Is Laser Gates really Inner Space?

[DanOliver]

Wait a minute...Tempest, is AtariProto your site?

[SoulBlazer]

Wait a minute...Tempest, is AtariProto your site?

Yes it is. And a great site it is.

[Tempest]

Solar Fox. I found it at AtartProtos.

Oh ok. What's funny is that's my site and I had completely forgotten about that rumor mill entry. I keep hoping that this version will turn up as Solar Fox is one of my favorite games.

[Tempest]

Yep Atariprotos is my site.

[DanOliver]

I seem to keep ending up there.

[DanOliver]

I have a basic design for my next VCS game and I want to launch it at AtariAge. The working title is Channel 3 and will be developed by VentureVision and be the next game in the VentureVision series.

 

My inspiration for the game came from this community and all the other Atari historical sites and emails I've been reading the past few days.

 

Back in the day we never had a clue about our audience and I'd like to take advantage of being able to communicate with potential players to design this game specifically for them. Involve players into the process even before the game is done.

 

This will be a MMOG VCS game, but light on the "massively".

 

Players will be able to play as a team on either "side". This will not involve connecting the VCS to the net in any way and instead be more like D&D, more manual, more 1980. Players can communicate via phone or over the net.

 

Plan for selling the game...

I also wanted to take advantage of 2 other things I didn't have available back in the day. Collectors and Melody carts being one offs.

 

Sell the game for a limited time. Say 1 week. And then maybe 2 week period for shipping and confirmation. But the cart won't play without a code. At a pre-announced date/time the code will be posted so all players can start at the same time. There will be levels to get thru and codes needed to proceed but in between different more standard play type play.

 

As people accomplish goals they will be given codes from the game which they will post or communicate to each other so everyone can get thru together to the next level. First person to post a code will be immortalized for all time. I'll make sure everyone can keep playing until almost everyone is caught up. But some players may just have to be left behind. War is hell.

 

The game will also be playable in single player mode. I think after the initial launch people could chose to set up the same type of thing using a web where they post a launch date/time and a code would be issued, etc. The difference is on the first wave no player will have ever been able to have ever seen the game.

 

A question I have is whether game sales should be limited to a single week? Does anyone think there is any collector value in doing so?

 

I would then like to learn from the first game and tweak another in the series that would be very similar and repeat the launch of the next title. As far as I know nothing like this has been done and I don't know if that seems desirable? Instead of the next version being a huge change, just some small changes, like missions, some new levels.

 

Pre-launch backstory...

As part of the game research I would like to start a thread ASAP somewhere on AtariAge in the voice of 2 characters in the game. Members would be encouraged to join in if they wish and post whatever they wanted. Members would use the thread as they wish. The 2 game characters would interact to learn about features people like and don't like in a game and get ideas. I would use this process to design the actual game.

 

I have no idea what direction this would go or whether it would even work. I'm looking for a way to role play in a thread and then use that thread to produce a game. That this thread would in fact be part of the total game experience and the cart only be the end of the "game". People who only played the cart would be playing Channel 3 while people who read and/or took part in the thread AND played the cart would have The Channel 3 Experience, C3E.

 

I expect that thread would last about a year because that's how long it would take to finish my current project. Then cart development would take however long but the thread would continue right up to the cart launch date. I expect development to take a long time because Melody has so much space and my plan would be to use all of it.

 

I would need to limit my time in C3E to I'm thinking 2 hours per week and that limit would be part of the story. But anyone else could post whatever, whenever.

 

Permission...

I PM Albert what I'd like to do to make sure it was OK and/or work out details. I have since found the "Forum Guidelines and Rules" and see this would break several rules. The forum is about discussing games and this would be more like role playing, but to me you would be "discussing a game", just in a different way maybe.

 

I also wanted one of the characters to be a bit rude and curse, but having read the forum rules think the cursing probably isn't such a good idea.

 

What do you think? Is this even appropriate for this forum?

 

What forum section could something like this be in? None seemed to jump out at me. Maybe "Contests"?

 

Thanks

[high voltage]

Amazing, the first female lead character in a console video game (Billie Sue in Wabbit) was written by a woman.

[mkiker2089]

Dan, I'm new here but regarding language I imagine spoiler blocks would work.

 

Regarding collector value, typically they offer a cart only for those who just want the game and CIB sometimes with extra swag for collectors.

[Supergun]

Listen Dan,

 

By all means, you have the right to do whatever you wish, and surely my opinion is but one of hundreds that "might matter" to you, or might not, but I feel the need to state it regardless if you think nothing of it.

 

Personally, I would have ZERO interest in some multi player networked style game. That's one of the main reasons I play & collect games for the older cartridge based game systems; I DESPISE modern gaming. Modern games SUCK for me. I don't play them. I don't buy them. I don't care for them. Never have and never will.

 

But by all means, make one if you like, and maybe it will sell, and maybe it will be a "hit", etc. However, and here is where my opinion and "request" comes in...PLEASE...PLEASE...PLEASE do NOT make it a "sequel" to the VentureVision series. Please don't "ruin" that great set of games. This "ridiculous and completely unrelated" game idea has NO PLACE in that series!

 

Over the last week or so, I have been playing heavily both Rescue Terra I & Laser Gates. And have come to have a tremendous amount of respect & appreciation for how well they play. They are much more difficult then the average Atari game, yet perfectly balanced as they do not cause "frustration". Rather they keep you interested and draw you in to continue to play over & over, both for score improvement as well as the enjoyment of getting further into the game.

 

Anyhow, by all means, make your "crazy game", but just don't associate it with these two games. And then maybe, perhaps maybe, someday you can make a REAL sequel to the series, (as a NORMAL Atari space shooter style game) for which I would gladly purchase and enjoy.

 

But again, this is all just one persons opinion.

Do as you will.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Dan, I hate to rain on your parade, but you've got to consider the scale of what you are doing. MMO games require hundreds if not thousands of variables; Atari VCS has only 128 bytes of RAM. Of course you already know this. I'm pretty sure you could expand the RAM with cartridge hardware, but bankswapping would be a nightmare. I'm sure the necessary codes would be long-winded as well. Also by exchanging codes on the internet, gamers could easily exploit the game by finding codes that do stuff otherwise not intended. A better method for creating a networked Atari game would be to use a USB-to-parallel port adapter, followed by a custom 25-9 pin wiring diagram to interface it with the right controller port on the Atari. The adapter could allow the Atari to interface with software with a modern computer without the need for custom drivers, because driver signing for 64-bit windows is very expensive. Secondly, you'll need to run a server to connect the players, unless the gamer computers use a type of ad-hoc or P2P network to communicate.

 

But the real issue here is not how you implement the connection, but the fact the actual homebrew market is incredibly small. A production run of 250 games is considered highly successful for an Atari homebrew game, even one that's been available for several years. The likelyhood of finding even two players online with such a small pool is very small. Also, who really wants to wire their Atari up to a computer to play a MMO type game? Such an effort would be better directed towards a modern operating system like Windows/OSX/Linux, and if it's freeware, it may become very popular. I just don't see such a concept working on the Atari 2600.

[DanOliver]

Supergun,

 

That's why I asked and I'm glad at least someone responded. The scene here is very new to me, not really sure what you all are all about. I don't really want to spend a few months work for nothing, or worst insulting this community. So thanks for saving me that.

 

It's not just your post. I've been reading a lot of other threads since my last post and know the community a little bit better. I kind of came to the same conclusion you stated clearly. So I thank you for that.

 

However, as far as ruining the VentureVision series...you have nooooooo idea what kind of game this next game would have been. None, zero, zip. Couldn't conceive of even a fragment of what this game could have been I know this for a fact because I have nooooooo idea what this game would have been. But you do! You don't trust me to come up with an appropriate game for my own games????? Fell free to cram that.

 

I thought market managers were narrow minded.

 

Glad you like the 1980's games. Glad you liked some old stories.

 

However, with 30 years more programming experience than I had back then and with the new tech like Melody it just wouldn't be possible for me to do yet another 1980 game. I'm not right for the job. I withdraw my game concept.

 

-Dan

[DanOliver]

stardust4ever,

 

Thanks for your post.

 

I did kind of have a rough idea that the VCS had 128 bytes of RAM and even a vague notion of what a MMOG is because I've being doing it for a little while now. And I did a little research before hand, in this very thread about the market size.

 

Not to worry, my game idea is history.

[Rom Hunter]

This might sound strange for someone who archives Old Era VCS games only, but I really think you should go for it, Dan.

 

You're completely right: this isn't the 80's anymore and of course your knowledge and experience on programming has developed during last the 30 years.

 

And now you have an idea that sparks your creativity and you want to put effort in it.

 

I think that's great.

 

I say: what the hell, go for it!

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Edited May 26, 2013 by Rom Hunter

[DanOliver]

Thanks Rom Hunter, but I think the game is inappropriate for this market.

 

All projects I start have to go thru my wife who acts as a kind of manager because to me every project is exciting and I want to do. She does the math. My first pitch, just a VCS game to kick Demon Attack's butt, got shot down. My second pitch was being able to produce follow up carts faster because the power in Melody would allow that and that pitch was in the ball park. Third pitch was if I could get players to help me design a game, in an iterative process, I could make a really good game. A game good enough to cross over to the phone market, not in a huge way, but something. I call it keeping irons in fire. One might hit. Look at Boulder Dash, great game 30 years ago, great game today.

 

So looking at the project in total it was a money maker and I could continue making more VCS and crossovers. That got green lighted.

 

The mistake I made is players can't design games. I already knew this, but a small community with high interest in games, I thought that could be different.

 

Most companies I've worked for the marketing department would survey a boat load of people and ask them what they wanted in a product. You get back all these stereotypical responses. Women want less violence. Men want more action and better graphics. Marketing would give us the stats and say "make what they want". Doesn't work. People weren't saying what they wanted, they were giving opinions of things they've already seen. They don't know what's possible, it's not their job.

 

I can see now exactly how a thread on designing a game would go. MMOG!!! And 9 pages of flame war. Pointless. When I sat down to write Space Cavern in 4 weeks, blowing EPROMs, about 3 days of assembly language experience, and a hardware platform that we hardly knew anything about I'm pretty sure most people didn't a cart would fall of the line in 4 weeks. The Mindlink Product Manager was pretty sure nothing at all could be done in 1 or 2 weeks. Demon Attack couldn't be done. Pitfall couldn't be done. Pitfall II certainly wasn't possible.

 

If the concept for Tempest had been focus tested it would have never been made. After Tempest was out people could then say they wanted games "more like Tempest".

 

I think the axiom remains true. Product development doesn't really have a lot to do with what people currently want. Steve Jobs never surveyed users. He'd say something like "build what they're going to want, not what they want today."

 

I'd have just as much fun making a VCS game that sells 100 copies as I would a Windows app that sells thousands of copies. I love programming and creating products. If all things are even, once the user helping to design is removed, I rather write the Windows app and so would my manager. I know you'll understand.

 

Gave it a shot and it isn't going to work. Moving on time.

[RevEng]

Dan, I think your idea is bold. Using human communication for the the "online" bit is clever, and the sort of sideways thinking I'd expect only from a VCS programmer.

 

I assume others didn't reply along the same lines for the same reason I didn't - the idea is just so big and undefined at this point that it's hard to get a handle on. Or possibly you just need a new thread with a suitable title, so more eyes are on it.

 

There will always be members who have a strong opinions on how things can be done, what can or can't be done, what should or shouldn't be done. Take them for what they're worth, but please don't take any discouragement to heart if you believe in your vision.

 

I agree there's no point in treading old ground. Nostalgia isn't enough to get you through the long boring bits. It's why a lot of the homebrewers, myself included try to branch out into different hardware, or work on unexpected game categories. Memory lane gets tiring unless you occasionally add new sites to see.

 

For what its worth, I think you have a pretty interesting starting point. Already I'm thinking of implementation ideas, though doubtlessly what you had in mind trumps mine!

 

[edit] I see you posted shortly before I submitted mine. Sad to see you move on from the idea, but its totally understandable if it would have to be a profitable venture.

[Trinity]

As a gamer on the 2600, I would love to see any new games like Starship, Star raiders, Starmaster, Phaser Patrol.

 

I just like flying thru space shooting things.

[DanOliver]

RevEng, it's a tricky thing. For any project I try to be in the ball park but still aim higher than I'm sure I can pull off. Then try and pull it off. That's what makes it fun.

 

1980 VCS was pretty limiting. Big then meant a new graphics trick. Today, being able to leverage the internet and Melody and how much more we know about games could be used to produce a mind blowing VCS game. I don't think it would be that much actual programming effort given graphics is still a limiting factor.

 

But, that game would different, probably not really what a lot of current players would want. Too small an audience to produce games for sub niches. On a modern platform smalls niches are fine because you're still talking thousands of possible players. But 6-8 weeks of work and maybe 10-20 players like it and the rest hate it because it's not clone of something already cloned a dozen times and you have to listen to that crap...not fun.

[DanOliver]

There will always be members who have a strong opinions on how things can be done, what can or can't be done, what should or shouldn't be done. Take them for what they're worth, but please don't take any discouragement to heart if you believe in your vision.

I don't know how many mass market produces I've shipped, maybe 15-20. Help start more than a few companies, pitched a lot of ideas. Kind of a requirement for this line of work to not get discouraged by what others say.

 

However, when it's your market talking to you I think it's smart to listen. And like I said, it wasn't just a couple of posts here. I've been reading other threads and got a similar feeling of what kind of games people here wanted. Not really much interest in new stuff, and maybe even some resentment.

 

The only thing that pissed me off was the concept that somehow I couldn't produce a decent sequel to my own games. The hubris blows my mind. But that's part of the market and really no interest in serving that market.

[mkiker2089]

Dan, let me toss in a few opinions. First I think the Atari for me works best with Arcade style games. Arcade is an often missuesed word but to me it means games that you can just jump right into and play for 5 minutes, or sit down and play for 30 minutes if the mood hits you. I'm not averse to a new type of game but I would indeed look quicker at a remake. A mode to improve Super Breakout for example should be simple to do but would get peoples attention. You can see the response Princess Rescue is getting and it was deliberatly kept quiet. River Raid would be another game that could be improved with the Melody board. I'm not asking for rip offs though.

 

As for making sequels, go for it. Some people have a different type of nostalgia that I've never understood, one based on fear rather than joy. They fear sequels and fear change. Most of us will agree that no sequel can change the game before it. That's assuming you messed it up, which I'm sure you won't. What more could we ask than a sequel by the guy who was there when it started.

 

As for a new type of game, what would work well on the VCS. Without a save mechanic I think games need to be short. Hence most VCS games only increased speed and dificulty with no real finish goals. Beyond that, go crazy and we'll let you know. You can always make a level or two and post the rom of it for us to play in Stella and let you know.

Edited May 26, 2013 by mkiker2089

[+Random Terrain]

The only thing that pissed me off was the concept that somehow I couldn't produce a decent sequel to my own games. The hubris blows my mind. But that's part of the market and really no interest in serving that market.

 

Even though players are important, their reactions should only be taken as feedback that you can use to make better games. Player comments shouldn't feed your ego or damage your self-esteem. When you have that attitude, you're pretty much bulletproof, so you won't usually take your ball and go home (no matter what people say or how much abuse you get from hubristic 'trolls'). It would be nice if you could find the time to make a new Atari 2600 game.

 

I'm a single-player guy, so I'm not interested in talking with people on the phone or communicating over the internet to play a game, but that shouldn't stop you from making a mind-blowing game that couldn't have been done in the 1980s. I'm also not interested in ports, ports, ports and more ports like a lot of people seem to be. I'm looking for games that are fun while being as unique as possible. It's also cool when an Atari 2600 game has sound effects you haven't heard a million times before.

[Andromeda Stardust]

stardust4ever,

 

Thanks for your post.

 

I did kind of have a rough idea that the VCS had 128 bytes of RAM and even a vague notion of what a MMOG is because I've being doing it for a little while now. And I did a little research before hand, in this very thread about the market size.

 

Not to worry, my game idea is history.

Dan, by no means am I trying to discourage you from jumping into designing new games for the VCS. I was simply stating an opinion that the VCS is not the right medium for a new MMORPG game concept. I think it is wonderful that "old-hat" game designers are jumping on the bandwagon of homebrew development. My favorite genres of retro games are arcade style games, platformers, and puzzlers. I was from the NES generation and I can't really seem to get into early adventure style games such as VCS Adventure. Those games don't appeal to me, but they appeal to a lot of other forum members. I never really could get into the 8-bit Zeldas either. However, I find 16-bit RPGs more accessible, and I have enjoyed many of the modern 3D platformers and adventure games I've played as well. There is also a "retro renaissance" going on with many indie game developers making new games for modern platforms with NES styled graphics, or even a completely new take on "bitmapped" graphics. I was blown away by the level of detail in 3D Dot Heroes for PS3, which is basically a brand new "old school adventure game" that takes place in a world constructed entirely of cubic pixels.

 

Getting back on topic, i think it would be awesome if you made sequels to your original "Venture Vision" games you developed 30 years ago. It should be a lot easier to develop on modern computers with unlimited resources, with tools such as Batari Basic and access to "forbidden" op codes. It takes maybe 5 seconds to compile a ROM and test it in Stella, then you have access to save states and advanced debugging tools where you can monitor RAM addresses to find out exactly what's going on inside your code. No more tweaking ASM by hand then burning EPROMS to install on dev carts, popping them into the Atari and wondering why the heck your game doesn't work, then trying to visually scan through 4k or more of code looking for bugs.

[RevEng]

I hear you Dan, and I know firsthand that people who enjoy original non-pickup-up-and-play games for the VCS are a niche within the retro crowd niche.

 

But please be sure to let us know if you decide to bring the sequel to a modern platform. I think the idea of a massively multiplayer somewhat-online asynchronous game is interesting!

[DanOliver]

Even though players are important, their reactions should only be taken as feedback that you can use to make better games. Player comments shouldn't feed your ego or damage your self-esteem. When you have that attitude, you're pretty much bulletproof, so you won't usually take your ball and go home (no matter what people say or how much abuse you get from hubristic 'trolls'). It would be nice if you could find the time to make a new Atari 2600 game.

For I think the third time...wasn't a few posts here...they only confirmed what I'd read in other threads. The killer problem was thinking a game could be designed in a forum. I knew it was a risk, but thought role playing I could kind of simulate a game, evolve a design cheaper in the forum than by writing code. Then I could basically port the game, whatever that became, to the VCS and refine it more.

 

That was pie in the sky thinking. A thread would never be able to stay on track. I'm surprised it broke down so fast, but pretty clear this type of thing isn't remotely possible. And it meshes with what I've seen in all kinds of other forums too, on many subjects.

 

It would have been a lot of fun to do a VCS game...but it's just as much fun to do a lot of other projects too. You can see that as me taking my ball and going home. To me it's just evaluating the viability of a project and deciding whether to do this or that project, which I do a lot. For every project I do there's a bunch I have to skip for lots of different reasons.

 

The "ball going home" thing I get a lot, or my personal fav "you're afraid of success". They never seem to believe that I'm trying help them by not doing their project. That imo they'd be better off finding another programmer, or changing the project. Like in this case, you seem to have a bunch of programmers willing to do this or that kind of game...no reason they can't produce a game you'd like even better than I could produce. They probably understand what's wanted here better than I do. So get them to do the games you want.

 

The opinion door swings both ways. It's not just criticism that has to be taken in context, it's also flattery, reverse psychology, and you name it.

 

If this looked to be some big untapped market then yeah, sure, it'd be worth investing more time looking for a way to make it work. It isn't. If I dug in my heels for every project I ever wanted to do...well I wouldn't writing software today. I have to pick my battles.

 

There was one other small problem that popped up... I was hoping a good game could increase the market for VCS games. There has to be a bunch of people getting to the age where they have more free time and played VCS when they were young. Nostalgic toys are popular and could be even better going forward. But I made a dumb mistake and thought 1980 VCS players were my age and forget to factor in I was 27 then. So really maybe another 15-20 years for that possibility.

 

When I talk about markets I'm talking about end users, not money. If Bill Gates wanted to pay me a $100k to write a VCS game just for him I'd pass. I want products at least some group of people use and like. Makes me proud, like I'm helping out. Money is something that sometimes follows.

[DanOliver]

But please be sure to let us know if you decide to bring the sequel to a modern platform.

This trip down memory lane has reminded me why I never stuck with games too long. Not what happened here, but some other stuff via email. Humans forget the bad and only remember the good. Now that I've been reminded of the downsides I don't see me going back to games. It was a lot more exciting in 1982 when I didn't know crap.

 

I think the idea of a massively multiplayer somewhat-online asynchronous game is interesting!

I thought it would be too. I thought this community was a little more cohesive. Reading more threads put that idea to bed. Probably too small a user base to find more than a couple of people who would want to play together and who could play together. It seems most people play VCS to play VCS type games. People don't want a role playing FreeCell, they want mind numbing playing. If they want to play MMOG they go to other platforms.

 

For what it's worth here's a core dump of some other vague ideas I wanted to explore that anyone is free to use...

 

Morse code to communicate to the user and the user to communicate to the VCS. On screen text is a problem, voice is a problem. Wondered if morse code could work? Of course there could always be an option for getting around actually learning morse code, and that could be part of the fun. And of course morse code could be very simple at the beginning. Numbers for example would take someone about 2 minutes to learn if they wanted. For some people it would be a pretty cool skill to walk away with after playing a game for a few hundred hours as long as it's fun. Clearly some people would hate just reading "morse code" so that's a problem. Goldfish are more open minded than most humans.

 

Not sure if morse code was ever used in a VCS cart as part of game play. For that market back in 1980 I can't believe a company would allow such a game. No chance of working in the mass market.

 

Tons of levels given 32k ROM. It isn't like a game could have 8x the amount of graphics/levels that a 4k game would have. In a 4k game like 3.5k is used by house keeping cores. So 32k - 3.5k = 28.5k completely free for graphics/audio/level data. 28.5 / 0.5 = 57 times more space for graphics/audio/level data. Of course there would be a larger demand on housekeeping, but not a lot more. Say 50 times more in a single game, used well, it wouldn't even seem like a VCS game. You could afford to blow an entire screen budget for just a few seconds of good game play or transition. Could never afford that in a 4K cart. And you could get people to help design the graphics and levels. I see the graphic designs people have done here for labels...lots of top talent.

 

Saving state...Tell the game you want to save state and it would give you a 2 digit code to write down to enter later. Because every cart is custom made a small app could be written to generate a new cart image everytime so the code algorithm could be changed and codes would be unique for every cart. Codes couldn't be shared.

 

The entire concept of one off carts opens the door to lots of different tricks.

 

I'm not entirely sure how Melody works...but from what I read I wanted to try...2k RAM would make more of page zero RAM available. Placing self modifying kernel code on page zero could be interesting. But what I would have explored a lot more and I know works is generating graphics in RAM. Innerspace was limited to 8 or 10 bytes for this but it worked really well for explosions. And later I did more with this on other platforms. If I could have 100 bytes of page zero RAM I think some great and different graphics are possible, never before seen type stuff. And PLA can be used instead of LDA zeroPage,X, so 1 byte opcode instead of 2 and a register is freed up. I thought PLA was faster tha LDA by X but looked it up and they seem the same.

 

And of course executing on the ARM would be a huge advantage. People talk about the increase graphic abilities a lot which are indeed nice, but to me the type of game logic that could be done in the ARM would be way way ahead of anything else. Would allow for "impossible things" to become possible.

 

The VCS was a fun machine. And I do mean "was" for me.

[high voltage]

whatever you're doing or not doing, it is great to have you here on AA and exchanging those great stories of yesteryear. I certainly learned something new about VCS games due to you.