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[Mord]

How does the 7800 community feel about this price point. This isn't a dig on the 7800 gamers, but the 7800 is looked down upon compared to other consoles of its class (NES and SMS just to name the popular two).

 

Given how small the 7800 scene is compared to the NES/SMS/etc crowds, it would seem most that are serious about the console (And know about the XM) seem to be all for it. So much so that a lot of us also jumped on early during the preorder phase to get it at 90 dollars.

 

I won't bother commenting most of the other issues you bring up except to say this: I like the idea that the actual chips are being used in this thing rather than having some modern device emulating them. I don't care if it ended up costing more to go this route. I also don't think the 2151 is out of character for an Atari machine, since Atari was actively using the chip in games back in the 80's. Just because the 7800 had virtually all sound capability axed out originally doesn't mean anything. You might as well just say "good sound is out of character for the 7800." since except for the 2 games that used a pokey chip, you can say the same for almost every 7800 game out there.

[toiletunes]

I don't remember how many were being made in the initial shipment, but there's only 50 or so left. I'm glad I preordered when I did.

Edited January 30, 2011 by toiletunes

[Tubular Gearhead]

@ Malducci:

 

Welcome to this thread, but with all due respect, you have a lot more reading to do before you understand what is going on here (with the 7800 XM). I appreciate that you are just "asking questions" but the examples you are comparing this project to do not have the same goals at all.

 

Without going into depth, it is basically this: The 7800 was a victim of bad timing, choices, management, money, etc back when it came out- we all know this. What really bothers people that are passionnate about this system is that it could have had all the support and hardware tools back then to hand Nintendo and other systems their you know what- but it never happened because of the above reasons.

 

If the point of this project was to simply expand the 7800 as much as possible, as cheap as possible, with today's technology, it could be done- yes. But this project is using old technology to fix the bad design choices- if you want to call them that- from back in '83, and hopefully show people- both those that already love the system and the skeptics- what the system is really capable of. At least that is what I am looking forward to, and hopefully a bunch of new games to boot... The 7800 XM is using stuff that was all (at least mostly, there might be some things to nitpick about) available back in the day- including the design of the case. The whole thing COULD have been released as is back in 1984. The example you have given could not.

 

Just like with old cars or whatever, for some they like to "hotrod" them using only old speed parts that were available back in the day so they have a piece of history, and some people want to "Restomod" using the latest and greatest technology. To each their own- as long as everyone loves the hobby, whatever it is, all is good.

 

If this project had taken that route (latest and greatest technology), I would be FAR less impressed with it, but would have probably bought it anyway (a person would also have no ground to stand on when comparing to what the competition had in 1984). As it is, I think I speak for many here when I say I probably would have paid double for it the way Curt and team are building it.

 

I hope that clears thing up... Just check out all the back story (it is very interesting) and I hope you choose to support the project.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Tubular Gearhead

[lapetino]

@ Malducci:

 

Welcome to this thread, but with all due respect, you have a lot more reading to do before you understand what is going on here (with the 7800 XM). I appreciate that you are just "asking questions" but the examples you are comparing this project to do not have the same goals at all.

 

Without going into depth, it is basically this: The 7800 was a victim of bad timing, choices, management, money, etc back when it came out- we all know this. What really bothers people that are passionnate about this system is that it could have had all the support and hardware tools back then to hand Nintendo and other systems their you know what- but it never happened because of the above reasons.

 

If the point of this project was to simply expand the 7800 as much as possible, as cheap as possible, with today's technology, it could be done- yes. But this project is using old technology to fix the bad design choices- if you want to call them that- from back in '83, and hopefully show people- both those that already love the system and the skeptics- what the system is really capable of. At least that is what I am looking forward to, and hopefully a bunch of new games to boot... The 7800 XM is using stuff that was all (at least mostly, there might be some things to nitpick about) available back in the day- including the design of the case. The whole thing COULD have been released as is back in 1984. The example you have given could not.

 

Just like with old cars or whatever, for some they like to "hotrod" them using only old speed parts that were available back in the day so they have a piece of history, and some people want to "Restomod" using the latest and greatest technology. To each their own- as long as everyone loves the hobby, whatever it is, all is good.

 

If this project had taken that route (latest and greatest technology), I would be FAR less impressed with it, but would have probably bought it anyway (a person would also have no ground to stand on when comparing to what the competition had in 1984). As it is, I think I speak for many here when I say I probably would have paid double for it the way Curt and team are building it.

 

I hope that clears thing up... Just check out all the back story (it is very interesting) and I hope you choose to support the project.

 

Well said!

[tep392]

The 2151 looks like it would be the more expensive part there (assuming it's a single IC package).

 

 

My guess would be the plastic housing due to the tooling cost. Tooling and setup costs are a huge factor in the price of these low volume projects.

 

Perry

[Austin]

As it's been stated, there are a lot of different things coming together in this project, all of that which cost money. It all adds up, and I'm sure the price on the consumer would have been a good bit less if this was done in much larger bulk (say, several thousand units.. a big risk though, mind you). Admittedly I was skeptical of the price at first myself, but having been following this for the last several months (and pre-ordering one myself), I can understand why it costs what it does.

[HammR25]

Tooling alone was around $9,000. A person would have to sell 100 of these at the original $90 perorder price just to make that up. Close to 200 of them have been preordered so far. A few of those were sold at $100. I'd say Curt is close to breaking even now or already has but don't know how much he got screwed over by the one vendor that took his money and vanished.

 

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/167879-expansion-modules-%231-and-%232/page__view__findpost__p__2075839

[DracIsBack]

It's valid question as to why the cost was so high, relative to what was being offered.

 

It was the rude, sneering way and which you asked the question that bothered me. Not "$100 price point surprised me and was higher than I thought" but rather:

 

"$100 for this thing!? Seriously??"

[AtariNerd]

Well, with the special media blasting and polishing to provide a professional grade finish on par with a mass-market production piece, plus the actual per unit costs, it would probably be closer to double that for the case, alone. He supposedly got a discount on the case and face-badges because of the fabricators want for work. Still, Curt is probably just breaking even on those pieces and is still digging into his own pocket for the circuit-boards and components. The project probably needs to sell closer to the 300 mark(with most units having sold at $90, rather than $100) to break even. Given the sell-through, thus far, 300 plus units is a fairly realistic and achievable number for this products near lifetime, I think.

[Underball]

I think mr balducci's post wasn't really out of line at all. He clearly understands the cost of what's being done here. What he's questioning the the value of product given the relativly limited functionality of the added components used compared to similar retor add on projects.

 

And I do think a number of people here tend to vastly overreact to what they might deem to be a negative comment about a project discussion. Most days here it seems that no one here is allowed to disagree with anyone, or youll be labelled ungrateful. It makes it difficult to look at this discussion from an objective, adult perspective.

[Mirage]

I think mr balducci's post wasn't really out of line at all.

 

The way he stated it was. There is sincere questioning, and then there is being rude.

 

 

What he's questioning the the value of product given the relativly limited functionality of the added components used compared to similar retor add on projects.

 

Then he doesn't need to buy it. How hard is this?

[Underball]

I think mr balducci's post wasn't really out of line at all.

 

The way he stated it was. There is sincere questioning, and then there is being rude.

 

 

What he's questioning the the value of product given the relativly limited functionality of the added components used compared to similar retor add on projects.

 

Then he doesn't need to buy it. How hard is this?

So he's not allowed to discuss his opinion on it?

[Tubular Gearhead]

I think mr balducci's post wasn't really out of line at all. He clearly understands the cost of what's being done here. What he's questioning the the value of product given the relativly limited functionality of the added components used compared to similar retor add on projects.

 

And I do think a number of people here tend to vastly overreact to what they might deem to be a negative comment about a project discussion. Most days here it seems that no one here is allowed to disagree with anyone, or youll be labelled ungrateful. It makes it difficult to look at this discussion from an objective, adult perspective.

 

Well, many people have given their opinions about the expansion module and have questioned what is being done. This is not an exercise in how many new modern day features can be built into a 7800 expansion and how cheap can it be put out there. That is not the point of this product, and I think many of the questions are arising because people don't understand why this is being done. It could be done with 4-times the ram, 4-times the power, 4-times the features for a lot less (and built in China). That product needs no retro box. That product needs no special nameplate. It does not need enthousiasts spending all the time to come up with exciting designs for the cartridge labels.

 

This is not emulation or 7800 XM-on-a-chip technology, it is the REAL THING, and super retro-cool.

 

Those that are not into it- don't buy it. Use emulation for everything. In fact, ask yourself why bother with old Atari stuff at all?

[Mirage]

EDIT: forget it, not worth discussing.

[Underball]

I think what some people miss is the difference between actual rudeness and hyperbole for the sake of humor. This place does have a tendency to be overly sensitive and reactionary to what is clearly jokingly toned comments.

 

Y'all need to lighten up.

[DracIsBack]

I think mr balducci's post wasn't really out of line at all.

 

Oh the shock ...

 

Go figure that King Killjoy himself would chime in on this one. Given your long agenda of trashing and attacking this thing at every turn, I'm not the least bit surprised ...

Edited January 30, 2011 by DracIsBack

[Tubular Gearhead]

I think what some people miss is the difference between actual rudeness and hyperbole for the sake of humor. This place does have a tendency to be overly sensitive and reactionary to what is clearly jokingly toned comments.

 

Y'all need to lighten up.

 

I also totally get what you are saying- and boy, it sure does apply to many of the topics on this website.

But you know... yes, everyone involved or waiting patiently on this endeavor is very "serious" about it. I guess that is why so much offense was taken by someone stopping by and asking "Seriously???" when, by reading between the lines, it was obvious that they don't understand "This" project, but maybe only this "type" of project.

 

Anyway, whatever.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Tubular Gearhead

[Mirage]

EDIT: Not worth discussing.

[AtariNerd]

I think many of these new visitors are fairly young people starting out, the new generation of retro-gamers, who haven't lived through that period as many of us have, don't make the emotional connection or see the "value" of these features in context of their history as we might. As such, they may tend to view this from the point of "value of play versus cost". In that context, the NES, C64 are the "best" because of the built-in play experience for the amount of money spent. That coupled with what is available now.. many-fold more Xboxes, Playstations and Wiis from this generation of consoles having been sold than were ever sold in the 2600's life-time, along with their own respective games, we might seem ridiculous to spend so much effort on something that seems to be a marginal product.

 

This will eventually change, of course, as their own favorites are passed by, in time..

[malducci]

It was the rude, sneering way and which you asked the question that bothered me. Not "$100 price point surprised me and was higher than I thought"

 

Looking back, yeah - I probably could have chosen my words more carefully for that statement. But my reaction was frank and honest. There was nothing sneering about it. AA forums are no stranger to frank/honest dialog. And from what I've read over the years, people don't seem to go out of their way to tip toe around with their words when group mentality deems it so (usually anything not atari).

 

I appreciate that you are just "asking questions" but the examples you are comparing this project to do not have the same goals at all.

 

I have an outsiders point of view though. And this addon is similar to other technology offered in other homebrew/console communities. It's only natural to compare. But I really only mentioned two examples because of GB response. I wasn't really interested in having a discussion/debate/etc continuing to compare them. But more of the details and cost of this project.

 

If the point of this project was to simply expand the 7800 as much as possible, as cheap as possible, with today's technology, it could be done- yes. But this project is using old technology to fix the bad design choices- if you want to call them that- from back in '83, and hopefully show people- both those that already love the system and the skeptics- what the system is really capable of. At least that is what I am looking forward to, and hopefully a bunch of new games to boot... The 7800 XM is using stuff that was all (at least mostly, there might be some things to nitpick about) available back in the day- including the design of the case. The whole thing COULD have been released as is back in 1984. The example you have given could not.

 

I figured that it was supposed to be in the spirit of the console and in the context of back then. I wasn't suggesting they add a system on a chip type addon. Just that you can get a much more complicated set of upgrades for less, because of a single chip package. It's still a valid to compare it against such. As in, you could consolidate all of what is listed into a single FPGA package. And maybe they are just doing that (that's another question I asked). If not, I can see the cost adding up to have addition lines and chips for the PCB - as well as having them put on there (assuming they aren't soldering the chips by hand. It's not unheard of though). Now take that, and wrap it around cost. That's where I'm coming from.

 

As far as the upgrade goes, it doesn't look like it couldn't have been done BITD. But a couple of things stand out. 128k of ram really does seems a bit too high/unlikely for 80's addon (and console at that. Ram was pretty expensive back then. Consoles weren't computer systems. The whole point of a console was to play games at a much cheaper cost than a computer), but I didn't really give criticism about it because I'm sure it's something that dev'rs wanted to see - to make the system shine even if it's not exactly realistic for back in the 80's (I understand that side/mentality having done console dev myself and could see the relative benefits of small upgrades). The Pokey (sound) seems fine/appropriate. But the YM2151 definite seems out of class with this system. Hell, the 2151 out classes the Genesis FM chip (even has more channels 8 vs 6 Genesis). It was Yamaha's top chip BITD. That hardly looks like it would have been used in the 7800. The only system that comes to mind that used it in the 80's, was the very expensive Sharp X68000 computer. Actually, I doubt an FM chip would have been used at all (given Atari's history with home consoles, handhelds, and computers 8,16bit, or otherwise). But for the sake of argument, it'd probably be something closer to a YM2203 (3 FM channels, 3 square channels. And commonly used in arcades) and no pokey sound (which wouldn't be a justifiable cost relative to the FM chip).

 

So for this $100 price point, would the cost have been significantly less if the FM chip was omitted from the design (I doubt the ram amount is much of an influence on price, compared to 64k or 32k)? Or a single FPGA package used (again, assumption since I don't know). Would it be possible to get it down to $40-50 and still be a meaningful upgrade for developers? What's the total user base for the 7800? What percentage of people are willing to spend $100 for this addon to play new homebrew, than $50 range?

 

Just check out all the back story (it is very interesting)

Any specific links that standout, that I could check out? Also Tubular, you definitely make some great points.

 

The way he stated it was. There is sincere questioning, and then there is being rude.

 

Well, I tend to be more direct and less pussyfoot. Is it taboo to offer and discuss criticisms anything new Atari development related? I understand people can be guarded/sensitive when it comes to their beloved system(s), but that shouldn't stop people that want to have a valid discussion. Else what's the point of a public forum? Might as well just make it private invite only and strict rules (aka nazi forum style).

 

Tooling alone was around $9,000. A person would have to sell 100 of these at the original $90 perorder price just to make that up. Close to 200 of them have been preordered so far. A few of those were sold at $100. I'd say Curt is close to breaking even now or already has but don't know how much he got screwed over by the one vendor that took his money and vanished.

 

http://www.atariage....ost__p__2075839

 

Oh wow, that's fairly expensive. So the tooling is specifically for the plastic shell? I would have figured something out of china would have been much cheaper.

 

 

 

Mirage: That's your opinion. And it's my opinion that you're being overly sensitive/defensive. I see more and more of this mob type mentality. Either you're with us or against us. And if you're with us, better not question anything or have any criticisms. I'm asking questions because obviously the cost isn't apparent to the work, to me. It's as simple as that. I'm not implying that he's scamming or making hand over fist profits. Don't make it out to be any more than what it is.

 

 

I think many of these new visitors are fairly young people starting out, the new generation of retro-gamers, who haven't lived through that period as many of us have, don't make the emotional connection or see the "value" of these features in context of their history as we might. As such, they may tend to view this from the point of "value of play versus cost". In that context, the NES, C64 are the "best" because of the built-in play experience for the amount of money spent. That coupled with what is available now.. many-fold more Xboxes, Playstations and Wiis from this generation of consoles having been sold than were ever sold in the 2600's life-time, along with their own respective games, we might seem ridiculous to spend so much effort on something that seems to be a marginal product.

 

This will eventually change, of course, as their own favorites are passed by, in time..

 

Maybe that's true, but that doesn't apply to me. I grew up in the 80's playing arcades, computer, and game consoles. I've also coded for multiple systems old systems/handhelds. I'm into leaning/developing hobbyist digital electronic projects (single board computers, external addon or support devices, etc). And of the old 80's computers, A8 is what holds my interest more than the rest (well, more than C64). I love seeing all the new development for the Atari 80's, especially underdog systems to the general public. I admit the most of the original library of the 7800 doesn't particularly interest me, but the new homebrew development definitely does.

[The Usotsuki]

If anyone thinks they can do cheaper, be my guest.

 

Certainly it could be done cheaper with FPGA. But could it be done cheaper with off-the-shelf chips and 1985 tech? Since that's the limiter here.

[Austin]

Ha...

[HammR25]

Tooling alone was around $9,000. A person would have to sell 100 of these at the original $90 perorder price just to make that up. Close to 200 of them have been preordered so far. A few of those were sold at $100. I'd say Curt is close to breaking even now or already has but don't know how much he got screwed over by the one vendor that took his money and vanished.

 

http://www.atariage....ost__p__2075839

 

Oh wow, that's fairly expensive. So the tooling is specifically for the plastic shell? I would have figured something out of china would have been much cheaper.

Yes that's specifically for the plastic shell. Something out of China probably would have been cheaper but I'm pretty sure Curt was trying to keep all the work in the US if at all possible which is pretty commendable.

[Madaracs]

No one appreciates the value of a U.S. made product today. The price of the XM is spot on. It's almost too inexpensive if you ask me. Anyone who complains about the price doesn't deserve one. End of story. Now back to the main topic. . TWO WEEKS left and it's ready! Woot!

[AtariNerd]

No one appreciates the value of a U.S. made product today. The price of the XM is spot on. It's almost too inexpensive if you ask me. Anyone who complains about the price doesn't deserve one. End of story. Now back to the main topic. . TWO WEEKS left and it's ready! Woot!

 

Our Valentines prezzie to ourselves?