it's an excellent job in general. And it was the best of its time. And it's the one I grew up with. And excellent point Rybags- pointing out the 16k restriction; this is very easy to forget in the age of gigabytes.

[NE146]

That's subjective given I don't take arcade version as an absolute point for comparison. The playability is same regardless of three fireballs come on the side or they don't. If I get used to playing A8 version, I would say arcade version has it wrong and vice-versa. But the collision detection, inconsistencies, and wrong color choices for barrels isn't subjective.

 

That's fine. Lots of people prefer the A8 version as it's an awesome port with fast gameplay. However you trying to make a point of it being "better" version is futile... To me you can't get any better than the original and actual game itself Whether you think it or not, it IS the absolute point for comparison.

 

The original Donkey Kong has a lot of gameplay subtlety and strategy that is missed by the more action-oriented A8 version. But anyway, again I really like the A8 version as there's no doubt it's a lot of fun. But I enjoy it the same way I enjoy Crystal Castles and Ms. Pacman on the Atari 2600.. they're far cries from the original but that doesn't stop them from being great ports that are fun to play.

Edited June 15, 2010 by NE146

[atariksi]

That's subjective given I don't take arcade version as an absolute point for comparison. The playability is same regardless of three fireballs come on the side or they don't. If I get used to playing A8 version, I would say arcade version has it wrong and vice-versa. But the collision detection, inconsistencies, and wrong color choices for barrels isn't subjective.

 

That's fine. Lots of people prefer the A8 version as it's an awesome port with fast gameplay. However you trying to make a point of it being "better" version is futile... To me you can't get any better than the original and actual game itself Whether you think it or not, it IS the absolute point for comparison.

...

Sorry, I prefer having pause, joystick selection, better collision detection, no mentally retarded apes, and more consistent flame looks. If it was absolute, all its features can never be improved upon but you see the A8 version already improved things.

 

The original Donkey Kong has a lot of gameplay subtlety and strategy that is missed by the more action-oriented A8 version. But anyway, again I really like the A8 version as there's no doubt it's a lot of fun. But I enjoy it the same way I enjoy Crystal Castles and Ms. Pacman on the Atari 2600.. they're far cries from the original but that doesn't stop them from being great ports that are fun to play.

 

I accept that Coco3 is inferior to the arcade version. I just saw both of them and arcade version is using multiple voices and richer sounds, better collision detection than Coco3. So let's not mix coco3 as being equivalent to arcade version. Also, I just noticed another thing-- the coco3 version shows tearing while on the elevator; neither arcade version nor A8 version have tearing. I guess sprites do help even for those fast machines.

[tep392]

Let's not forget... unlike many of the other versions, the A8 one is constrained in that it has to live in 16K ROM, and must work on a 16K RAM system.

 

Take those restrictions away, then practically all the missing gameplay elements, and other improvements could easily have been made.

 

This fact is what makes the A8 release so impressive. Even with the RAM/ROM restrictions, Landon was able to create a nice looking and sounding port with all four screens and fun game play.

 

Seems that people forget what the competing games looked like back in the early 80's. Or they just aren't old enough to have lived through all the crappy ports we had back then. This game was extremely good when compared to its competition back in 1983.

Edited June 15, 2010 by tep392

[+Philsan]

Let's not forget... unlike many of the other versions, the A8 one is constrained in that it has to live in 16K ROM, and must work on a 16K RAM system.

This fact must always considered when judging A8 games.

[atariksi]

Let's not forget... unlike many of the other versions, the A8 one is constrained in that it has to live in 16K ROM, and must work on a 16K RAM system.

This fact must always considered when judging A8 games.

 

I'll take the 16K Atari ROM cart over that coco3 nonaccelerated video, non-hardware collision detection, software-mixed audio even w/512K RAM anyday. One of the reasons PC games sucked with CGA/EGA, higher resolutions and slower updates-- put most of the burden on the CPU.

[JamesD]

The only reason I brought up the CoCo3 version is because the updated Atari version is called "Arcade" but it really doesn't sound, look, or play much more like the arcade than the original. It has some fixes to collision detection and different sound, but it isn't like the arcade.

If someone is going to release an updated Atari 8 bit version and call it "Arcade", I would like some things to be more like the arcade.

Fitting another girder on screen would be great... but I don't consider it realistic. The screen just isn't tall enough on the Atari and it's a major rewrite so I can understand not messing with that.

I think intermissions and missing animations would be a great addition without a total redo of the game. After all, why does a modern game need to be limited to 16K?

Sounds is another area where I think the Atari could be more like the arcade. I wouldn't expect them to match exactly but getting the pitch of the sounds the same would give it more of an arcade feel.

 

As for other comments...

The original Atari version was limited to 16K and the authors didn't have access to the original Donkey Kong source code. It as an approximation and was made easier for home play. The arcade version is meant to eat quarters by killing you. If the CoCo3 version has any flaw it's that it's so much like the arcade that it will be just as frustrating as the arcade. I certainly wouldn't expect a lot of 5 year old kids to react as positively to the greater difficulty of the arcade machine as to the Atari version. But then I was a teenager when DK was released so I don't mind the difficulty. I just didn't like spending so much to master the game.

 

Someone said the intro animations on the Arcade were probably to burn up arcade minutes. I gotta disagree here.

Time is money in an Arcade and if anything they reduced the money making potential of the machine.

I don't really think they thought about it beyond making the game more attractive to draw players to the machine.

In a home version you could check for a button press to skip the animation if you didn't want to sit through it so I don't see those boring a home player.

 

As for some of the other comments...

More consistent flames? Yeah... they are consistently brown and blue flames on the Atari.

512K reference? Yeah... sampled sounds are big. So is translating the original 20,000+ lines of code, especially if you don't have sprites or tile hardware but the original game does.

Speed. The CoCo3 has the same clock speed as the Atari so I gotta wonder what the point was there.

Retarded ape? And the Atari one looks like he's sad... so?

 

The compression on youtube messes up a lot of things. At least play the CoCo3 version and arcade version before you start making up excuses of how crappy the CoCo3 version is.

 

The CoCo3 version looks, sounds and plays more like the arcade than any other 8 bit version... period.

You can make up excuses till hell freezes over and that will not change.

 

The Atari version is very different from the arcade version. I don't mind the missing girders, differences in gameplay from the arcade, differences in colors, missing animations, etc. It's fun to play.

But superior to the arcade? Easier maybe, different definitely, but superior? Well, that is an opinion... something that differs from one person to the next and some people seem to lack objectivity on matters related to anything Atari.

I started on the Arcade machine so I prefer it. That's my opinion and nobody has to agree.

If you think the Atari is superior, well... you are entitled to that opinion. But that doesn't make it a fact either way.

[tep392]

Let's not forget... unlike many of the other versions, the A8 one is constrained in that it has to live in 16K ROM, and must work on a 16K RAM system.

This fact must always considered when judging A8 games.

 

I'll take the 16K Atari ROM cart over that coco3 nonaccelerated video, non-hardware collision detection, software-mixed audio even w/512K RAM anyday. One of the reasons PC games sucked with CGA/EGA, higher resolutions and slower updates-- put most of the burden on the CPU.

 

I play these old games on my old computers because of gameplay, nastagia, etc.

 

These CoCo3 type emulation efforts on old hardware are just interesting programming experiments to me. It's cool to see what people can do on these old machines, but why would I play a poorly emulated game on ancient hardware when MAME on a modern PC does it much better.

 

EDIT:

When I say "poorly emulated" I'm speaking in general about these attempts at emulating on old hardware. I actually think the CoCo3 DK is one of the better examples.

Edited June 15, 2010 by tep392

[atariksi]

The only reason I brought up the CoCo3 version is because the updated Atari version is called "Arcade" but it really doesn't sound, look, or play much more like the arcade than the original. It has some fixes to collision detection and different sound, but it isn't like the arcade.

Thanks for pointing that out but you did write in post #58 above: "This is how Donkey Dong is supposed to look and sound." using the Coco3 version. Now I have looked at both of them side by side and arcade version is better than Coco3 version and A8 version is also better than Coco3 version. So your statement is incorrect that it's how the arcade version looks. Arcade version doesn't have tearing, it has better sound, better collision detection, and probably other things not seen on video and apparent given the limited hardware support on the CoCo3. As far as easy, A8 version is pretty hard for youngsters.

 

As for some of the other comments...

More consistent flames? Yeah... they are consistently brown and blue flames on the Atari.

The flames aren't brown on my Atari. Blue and red is normal for flames and I was referring to the shape being inconsistent with the flames in the oil can.

 

Speed. The CoCo3 has the same clock speed as the Atari so I gotta wonder what the point was there.

Retarded ape? And the Atari one looks like he's sad... so?

I don't know what or whose point you are addressing regarding speed, but if you have to burden the CPU for all the graphics and sounds, it becomes slower than A8. Two different apes when compared in same game, one is goofy or has a screw loose compared to the other. Inconsistent unlike A8.

 

The CoCo3 version looks, sounds and plays more like the arcade than any other 8 bit version... period.

You can make up excuses till hell freezes over and that will not change.

It's in your own link-- the tearing, the messed up collision detection, retarded ape, bad flames, etc. and you think *I* am making excuses. I was willing to take your word coco3 is like the arcade until I saw the video for the arcade version. The sounds at least should be obvious to you are superior on arcade version if you can't see the tearing.

 

But superior to the arcade? Easier maybe, different definitely, but superior? Well, that is an opinion...

I gave you reasons why its better. You gave your opinion. Obviously, if you compare arcade version to arcade version it's 100% accurate, but then you compare to reality that you would rather have flames look like ideal flames and apes ideal apes or at least be consistent within the same game, then you see that improvements can be made to arcade version as well.

 

That's my opinion and nobody has to agree.

If you think the Atari is superior, well... you are entitled to that opinion. But that doesn't make it a fact either way.

 

Thanks for admitting it's your opinion, but don't assume what others are offering is their opinion. If I think sun rises in the east and you think sun rises in the west, those are not just two opinions. For fast paced games with obstacles like this one, the controls and collison detection are essential and skipping frames or tearing isn't going to help either.

[ZylonBane]

Atariksi, the only "mentally retarded ape" here is you.

Edited June 15, 2010 by ZylonBane

[atariksi]

EDIT:

When I say "poorly emulated" I'm speaking in general about these attempts at emulating on old hardware. I actually think the CoCo3 DK is one of the better examples.

"Emulate" does not mean what you think it means.

 

I didn't understand what he meant by "old hardware" and then excludes the coco3. Here's what coco3 hardware does for you (from wiki):

 

"Due to the CoCo's design, the MPU encounters no wait states in normal operation. This means that precise software controlled timing loops are easily implemented. This is important, since the CoCo has no specialized hardware for any I/O. All I/O operations, such as cassette reading and writing, serial I/O, scanning the keyboard, and reading the position of the joysticks, must be done entirely in software. This reduces hardware cost, but reduces system performance as the MPU is unavailable during these operations.

As an example, the CoCo cassette interface is perhaps one of the fastest available (1500-bit/s) but it does so by literally playing software generated sine waves through its internal 6-bit DAC. While this is happening, the CoCo cannot do anything else as this uses all the CPU time. Similarly, to read data off the cassette, the CoCo must count waveform crossings and thus cannot do anything else until either an error occurs or the operation ends.

...

The CoCo video hardware was derived from a chip designed as display for a character based terminal, and is a completely "dumb" device. Similarly, the sound hardware is little more than a 6-bit DAC under software control. All graphics and sound require direct CPU intervention, and while this allows for great flexibility, its performance is much lower than dedicated hardware."

 

I'll take A8 hardware over the Coco3. I'll even take C64 hardware over Coco3.

[atariksi]

Atariksi, the only "mentally retarded ape" here is you.

 

Address the points and keep your insults to yourself.