Why are Apple II users "different"?

[Ken Gagne]

 

a lot of people feel the same way. That's why a lot of apple books have been lost.

 

To me, recycled = lost.

 

These days, we have plenty of technology and methods for preserving both hardcopy and digital. I don't see the value in going with a destructive option when we don't need to.

 

-Ken

[dudeslife]

 

To me, recycled = lost.

 

These days, we have plenty of technology and methods for preserving both hardcopy and digital. I don't see the value in going with a destructive option when we don't need to.

 

-Ken

 

the content is what matters. there are a few in my collection that I will use alternate means, but I'm sitting on a ton of apple books that I have gathered the past few years because there was very little pdf preservation of third party books in the apple community (the whole reason I started this thread)

Edited September 11, 2014 by dudeslife

[Ken Gagne]

I agree that these publications need to be scanned and preserved in PDF format and appreciate the efforts of anyone willing to do so. But again, I don't see why that means the destruction of the original.

 

I don't have anything more to contribute to that stance that hasn't already been more eloquently and comprehensively expressed by Jason Scott.

[dudeslife]

I agree that these publications need to be scanned and preserved in PDF format and appreciate the efforts of anyone willing to do so. But again, I don't see why that means the destruction of the original.

 

I don't have anything more to contribute to that stance that hasn't already been more eloquently and comprehensively expressed by Jason Scott.

 

I understand. I started this quest three years ago and decided to wait until I had reached what I thought was the end before I made any decisions on scanning/destroying. The technology is still not accessible to the everyday man to scan glue bound books without destroying them. Now I can just sit and stare at these books (like most apple users seem to be doing) denying new members to the community the chance to read some of the original texts from the 70s & 80s or I can make an awesome omelette by breaking some eggs. When I have come across tomes in binders I have of course preserved the original. This unfortunately will not be the case with these Apple II books.

[Ken Gagne]

Have you asked Jason to scan them?

[dudeslife]

Have you asked Jason to scan them?

 

didn't the link you just provided have Jason stating the same "glue bound must be destroyed to be scanned" argument as I am making?

Edited September 11, 2014 by dudeslife

[Ken Gagne]

That blog post was written years before the Internet Archive provided Jason with a book scanner.

The technology to scan glue bound books without destroying them may still not accessible to the everyday man — but Jason is not an everyday man.

-Ken

[dudeslife]

 

That blog post was written years before the Internet Archive provided Jason with a book scanner.

The technology to scan glue bound books without destroying them may still not accessible to the everyday man — but Jason is not an everyday man.

-Ken

 

 

I am sure Jason has enough on his plate without me shipping a crate of books too him. We all need to do our part in the preservation of the written word. We have discussed this before, even on your podcast. I am relatively new to the apple II community so I don't really have that "nostalgic" link to the Apple II. I saw a need three years ago, and set out to help where I could. It may be a little painful in the short term, but long term it will be worth it. That said, I will find a way to preserve the rarest of the originals. After all, I am not a complete savage.

Edited September 11, 2014 by dudeslife

[Keatah]

Is it not possible to carefully disassemble a book so that it may be scanned by technology accessible to all? And when scanning is done can it not be re-assembled or re-bound? Perhaps in a way more durable and better than the original. Maybe it could be converted to hardcover? Or maybe "amatureishly" put into some kind of 3-ring binder/folder thing? Report covers? This would make the "destroyed" copy much more readable and less prone to future damage. Nothing need be thrown away.

Having been around since before the era of the home computer revolution, I do indeed have an attachment to my original manuals and all that. The handwritten notes and pictures and comics.. You know.. I won't be ripping them up anytime soon. And that decision is built around nostalgia and remembering the good times. I don't give a rat's ass how rare or not they are, or if they have been scanned yet or not. But if copies of my prized material come up fleabay, and it's not in the best of condition, and it's cheap enough, and I have time, sure I'll pick it up for scanning.

 

And when I'm done you can rest assured that I won't throw it away. Actually I don't care if you care or not. It will get converted or re-bound into a slightly different "formfactor" that is more conducive to coffee table reading. Or stacked away till a time that that will get done.

 

I also need to comment that the scene has done a good job overall of preserving existing material. Apple II or otherwise. Sure there's some bad scannage that doesn't seem to have an appointment for a makeover. But that's maybe 5% of everything? And the stuff continues to trickle in today. There is so much material out there one could just pick any 8-bit ecosystem and spend years absorbing and learning. Beginners have literally a small truck's worth of reading. It really sickens me to hear people complain there isn't enough information. Fucking get real! We're drowning in it! Back in the day we learned Applesoft Basic and 6502 Assembler and DOS and all the inner workings of the hardware with less than 10 books. FUCKING TEN BOOKS! YOU GOT THAT? TEN! And a couple of magazines here and there for relishing in the icing on the proverbial cake. And we were thrilled!

 

What is more worrisome is that the people that appreciate this material as valuable and as part of history are beginning to die off. No joke. That's (obviously) the reason behind more paraphernalia showing up in estate sales.

 

In the meantime I'm going to go review some new scans on my iPad.

[dudeslife]

I also need to comment that the scene has done a good job overall of preserving existing material. Apple II or otherwise. Sure there's some bad scannage that doesn't seem to have an appointment for a makeover. But that's maybe 5% of everything? And the stuff continues to trickle in today. There is so much material out there one could just pick any 8-bit ecosystem and spend years absorbing and learning. Beginners have literally a small truck's worth of reading. It really sickens me to hear people complain there isn't enough information. Fucking get real! We're drowning in it! Back in the day we learned Applesoft Basic and 6502 Assembler and DOS and all the inner workings of the hardware with less than 10 books. FUCKING TEN BOOKS! YOU GOT THAT? TEN! And a couple of magazines here and there for relishing in the icing on the proverbial cake. And we were thrilled!

 

lol, you are still as clueless on this subject as you were 3 years ago when I started this thread. Of the big 4 retro (commodore, atari, tandy, apple), the apple community has been the most embarrassingly negligent in preservation of the written word.

[Ken Gagne]

 

I am sure Jason has enough on his plate without me shipping a crate of books too him.

 

He disagrees.

 

 

 

We all need to do our part in the preservation of the written word.

 

Yup. And shipping him books would be your part.

 

Preferring not to collaborate with someone who has the technology, passion, and mission to assist with this project — and whose day job is to do exactly that — would seem consistent with the Apple community's perceived historical tendency to jealously hoard its treasures and not share them, which led to this predicament in the first place.

 

-Ken

[dudeslife]

 

He disagrees.

 

 

lol awesome! will send him the books I was going to send to 1dollarscan.

 

>> Preferring not to collaborate with someone who has the technology, passion, and mission to assist with this project — and whose day job is to do exactly that — would seem consistent with the Apple

>> community's perceived historical tendency to jealously hoard its treasures and not share them, which led to this predicament in the first place.

 

collaboration was never an issue. I thought he would be too busy with the massive projects he has going on. The last thing I want to be is consistent with the Apples community's well earned historical tendency to hoard its written treasures and not share them.

 

Thanks Ken.

[Ken Gagne]

Great! I look forward to the fruits of your collaboration. Thanks for acquiring, holding onto, and sharing those documents!

[Keatah]

Maybe if we can figure out why they hoard the stuff then we'll be a step closer to solving the issue.

[david__schmidt]

Don't ascribe to malice what can be sufficiently explained by apathy (or forgetfulness). I doubt anybody is actively hoarding things with an intent to deprive others. That's a silly thing to suppose, and a silly thing to do.

 

That said - I can only speak for myself. Any books I run across I send to Mike Maginnis for scanning. He has shared everything I have to share:

http://www.apple2scans.net/

[dudeslife]

To the newcomers in the thread, I started it 3 years ago because I wanted to know why the Apple II had no site like the 3 I list below. The apple II probably has 2x the 3rd party books of the other 3 retro machine categories, yet they barely exist in pdf accessible to people new to the community. There is only one reason for this.. So here, 3 years later not a lot has happened, more third party books have been lost..

 

Atari

http://www.atarimania.com/documents-atari-400-800-xl-xe-books_1_8.html

 

Tandy

http://www.retrocomputing.net/parts/r/radio/TRS80_4/docs/trs80-bk.htm

 

Commodore

http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/books.htm

[dudeslife]

oops

Edited September 11, 2014 by dudeslife

[david__schmidt]

To the newcomers in the thread, I started it 3 years ago [lamentation because Apple II doesn't have a bombjack site]

 

Yes, I've read through the thread. And I've formed a pretty firm opinion of you. I too wish we had bombjack, et. al. - even the atari sites have some Apple II books that no Apple II site carries. But... I would wish, in vain surely, that you kindly STFU or contribute something tangible. Contributing to thread necromancy does not count. I look forward to your sending your hoard to Jason.

[dudeslife]

 

Yes, I've read through the thread. And I've formed a pretty firm opinion of you. I too wish we had bombjack, et. al. - even the atari sites have some Apple II books that no Apple II site carries. But... I would wish, in vain surely, that you kindly STFU or contribute something tangible. Contributing to thread necromancy does not count. I look forward to your sending your hoard to Jason.

 

Im cool with your opinion of me, tiptoeing around rarely accomplishes anything. but I did not necro bump the thread. someone else raised it. which is good because when I started it I believe Jason had joined archive.org just a few months before. Now he is in a great position to help. so continue to sit on your hands, and goodness will arrive.

Edited September 11, 2014 by dudeslife

[Keatah]

Don't ascribe to malice what can be sufficiently explained by apathy (or forgetfulness). I doubt anybody is actively hoarding things with an intent to deprive others. That's a silly thing to suppose, and a silly thing to do.

 

Right. It isn't hoarding out of malice. Hoarders are hoarders for many other reasons. I don't think "preservation for the community" is even a thought with them. You can hardly fault a lamp post for not getting out of a speeding car's path. It just doesn't occur to them or the lamp post.

 

Admittedly in the past (distant past) I have kept things off the repositories because I knew they were not out there and not on ebay and I was the only one that had it. And I had delusions of grandeur of Steve Jobs and Mr. Woz coming over to my house to revel in my so-awesome collection of 300 baud bbs warez. And by keeping this stuff to myself the price would undoubtedly skyrocket. Heh heh heh??

 

But that is no longer true. Hasn't been for 20 years. My only reasons why it isn't online yet is because I don't have a decent scanner. All the scanners today are cheap-o CMOS with zero depth of field. The old CCD units would handle up to 1/2 inch of depth - more than adequate to get around some book curves.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Keatah

[Osgeld]

inaction via excuse (and a pretty poor one at that) while in the complaint pile that there is no one bending over giving you fresh documentation.

 

funny aint it?

[Keatah]

I said it before, I'll say it again. I'm quite thrilled with the fact that I can visit a tiny handful of repositories and get something new every time. I think we should stop bickering and just continue making it happen with whatever can be contributed.

 

Some of us may scan material once every 6 months, once every year, some not at all. It doesn't make a difference, as long as it gets posted and hosted.

 

Having classic material online has been invaluable with my archive project and supporting my collection, not to mention retro-programming and just plain old reminiscing. And especially education for the newbies. Though passing the torch turns out to be harder than it sounds.

Having said that, I demand MOAR! IMMEDIATELY! RIGHT NOW!

[Arbee]

The likes of A2DP and apple2scans.net (and apple3.org) have been infinitely valuable for me bringing up old cards in MESS and settling obscure technical questions (if only there was an "Apple III Circuit Description"). I occasionally get a bit giddy about what's already available, and of course if more's on the way to Jason so much the better.

[david__schmidt]

The likes of A2DP and apple2scans.net (and apple3.org) have been infinitely valuable for me bringing up old cards in MESS and settling obscure technical questions (if only there was an "Apple III Circuit Description"). I occasionally get a bit giddy about what's already available, and of course if more's on the way to Jason so much the better.

 

And bless you for your work on the /// core in MESS. It's invaluable.

[Keatah]

I'd love to see the Apple Cat II w/212 expansion card and the Hayes MicroModem II w/Microcoupler emulated. I don't know what info you need but I have the hardware, software and schematics are available on the major repositories.