The sad story about my Atari 2600 TV format conversions

[Curt Vendel]

In the mean time...when does the AA store move to it's new shopping format?

 

We are nearly done. Here is a screenshot for your viewing pleasure.

 

..Al

 

Hey! Is that paperbag in the storefront environmentally friendly, made of recycled paper from the overstock of 2600 Pac man and ET cart boxes?!?!?!? :wink:

[mdoerty]

Just some more rambling thoughts on this topic.

 

Has Atari Age approached Intellivision Productions about doing an as needed sale or a special run of their carts?

 

Also, if their thougts about a special run were announced in a more public way, there might be 50 people signing up quickly, especially if they felt it was their last chance to get the carts.

 

As for all the people who Randy "hozed" - admittedly it was probably not a good thing for him to so publically put forth the cart conversions after Thomas had requested they be removed. Maybe he should have made cart burning services available for anyone who brought the ROM to him instead.

 

But I only saw a couple of others remark about similar experiences. And I imagine many more people have had good experiences buying cartridges.

 

I hope that Homebrew developers continue to release their ROMs, even if it is after the sale of their orirginal run of cartridges (which is understandable to protect their value). This is because not everyone can be the first 25 or 50 or 100 to get the cartridges and if you look at list of game-owners, they are generally dominated by the same names.

 

Would I like to see Randy back in business? Yes. I have said so publically.

 

Had I wished he had not been selling the conversions that started this?

Doesn't everyone.

 

Am I going to condone what Randy did? No.

 

Am I going to condemn him? No. Because it is not that much different than what many in this hobby do, and some at much higher prices.

 

Am I glad Atari Age is here? Yes because they are valuable to the hobby.

 

Do I hope Atari Age begins selling protos that were on Randy's site (such as Ebivision)? Of course.

 

Would I like to see Atari Age get license for other games not currently openly available, such as those by Intellivision Productions? I think I said that earlier.

 

Do I hope Atari Age begins catalogs and makes ROMs available for games/hacks that don't have commerical value (many of the older games/hacks that Randy had available)? They probably already do, but if they don't, that would be grand.

 

Maybe my perspective is for the good of the hobby, not the good of any individual -- not that I want to see an individual trampled in the process. But regardless of what you might think or what you feel has transpired recently, Randy provided a valuable servivce to this hobby for many years. He was making homebrew carts available long before there was an Atari Age. Thus I wish he were still here and he will be missed.

 

Mike Dougherty

[Inky]

I just want to say a few things here as I have been relatively silent.

 

I've been on AA for more than a year or so now, and through the conversations on the boards, and through the IMs with the regulars over time, I have made what I consider good friends her. Stan, Moycon, Pitfallaimee, Albert, SDStuff, Miles Tails Prower, Crossbow, CPUWIZ, Bratwurst, the list goes on and on. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt Albert. I have no reason to doubt Alex. I consider them friends, and I believe I can faithfull trust them and that they will never do me any wrong.

 

Randy, I'm making a public appeal to you, as a brother in Christ to come on here and respond to the situation, and am also making a public appeal to re-open the store. This is not an insurmountable situation, and there is still time to get everything in the open and make it right. Remember:

 

Matthew 5:23,24

 

 

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

[Cupcakus]

Am I going to condemn him? No. Because it is not that much different than what many in this hobby do, and some at much higher prices.

 

Mike,

 

I concur with your statements wholeheartedly :-) Except the above statement. Of course he should not be condemned for his actions, but I know of no one else in the hobby that lied to and cheated authors. Until a couple days ago, I never even suspected Hozer of such things. If you can back this statement up with names that would help the community a great deal in deciding whom to deal with in the future.

 

It's understandable that a lot of you don't understand why a great number of us have stepped forward and posted our anger and content towards Hozer's practices. Being a software engineer myself, I know exactly how it feels to have this crap happen to you, and I know the others who are angry with Hozer know this feeling as well. The whole thing is silly, if Randy had just removed the hacks... none of this would have happened... but his arrogance and lies has broken the hearts of a lot of people.

[SS]

I have a theory as to why Randy pulled all his pages. I believe his strategy is to yell and scream about how AA and others forced him out of bussiness with their "lies" and remove all his pages. Now instead of still being in business under intense pressure from the people he shafted he's "supposedly gone" forever. Now you'll notice that people are begining to say stuff like "Gee I miss Hozer", "It's a shame he's gone, I wish he would come back", and even "What a shame that some people forced Randy to close shop". We're playing right into his hand here. He purposely overracted and wants people to feel sorry for him so the community will bag him to come back. I refuse to let him make himself the victim here

 

I hear what your saying here Tempest.

 

Still, it is unfortunate that the whole thing had to turn out this way. I totally agree that Randy seems to have taken the low ground here and could have ended the whole thing quite easily by honoring Thomas’s wishes. On the other hand, however, Randy has been a valuable asset to the Atari community for many years, long before Atari collecting was “in vogue”. Randy should be thanked for the positives that he has provided to the scene. I’ve been in contact with him a few times over the past couple of years and have found him to be polite, professional, and timely in the service that he provided. It seems a shame that these pleasantries were, apparently, not always extended to the people who provided many of the items that he sold.

 

Please, in no way take this as a criticism upon either Thomas or the AA community. Bringing the argument to a public forum appears to have been the last step that Thomas took after exploring other options for many weeks. I support his decision to do so and I think that the general call from the AA community for a Hozer boycott until the issue was resolved was also appropriate. I am saddened that Randy has chosen to end it in this way and I do think that the service that he provided will be missed.

[Chuck Gill]

I just want to say a few things here as I have been relatively silent.

 

I've been on AA for more than a year or so now, and through the conversations on the boards, and through the IMs with the regulars over time, I have made what I consider good friends her. Stan, Moycon, Pitfallaimee, Albert, SDStuff, Miles Tails Prower, Crossbow, CPUWIZ, Bratwurst, the list goes on and on. I have no reason whatsoever to doubt Albert. I have no reason to doubt Alex. I consider them friends, and I believe I can faithfull trust them and that they will never do me any wrong.

 

Randy, I'm making a public appeal to you, as a brother in Christ to come on here and respond to the situation, and am also making a public appeal to re-open the store. This is not an insurmountable situation, and there is still time to get everything in the open and make it right. Remember:

 

Matthew 5:23,24

 

 

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

 

Amen brother Inky,

 

I lurk more than post, but I visit AA almost every day.

 

All dealings I had with Randy have gone well, I have bought several things from him over the years with no problem.

 

He did ask me if he could make and sell copies of Pac-Invaders even though at the time I was still selling the original 25 copies on my site. I said sure, I was always happy when somebody wanted a copy regardless of where they got it. I even encouraged people to make their own. The whole game was an experiment in dissassembly, modification, and reassembly that turned out well. I certainly wasn't expecting to make anything from it.

 

I really would like to see things worked out between Thomas and Randy so that we can all go back to playing games. These guys are both major contributors to the hobby, I'd hate to lose either one.

 

-Chuck

[mactari]

Like I said, in the many years my cart has been sold through Hozer I've never had any cause for complaint. Don't be so quick to judge the guy until you've heard his side of the story.

 

_________________

Crackers

 

Oh, come on! The real Crackers would have said, "I've never had any cause for complaint FROM HELL!!!!" What has the hobby come to? First this mess, then people start masquerading as long-time rgvc posters. I hope Bira Bira visits you in your sleep. :^)

[NE146]

But he retired the "from hell" line I thought..

 

The newsgroup seems to have slowed as of late... you guys need to hang in #rgvc on EFNET

[Cupcakus]

But he retired the "from hell" line I thought..

 

The newsgroup seems to have slowed as of late... you guys need to hang in #rgvc on EFNET

 

OK :-)

[chrisr]

Folks, I would not celebrate too quickly. In fact, this might be a case of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Now there is one less source of carts and many older homebrew carts are suddenly "out of print" unless Randy has a change of heart and brings back Hozer.

 

Should Randy have dropped selling the conversions? Maybe.

But from correspondence with him, on items like that, he sees what he is doing as selling a service. That service is putting to cartridge an avaialble ROM.

 

The conversions were available on the Hacks page on this web site.

 

Someone has mentioned Cubicolor. That would fall under the same rubric using this business model. And that ROM is also on the Atari Age web site.

 

Someone mentioned Activision. It appears that Atari Age is about the only place that removed those ROMs. Other prominant Classic Gaming web sites still have those ROMs displayed. I will not name them to protect the innocent (and to prevent NARCing to Activision).

 

And if you are wondering about the model of selling "service," I have heard that from others before. It is the way that around selling something that you have no legal right to sell (or at least that is what is believed). And almost all 2600 hacks that are being sold fall into that category somewhat (including some on the Atari Age page).

 

That being said, Randy offered some games that I wonder how Randy got the ROM he listed. Obviously, he had very very good contacts, at least at one time.

 

I would like there to be a resolution. Most people here did too. But I don't think they wanted to create a monopoly situation.

 

Where am I now to go to get Pesco? Qb? Simon?

There is certainly a difference between a rom being available for download somewhere and a rom being released to the public by the author, even if they retain ownership, they are granting a license to use the rom.

[Albert]

There is certainly a difference between a rom being available for download somewhere and a rom being released to the public by the author, even if they retain ownership, they are granting a license to use the rom.

 

If you are saying that just because an author releases a ROM into the wild that it is okay for someone to sell and distribute it without explicit permission, you are gravely mistaken. An author retains copyright on a work regardless of whether he or she makes it publically available for free. The author gets to control who is allowed to sell copies of said work. Using your logic, I could legally make CDs of music I hear on the radio and sell them without fear of being sued!

 

Now, with that aside, the issue with the TV Conversions is more complex since they are slightly modified versions of existing copyrighted works. As has been stated many times already, no one is contesting that Thomas has any rights to claim legal ownership of the conversions. The issue is a moral and ethical one. Thomas took the time to make these conversions, and regardless of whether it only took him 10 minutes or 10 days, they simply would not exist if he did not create them. He released them into the public for people to enjoy, and asked that Randy not sell them. Rather than respect Thomas' wishes, Randy basically told him to get lost and that he'd do whatever he wants with the ROMs because Thomas released them to the public.

 

..Al

[Cupcakus]

Chris,

 

Given your replies on RGVC and your replies here it is blatantly obvious you are either too ignorant to see, or simply ignore, the fact that no one has ever claimed Thomas had legal ANYTHING.... Why do you keep arguing Randy's legal case? Did we ever say the conversion sales were illegal?

 

Randy has every right to sell Thomas' games, as Thomas had the right to make them in the first place. That is not the issue. The issue is, if Thomas had not made those games... then Randy could not be profiting from it correct? So Randy DOES OWE something to Thomas... for without him Randy would not have that money in his pocket. What he owes Thomas is not money, or credit, but RESPECT, and your posts backing up Hozer's dissrespect of this author is as Christopher Tumber put it "Pathetic."

 

Imagine you are an artist... and you make a reproduction of a painting and want to sell it. You go through the painstaking work of making your painting an exact replica of the original, and I steal your reproduction, make copies and sell it behind your back. Now you can make no money on your work because I already saturated the market. Was I legally in the right? Yes, or at least just as much as you were to reproduce a copyrighted work in the firstplace. Was I morally right? I guess that depends on your standards of Morals... for you and Randy yes, it was morally acceptable to lie and backstab friends to make the money from your work if it is legal. To me, and the majority of the homebrew author community, that behavior is immoral, dissrespectfull, and down right fucking rude.

 

It is courageous of you to step up and defend Hozer, and I respect you for that, and I'm sorry if I come off hard, but this is not the third grade, and this is not the school yard. You can't pawn his actions off on "letter of the law" excuses. The law does not apply here... human judgement does. And Hozer showed a lack of common sense judgement on this issue.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The issue has always been dirt simple. Thomas said, stop selling my work, I can't force you legally, so please stop out of RESPECT for me. Hozer said F.U., suck a lemon, I am legally entitled to profit from your work, so go preach elsewhere.

 

Who wants to do buisness with someone like that? Not even you and I know it. If you were the author that this had happened to... how would you feel? "Oh! it's OK I just god dissrespected and shafted... because it's legal for him to sell them... I'll just go make another hack so I can get fucked again..."

 

Gimme a break....

[NE146]

But he retired the "from hell" line I thought..

 

The newsgroup seems to have slowed as of late... you guys need to hang in #rgvc on EFNET

 

OK :-)

 

Well I saw you there for all of 5 minutes.. I (and Marco and Godzilla) said hello, then you split! What's up wit dat?

[MegaManFan]

I fail to see why Randy is closing up shop entirely if he is in the "right" here? What kind of defense is that?

 

That's the martyr's defense. Poor me, I'm David and I'm going to be slayed by the AtariAge Goliath! Please someone, give me a slingshot with a really good stone!

 

Actually though, it's just good cover for the fact that he'd have to close anyway, since Activision is probably suing his butt off.

[Paul Slocum]

I guess I'll throw in what I think about it all...

 

I think Randy's way out of line on this one and for me, it's the last straw. There were a couple of times that I was ready to pull my stuff from Hozer Video long before I heard about anyone else having any problems. So I sure hope I don't at some point have to hear about how Atariage has brainwashed me too. Back at CGE when Randy sent me Marble Craze carts with most of them missing a the capacitor, I was pretty irritated. And in e-mails I have seen Randy go off on people several times with little reason and be quite stubborn. But I kept giving him another chance.

 

If you want to use something that someone else worked on, you always have to get permission. It's a good rule to follow. This is pretty well established rule for scans and such. It would certainly not be acceptable to pull all the manuals and screenshots off Atariage and start my own website with them. If Randy feels that the changes Thomas made to the ROMs were so insignificant that Thomas had no claim on them, then the changes should be easy to reproduce and Randy should have made them himself. Randy even said he knows how to make the required changes!

 

-Paul

[mdoerty]

Maybe all of the trouble we are having points to the need for a Code of Conduct for the hobby and its developers. It would of course be optional to follow, but the "seal of approval" may mean much to people.

 

This would include things like:

1. Making copies of games avaialable more than for those who travel halfway across the country for a show. I don't mean by this there can't be special show editions. But the basic game should in some way be made available to those who can't get to these places.

 

2. ROM release -- either simultaneously or after the stock is sold (within six months of release).

 

3. Licensing of a duplication service/cart making on demand. This is essentially what Hozer Video was -- except without the license. That is a valuable service. Not all of us have Cuttle Carts (there are less than 250 of them and more than 10 times that many people registered for these forums, which do not represent those are get there information about the hobby in other places.

 

4. A realistic price strucutre, especially for non-special edition carts. I don't know if the current system is realistic or not. However, I cannot see why a 2600 game should cost three times a two-disk Playstation game. I konw it costs more to make a cart than a CD. But have we gone overboard on packaging that increasing the cost and ads nothing to the game value?

 

It probably is time to move on from this intermural squabbling and look at what can be done that is best for the hobby. Over the past several years, many old-time/old-school collectors (people who started in the "Summer of Carts" of 1995 have left the hobby. Those coming into it have brought with them a different perspective and some much needed enthusiasm. However, there have also been splits into various factions. Maybe Atari Age can help with the healing by developing certain protocols and procedures for people to follow.

[StanJr]

Personally, my boycott of Hozer only lasts until:

 

A. Randy comes forward publicly with sufficient evidence to disprove Thomas, Joe, and Paul's claims.

 

OR

 

B. Randy comes forth publicly and admits his transgressions and makes amends for them.

 

That is all it would take for me to put some faith back into Hozer Video.

 

I don't think anyone wants to see a service like Hozer's wiped out completely. (As I have said, all of my prior dealings with him have been pleasant). But I also think that when RESPECTED members of this community come to the public forum with a complaint, that they are to be heard. And I would LOVE to hear Randy's side of the issue, but until I do, I have NO CHOICE but to accept the story of his accusers.

 

Sorry if this makes me a villain.

[Lost Monkey]

4. A realistic price strucutre, especially for non-special edition carts. I don't know if the current system is realistic or not. However, I cannot see why a 2600 game should cost three times a two-disk Playstation game. I konw it costs more to make a cart than a CD. But have we gone overboard on packaging that increasing the cost and ads nothing to the game value?

 

Sony just might sell a few more copies than the average homebrewer...

[Inky]

I think a voluntary code of conduct is an excellent idea, but who would put it together?

 

It would have to be a forum comprised of a cross-section of the hobby, and then they would have to have the legal wherewithal to pull the seal from someone or some company who transgresses the rules.

 

I would be all for such an arrangement, provided it maintains its integrity.

[Alex]

1. Making copies of games avaialable more than for those who travel halfway across the country for a show. I don't mean by this there can't be special show editions. But the basic game should in some way be made available to those who can't get to these places.

 

We are certainly in favor of this. IMO, special show editions are fine, as long as there is an outlet to purchase a regular edition as well.

 

2. ROM release -- either simultaneously or after the stock is sold (within six months of release).

 

We encourage authors to make a simultaneous ROM release, and we plan to do so with any prototype reproductions we sell. But ultimately that is up to the author and we will respect their wishes if they do not want to release the ROM.

 

3. Licensing of a duplication service/cart making on demand. This is essentially what Hozer Video was -- except without the license. That is a valuable service. Not all of us have Cuttle Carts (there are less than 250 of them and more than 10 times that many people registered for these forums, which do not represent those are get there information about the hobby in other places.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. We do plan to offer one-off custom cartridges for people that make their own hacks or demos and want them on a cart, but the games don't necessarily have the appeal to produce widely and sell in the store.

 

4. A realistic price strucutre, especially for non-special edition carts. I don't know if the current system is realistic or not. However, I cannot see why a 2600 game should cost three times a two-disk Playstation game. I konw it costs more to make a cart than a CD. But have we gone overboard on packaging that increasing the cost and ads nothing to the game value?

 

Price is something that I think will work itself out. If things are too high, they won't sell and the price will come down. We saw that at CGE as very few games sold out. I doubt you will see many $45-$50 games at CGE or anywhere else next year. I think as long as there is a lower cost version of a plain cart and manual, that should satisfy most people.

[MagMax667]

I just read this whole thread from beginning to end. This whole situation really sucks! Randy shouldn't close down his shop! He has responsibilities to homebrewers and his loyal customers to fulfil. If he doesn't bring Hozer back, I hope someone out there will sell all of those older homebrews.

[MegaManFan]

I just read this whole thread from beginning to end. This whole situation really sucks! Randy shouldn't close down his shop! He has responsibilities to homebrewers and his loyal customers to fulfil. If he doesn't bring Hozer back, I hope someone out there will sell all of those older homebrews.

 

I get the feeling that if there's enough demand, someone with the time and inclination who can deal with producers, suppliers and customers more ethically and honestly will step up and fill the void. Until that time, trust in AtariAge, for they shall not screw ye or ye game maker; ye verily.

[Cupcakus]

Maybe all of the trouble we are having points to the need for a Code of Conduct for the hobby and its developers. It would of course be optional to follow, but the "seal of approval" may mean much to people.

 

This would include things like:

1. Making copies of games avaialable more than for those who travel halfway across the country for a show. I don't mean by this there can't be special show editions. But the basic game should in some way be made available to those who can't get to these places.

 

2. ROM release -- either simultaneously or after the stock is sold (within six months of release).

 

3. Licensing of a duplication service/cart making on demand. This is essentially what Hozer Video was -- except without the license. That is a valuable service. Not all of us have Cuttle Carts (there are less than 250 of them and more than 10 times that many people registered for these forums, which do not represent those are get there information about the hobby in other places.

 

4. A realistic price strucutre, especially for non-special edition carts. I don't know if the current system is realistic or not. However, I cannot see why a 2600 game should cost three times a two-disk Playstation game. I konw it costs more to make a cart than a CD. But have we gone overboard on packaging that increasing the cost and ads nothing to the game value?

 

It probably is time to move on from this intermural squabbling and look at what can be done that is best for the hobby. Over the past several years, many old-time/old-school collectors (people who started in the "Summer of Carts" of 1995 have left the hobby. Those coming into it have brought with them a different perspective and some much needed enthusiasm. However, there have also been splits into various factions. Maybe Atari Age can help with the healing by developing certain protocols and procedures for people to follow.

 

A written code of conduct is a great idea, and I would be willing to draft one given suggestions from the community.

 

#1. You are absolutely correct, cartridges need to be available outside of trade shows and conventions so the "rest of us" can buy them... This should definetly be including in such a code of conduct.

 

#2. I believe ROM release is a good idea, but given the current situation that is shakey ground. I don't mind people playing my software emulated or on a Cuttle/Flash cartridge, or even making their own EPROM cartridge. But if the fear still remains that the image may be stolen and sold without my permission... I will NOT release my ROM images to the public.

 

#3. Cart manufacturing buisness needs to be available... however as for now, we only have AA to enlist for that. If Randy comes back, we will have a much better range of options. The homebrewer needs to set up some sort of deal with a cart manufacturer so the general public can have the cart... this goes with #1.

 

#4. I believe prices are realistic enough for now... Cartridges are a bit expensive to work with... but thanks to Joe's PCB's and soon his plastic cart cases, prices may start going down to an even better level. High quality boxes/labels/manuals increasing the price of carts is fine with me. I think it does further the community effort to give the games a professional look. However this is most certainly not a requirement of the cartridge manufacturer.

 

It's good to not have anything to argue with you about for change :-)

[Thomas Jentzsch]

But if the fear still remains that the image may be stolen and sold without my permission... I will NOT release my ROM images to the public.

Maybe that helps changing your mind:

 

I will still continue to release everything I'll do. After this story, everybody is now well aware that the community will not let him go away. My ROMs are safe in public.

[sku_u]

A written code of conduct is a great idea, and I would be willing to draft one given suggestions from the community.

 

It's good to not have anything to argue with you about for change :-)

 

Just out of curiosity, how will the powers that be who run CGE and other shows react to this code? Who should follow this code? Should it be followed by all sellers of used VG's? How would it be monitored? Who would monitor it? Even though this sounds like a good idea on paper, I think creating this code will just create yet another bureaucracy (?sp). Unless there's someone out there who could devote all their time/resources to it.

 

My 0.02