Why I prefer emulation

[eseles]

Never have I felt the same way when emulating as I have with playing the real thing. Mostly for reasons that have already been discussed. Even when a rom is pretty much accurate, I still have this lingering feeling that it's not the real thing.

 

I don't even think about emulation these days.

[skaredmask]

From a gamers point of view I like consoles better due to the following reason: (Also I was born in 1982)

 

1. Takes 15 seconds to turn on the console and TV vs 3-4 min for computer to boot.

 

2. Don't have to worry about patches for the older systems vs Emulators where OS patches and software patches and hardware patches that can leave the emulator dead or not working till patch can be made.

 

3. Reliability . I own a Wii and PS3 for the newer systems but most system I own are10-20 years old with no system patches or OS changes or updated softwear hadrware ect.

 

4. Actural seeing games and consoles/owning vs a list with pictures. I personal like to see games that my friends can actraul browse through and say lets play this or cool you have that.

 

5. Saving energy average console use's about 9 volt AC/DC converter and about 15 watts with a crt of around 100-175 watts this is from my Sony trintron GDW FW 9000 VGA monitor 24"(94 pounds of pure viewing pleasure) . Computers use about 250-450 watts common HP and Dell computers. My computer uses about 800 watts and LCD of 80 watts for 22"

 

6. You can only emulate so much. You lose man and mechine relationship like a man and his car.

 

7.Senses like stated above but a little different. If you have ever turned on a old monitor or been at a arcade you can actrual smell the mechines.

 

8.Controllers you can not emulate the Steel battlion controller

 

9.Playing games as they where made to be played. Save states and other emulator options due change the game play insted of the loses it all feeling or I can't belive I won feeling

 

10. Human interactions like Atariage or video game stores or arcades or even at you own house and reason to get out of the house and blow some time.

 

I also use emulators for acrade game's and ect do to the fact I don't have room for acrtaul arcade machines : ( I think both have there use's

I also own a Dos/win9X/winxp computer that I have a bunch of game's for and you can't really emlutate the mouse and keyboard on video game consoles.

 

RANT: I hate how things have become now a days where consumer get ripped off by interactual property vs actraul owning property. Example of this is World of war carft where you actraul don't own anything and have no say on anything but you still have to pay to play or if an online sure there some free online games but if that game changes to the extreme like Star Wars galaxies you have no say. If they ever go offline you can't play it anymore Also I hate how everone talks online now vs being at the arcade and actraul have human interactions.

Edited April 24, 2011 by skaredmask

[Mirage]

Okay, I'm going to drop the bomb: Kaboom!

 

Can't play it via emulation really..or of course you can, but it's 100% un-fun unless you jump through a bunch of hoops.

 

Er, yeah, that's exactly my point (that I was trying to make in a humorous way... fail I guess LOL)

 

But actually, it's the best example I can think of where a game really isn't playable in emulation because it really needs the original hardware to play correctly, and I'm not talking just about the paddle controllers. Original/accurate timing is absolutely critical.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Mirage

[skaredmask]

I just wont to know why people think emulations sounds better? I mean it emulating the sound chips from the console it's emulating. I noticed that sega genny emulators sound/music is why to bassy/muffled and dosen't sound correct in the lightest.

 

I just want to say don't mistake bass for sound/music.

 

Also the Sega genny was able to use PCM aduio. This audio format is still being used today in dvd and blue ray movies so any kinda of improment is actraully not with out compressing or resampling but that would ruin the PCM audio.

 

Sega genny PCM aduio format pressed to the max

 

 

or

 

Edited April 24, 2011 by skaredmask

[skaredmask]

Sorry about spelling errors lol

[RedTank]

Emulators will come and go, but the ROM's will stay the same.

Incorrect. ROM dumps and versions change (IE: MAME) and are rendered incompatible with different revisions. Mainstream OS's, disposable motherboards and chipsets come and go. 95 is not the same as 98. PIII is not the same as PII MMX. PIV is not the same as your iCoreX. ME is not the same as XP, blah, blah, Windoze, Blah... Can't tell you how many Win95 games I own I cannot currently play. And then there's all those DOS games...

 

I decided to test this out. I have an ancient version of MAME32 stored on an old back-up drive, haven't touched it in 6-7 years. Dumped the executable onto my current hardware -- a quad-core Windows 7 machine -- and it runs just fine. Now maybe it won't work with newer games, but the old classics that interest me are there -- many of which aren't available via traditional means.

 

And between Windows compatibility mode and DOSBox I rarely have trouble running my old store-bought PC games like Wing Commander 3 or Ultima VII. Unless your position is that I must play them on a dusty old 486DX to preserve that authentic DOS experience. Nuts to that.

 

I could use a CRT TV or monitor if I wanted, but everything looks and plays just fine on the LCD monitor.

Says someone with lower standards not looking, caring or appreciating a genuine experience. There's a ton of differences in how vintage gaming manipulated and used the color palette and imperfections of NTSC to their advantage that's simply incompatible with LCD technology.

 

I'm beginning to wonder who is more annoying -- downloaders with entitlement issues or rabid collectors who set themselves up as sole arbiters for the hobby and how it must be enjoyed. My nephew was exposed to old Atari games via the Flashback and loved the experience. I play legally purchased PC Engine CDs via Magic Engine because I don't want to shell out $300+ for a TurboDuo -- it will eventually die, but I'll always have a computer. If you're interested in Dracula X but don't want to shell out $100+ for the original (and a means to play it) you can purchase legally emulated versions on the Wii and PSP for a fraction of the cost. There are at least a dozen retro game collections available for the PS2 -- perhaps they're not 100% perfect, but they're close enough for the average gamer to offset the effort and cost of maintaining old systems and large collections of games. None of this sounds like a bad thing to me, even if it's not your cup of tea.

 

Hey... wanna buy some mp3's while you're so happy go lucky? Oh wait, my bad. There's no value in mp3's, you wouldn't spend money on them. Hmm... why is that? lol

 

I buy MP3s via iTunes every now and then, but generally stick with ripping purchased CDs. I also buy games on Steam. Ultimately it's the content that's important, not the hunk of plastic it's stored on. I understand the appeal of playing the real thing on the real hardware -- I still own just about every system I ever bought, and just picked up an Atari 7800. But it's just not practical for a lot of people, especially with CRTs facing extinction.

 

We'll eventually reach a point where your TV won't have any hook-ups in the back, it will all be wireless and cloud-based. What happens then?

Edited April 24, 2011 by RedTank

[Mirage]

 

Incorrect. ROM dumps and versions change (IE: MAME) and are rendered incompatible with different revisions. Mainstream OS's, disposable motherboards and chipsets come and go. 95 is not the same as 98. PIII is not the same as PII MMX. PIV is not the same as your iCoreX. ME is not the same as XP, blah, blah, Windoze, Blah... Can't tell you how many Win95 games I own I cannot currently play. And then there's all those DOS games...

 

I decided to test this out. I have an ancient version of MAME32 stored on an old back-up drive, haven't touched it in 6-7 years. Dumped the executable onto my current hardware -- a quad-core Windows 7 machine -- and it runs just fine. Now maybe it won't work with newer games, but the old classics that interest me are there -- many of which aren't available via traditional means.

 

 

There was no need to "test this out". It's a known fact that roms change over time between versions of MAME. Check out the backlog of rom changelists with each new version that comes out. You may have gotten lucky with some that you tried or whatever, but the fact is that the ROMs do change. Of course, it's not much of an issue to just get the current MAME romset, so... maybe a moot point in that light, but Frank is right, the roms do change.

[NE146]

Okay, I'm going to drop the bomb: Kaboom!

 

Can't play it via emulation really..or of course you can, but it's 100% un-fun unless you jump through a bunch of hoops.

 

Er, yeah, that's exactly my point (that I was trying to make in a humorous way... fail I guess LOL)

 

Uhhh.. no. I was just adding to your point. Not everything replied is a rebuttal you know.

[+save2600]

We'll eventually reach a point where your TV won't have any hook-ups in the back, it will all be wireless and cloud-based. What happens then?

Haha, we'll all be screwed I guess, but the content will be so poor by then that people like me won't actually care to own that kind of tech. Each year that goes by, the TV gets used less and less for modern programming.

 

I edited much of my verbiage today in that response to not sound so abrasive (I was having too much fun last night), but you copied it too quick! lol I have no real beef with the OP or anyone that chooses to emulate. Just offering up some different aspects to think about while trying to maintain a sense of humor. Doesn't always translate well in these types of posts though.

 

Re: MAME though, since the late 90's, I've experienced several times where I've needed to download a different ROM set before she'd work after an upgrade to hardware OR MAME itself. This just happened most recently playing MAME on a MorphOS machine. A handful of my old dumps simply would not work. Had to download either the latest dump or an older one that happens to only be compatible with a certain version of MAME. Williams' Robotron comes to mind. Anywho, I'm sure peoples mileage will vary - always does, just speaking from my experience.

 

Re: older PC gaming on modern PC's... there was a stretch of time before patches were made available. It was during this stretch (late 90's, early 2000's) that I became disenchanted and ditched the PC scene altogether. Sounds as if today, people with more patience for messing around are having better luck getting their stuff to work. Great. Only older PC game I'd care to play anymore might be Destruction Derby (DOS) or Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds (Win95). A patch was finally released for the WotW's shortly after XP came out, but by then, I had lost interest in all things PC wise.

 

 

[Mirage]

Okay, I'm going to drop the bomb: Kaboom!

 

Can't play it via emulation really..or of course you can, but it's 100% un-fun unless you jump through a bunch of hoops.

 

Er, yeah, that's exactly my point (that I was trying to make in a humorous way... fail I guess LOL)

 

Uhhh.. no. I was just adding to your point. Not everything replied is a rebuttal you know.

 

Fair enough, I wasn't really sure if my original statement was clear, that's all. My humor goes past a lot of people a lot of the time

[RedTank]

I edited much of my verbiage today in that response to not sound so abrasive (I was having too much fun last night), but you copied it too quick! lol I have no real beef with the OP or anyone that chooses to emulate. Just offering up some different aspects to think about while trying to maintain a sense of humor. Doesn't always translate well in these types of posts though.

 

Fair enough, I guess I should lurk more before I post. Like others I went through my "wow" phase with emulation and moved on. Still, I think it's a nice alternative when games are otherwise unavailable, or licensing issues rear their ugly head.

[skaredmask]

. Only older PC game I'd care to play anymore might be Destruction Derby (DOS) or Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds (Win95). A patch was finally released for the WotW's shortly after XP came out, but by then, I had lost interest in all things PC wise.

 

 

I can make this happen : )

[mbd30]

Atari, Sega, and Neo Geo are the closest. Most of the others fail horribly at emulation.

 

 

The SNES is probably the most accurately emulated system, thanks to byuu's obsession with perfect accuracy. But you need a modern CPU to run BSNES at decent speed. http://byuu.org/bsnes/

 

ZSNES is the emulator that most people use and it's horribly dated.

[Reaperman]

These days, I use real hardware almost exclusively except for commercial compilations. I used to be pretty heavy into emulation (GB, c64, and neo geo especially), and then I spent a good bit of time using it to try-before-buying. Now I just go to youtube to have a look at them first.

 

The reasons I have for giving up emulation are numerous, but here's a short list (all of which I'm sure have been mentioned here before):

• The console is part of the experience. Flipping switches, the character of the buttons, the sound of a spinning drive, etc.
  
• Original joysticks are an even bigger part of the experience, and the character of the system itself.
  
• Emulation input feels laggy. There is more between the controller and the game using a PC, especially on older systems. I'm not sure there's a great way to measure it, but my hands tend to 'sync up' better on real hardware.
  
• Even today, some emulation has not properly figured out colors, sounds and framerate. (sometimes framerate isn't good enough, other times it's 'too good')
  
• The little extras. The smell of a newly opened game, the feel of the texture on a cartridge, etc.
  

 

However, I do like the jukeboxing effect of having hundreds of games to choose from sometimes. To counter that weakness in real hardware I tend to go for multi-carts, flash drives, or hard disks whenever possible. It costs a lot more, but it means that I get to stay with real hardware which is important to me. It also means that I get to push the original hardware hardware than was ever intended, which is an idea I enjoy immensely.

 

Emulation has it's fans for a reason though. It's easy and free.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Reaperman

[mbd30]

Anyone else do almost all of their PC gaming on emulators? I still have integrated graphics on this PC because it still works fine with most emulators, and I don't really care about modern PC games with all of the related hassle and bloat.

 

I use a Logitech dual action controller. It's fine for games that don't require ultra-precise control (eg. the original "Burger Time" or "Donkey Kong" on MAME). I've beaten games such as "Crash Bandicoot", "Super Metroid" and "Donkey Kong Country 2" with it.

[VectorGamer]

 

I persent for the court the following pieces of 'evidence':

 

 

5) Can use a nice modern large gaming setup with superior sound and options, even on a LCD monitor.

 

 

LCD is crap. Resolution, lag time, blockiness, etc. Vintage gaming is not meant to be played back on LCD screens.

 

Emulation is only "cool" when testing or trying something out short term. Nothing will ever replace the real thing, played on real controllers, viewed on real TV's or monitors. Ever.

 

Damn skippy. I have ten cabinets in my small basement arcade: 4 of those are original arcade hardware, 5 are running MAME (three of which use an LCD monitor, one uses a TV and the other a VGA monitor) and the other is a 60-in-1 JAMMA with an arcade monitor.

 

LCD monitors and VGA monitors look like crap. If I had the resources I'd replace all my MAME cabinets with the real thing but I don't have the money or space. Some of the games on my 60-in-1 are also on my MAME cabinets and I'll play off of the 60-in-1 because of the better graphics.

 

If you put an Asteroids arcade cabinet with a vector monitor side-by-side with a PC running MAME Asteroids you'll see how bad modern displays look for retro gaming.

 

Although, on LCD, vector games look much better than raster games. You can fiddle with the beam width and intensity settings along with gamma correction to make it look better than the default settings.

 

 

 

Where emulation generally will always fall short for me though is a lot of classic arcade games.. with physical attributes (e.g. visual hardware, lights, & controls) that just obviously can't be emulated. But that's another story. And yes I'm aware of the artwork options in Mame, but that's a far cry from an actual piece of painted plexiglass.

 

If you throw a retro gaming party, which of these will give your party goers a woody:

 

A genuine Tron cabinet with all the lights, artwork, the right monitor and controls

 

or

 

A PC sitting on a table with an LCD monitor and an X-Arcade controller?

 

 

 

 

 

So, in response, if I'm playing a real game, with a real controller, and on a real TV, what's the difference, I ask you? Especily if I don't care about ownership but just want the 'high' of the game?

 

 

If you can get that "high" with emulation, than it doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks.

 

But personally, I get much more enjoyment out of the "real thing".

I like to be able to hold a cartridge or cd, and the system.

I'm looking at my Sears Super Video Arcade right now, and there is a certain amount of pride of ownership and joy that comes with owning and using the real thing.

 

 

 

7.Senses like stated above but a little different. If you have ever turned on a old monitor or been at a arcade you can actrual smell the mechines.

 

9.Playing games as they where made to be played.

 

 

 

[*]The little extras. The smell of a newly opened game, the feel of the texture on a cartridge, etc.

 

 

 

Totally agree. I like the smell of 80s wood whenever I walk into Richie Knucklez Arcade or in my Retrocade.

 

And it's not just about arcade for me. The only emulation I do is MAME. Any console gaming for me is on the real thing. There's no fun in downloading ROMs but there is when going to gaming expos or buying carts from peeps on AA to fill holes in your collection.

 

 

 

It all gets pretty abstract, the feelings a person has for thier game collections. YES, I could buy a Colecovision "multicart" with everything on it in one shot. But I would be missing out on the full experience.

 

I bought a Vectrex multicart and sold it because it just wasn't the same as owning the individual carts. It's more fun (because of the authenticity) to have a Star Castle cart and overlay on the Vectrex.

 

 

6) Can play over the internet with friends.

 

10. Human interactions like Atariage or video game stores or arcades or even at you own house and reason to get out of the house and blow some time.

 

That's a huge difference between gaming today compared to the arcades of the mid-to-late 70s and early 80s.

 

Richie Knucklez said it best (paraphrasing from memory):

Sitting on the couch, drinking Red Bulls and sweating playing Xbox ain't me, man. Going out to the arcade, socializing, gaming and having a good time with friends - now that's me.

 

And that's how it was BITD. The arcade wasn't just gaming - it was about hanging out with friends, meeting chicks and talkin' smack.

 

My son and I went out to Richie's this past Friday. It was great to see my son hook up with other kids his age (complete strangers) and play some two player games together. That's what we did BITD.

 

So all of us (including myself) that bitched and moaned about having arcade graphics in the home back in the early 80s got what we wanted. There are many other factors, but we also had a hand in putting arcades on the endangered list.

[Petran79]

I would compare emulation to this.

 

Imagine that you have a vast library of old movies (silent cinema mostly) and you can access it any time for free and watch it with restored quality on your TV.

 

Sure the cinema is the best experience and those movies were meant for it. Plus you can not really judge a movie unless you've seen it on the cinema.

 

But for the vast majority of people who missed that era or can not find a screening of these old movies, a VHS, DVD, Streaming or Broadcast are the only option and source of knowledge.

 

Also a lot of NES and SNES ROMS were hacked in order to be playable and had not much to do with the real cartridge.

 

But there are advantages like playing translated and unreleased games from Japan.

 

Anyone else do almost all of their PC gaming on emulators? I still have integrated graphics on this PC because it still works fine with most emulators, and I don't really care about modern PC games with all of the related hassle and bloat.

 

I use a Logitech dual action controller. It's fine for games that don't require ultra-precise control (eg. the original "Burger Time" or "Donkey Kong" on MAME). I've beaten games such as "Crash Bandicoot", "Super Metroid" and "Donkey Kong Country 2" with it.

 

 

I use that controller too though the right stick has some orientation problems sometimes. Also I use an arcade looking joystick, assigning the keyboard keys for buttons. Also a 6 button gamepad is handy. I used to have an old Microsoft Sidewinder joystick which was very good, but due to USB it cant be used anymore.

 

There are two sides of emulation. One is to play the old games accurately that are hard to find or not available or so cheap that official vendors do not gain any profit. Or make translations of unreleased or censored Japanese games.

 

The other is to play the newest games without the need to buy them.That emulation is more popular. This emulation uses speed hacks, hacked or modified roms and is not accurate. Today Wii emulation falls into that category and PS2 emulation too though to a less extent. Also some older arcade games years ago (Neo Geo games like the new King of Fighters and Metal Slug, Zinc and Callus95 emulator etc) or today (Taito X2 hardware). Though I must say that I am impressed at the extent of PS2 emulation.

 

without the second side emulation would not be that popular today, except maybe the translation part. It certainly helped to boost the interest in emulation

 

I use both sides though the latter mostly only to see the extent of emulation rather than to play a full game when graphics and CPU reach boiling points.

[eseles]

Also there's things like the Virtual Boy. Unless they've made some strange 3D ability for emulators, I doubt you're gonna' have the same experience.

 

Paddle controllers? Can you play Breakout exactly how it was meant to be played?

 

For the arcade lovers, can you play Centipede with a track ball?

 

It's new, but the DS seems like a good example of the hardware being a core element of the gameplay, that would be very difficult to replicate. The 3DS even more so...

 

If I'm wrong about these points let me know, I'm not too 'in the know' with emulation these days.

 

It comes down to this for me. Let's say you HAVE a rom on an emulator, ready to boot on your compy, let's say it's Double Dragon. You also have a perfectly working 2600 woody and a boxed copy of Double Dragon, with two perfect-condition original joystick controllers, all hooked up to your (non HD/LCD) TV. You decide you're gonna' play some DD. Which one do you go to? Pretty sure it'd be your console.

 

I understand not wanting to waste so much cash on owning the original hardware. But if you do have the spare money, and care about the experience enough, than it's a no-brainer why you'd choose to own the console over an emulator. This is why there is collectors. Collecting brings a sense of value and reward. There's something magic about taking a newly bought console in to your house, plugging (and sometimes, tuning,) it in for the first time, and giving it the first whirl.

 

Forgive me if this makes little sense. I'm quite tired.

[Smatchmo]

I have a few problems with emulation. First and foremost emulation makes it too easy to overlook games. When everything is free you have no reason to play a game until you "get it."

...

 

For me this is one of the big reasons why I'm just not a fan of emulators. I didn't really get into 'em until I picked up a DS flashcard, and while the ginormous smorgasbord of classic gaming it provided was very cool at first, I quickly become overwhelmed by the sheer number of choices. I'd fire up an NES emulator, play Duck Tales 2 for a few minutes, quickly get bored, move on to Super Dodge Ball, get bored with that in minutes, move on to that fun-sounding rom hack of this game, get bored in minutes, move on to some Famicom games, get bored in minutes..... I could feel it sapping my attention span and it just started to feel like I was doing some sort of masturbatory-like exercise compared to the sex that is gaming on the original consoles.

 

That and I just really like carts. Games on discs or played through emulation feel... unnatural to me. A game not on a cart is a game without a soul. I'm odd like that, I suppose.

I do use emulators from time to time though, but mostly to try before I buy a game or for MAME & SCUMM stuff.

[CGQuarterly]

I also don't care for this being billed as a "Collectors vs. Gamers" debate. It should be a "Discriminating Gamers vs. Gamers who don't mind a sterile, approximated experience". I am a gamer more than a collector, but emulation doesn't hold a candle to the real thing.

 

Chris

[Underball]

I also don't care for this being billed as a "Collectors vs. Gamers" debate. It should be a "Discriminating Gamers vs. Gamers who don't mind a sterile, approximated experience". I am a gamer more than a collector, but emulation doesn't hold a candle to the real thing.

 

Chris

Or you could more accurately call it: "Collector snobs who look down their nose at inferior gamers" vs. "People who like to play video games and don't get all hung up on insane details that only those with OCD would notice or let ruin their fun playing games."

 

Note I am putting a smiley face here to denote hyperbole for humors sake. :-)

Edited April 25, 2011 by Underball

[Austin]

Or you could more accurately call it: "Collector snobs who look down their nose at inferior gamers" vs. "People who like to play video games and don't get all hung up on insane details that only those with OCD would notice or let ruin their fun playing games."

 

+1 for that, Underball.

[CGQuarterly]

I'm not a snob at all. I just don't like the implication that if I'm not cool with emulation, then I must be a "collector" and not a "gamer". That's a bunch of crap. I LOVE playing old video games, and for that very reason I want the genuine experience. Someone (not me) might argue that if someone were fine with just playing old games through emulation, they aren't that in to old games.

 

Chris

[mbd30]

Is it that big of a deal that an emulated version of a game is not the exact same as the original? If you can have fun with eg. a very imperfect console port of "Donkey Kong", you should be able to enjoy an emulation that is like 99.9% faithful to the original title with some minor difference.

 

Admittedly some games crash or are otherwise unplayable with certain emulators. It would be annoying to get pretty far in a game and then have it freeze due to faulty emulation or bad ROM image. That kind of thing can sour someone to emulation.

[Underball]

I'm not a snob at all. I just don't like the implication that if I'm not cool with emulation, then I must be a "collector" and not a "gamer". That's a bunch of crap. I LOVE playing old video games, and for that very reason I want the genuine experience. Someone (not me) might argue that if someone were fine with just playing old games through emulation, they aren't that in to old games.

 

Chris

and some people resent the implication that if some 30 year old game isn't played on the original hardware, that experience is ALWAYS inferior and the mark of someone who doesn't care.