I think I know why so few Atarians like the A8 AND ST equally.

[atarian63]

st a ford and Amiga a bmw,funny funny... more like the ST was a Lincoln,(nice but not a caddy) and the amiga not being ready for prime time was like a 70's Jag, nice but full of problems and more expensive.

ST really was revolutionary at the time, a color mac for 1/3 the price, faster with a color screen to boot!

As for bilitter.. who cared or even knew what one was back then. It was faster than a mac,and cheaper and very very capable and played excellent games! where a pc of the day was a work box only. not much fun to be had there.

[oky2000]

Jack gave us the 130XE so I suppose we can at least be thankful for that, although it likely would have arrived regardless due to natural evolution.

 

The other consideration re ST is that for a time Jack was banking on having his hands on the Amiga chipset. So there's every chance that Atari was working on the other stuff like DMA and GLUe, then suddenly had to expand on what they had at the last moment.

 

I suppose if you consider the timeframe, and especially dev times for complex OSes back in the day, you can't expect too much more than what he delivered.

 

It's entirely feasible that if he'd known 100% from the word go that he wasn't getting his hands on the Amiga chipset that the ST they initially released would have been better, probably being closer to the STe at least from the bare hardware (graphics especially) point of view.

 

True but then there is always the possibility that maybe even with 18 months notice the best they could have had manufactured in improved design specs would probably have been a blitter chip and the rest stay the same as original 'Jackintosh'.

 

The ST in 86 even now down to £450 for the STM+disk drive bundle was still a tough sell, certainly not an impulse buy like the 65XE or a C64 for £199. £575 in 1987 for Amiga 500 was probably like a gaming PC rig today costing £2000 or £1000 laptop. No company can rely on top-end hardware sales and I bet Atari couldn't have relied on something costing almost as much as an A500 in 1985 let alone 87. And remember Commodore had the Amiga chipset fabricated at cost in house with MOS Technologies. Another resource and advantage Jack couldn't count on anymore (as well as a very fat bank account from 1982/83 at Commodore)

Edited October 21, 2011 by oky2000

[oky2000]

st a ford and Amiga a bmw,funny funny... more like the ST was a Lincoln,(nice but not a caddy) and the amiga not being ready for prime time was like a 70's Jag, nice but full of problems and more expensive.

 

Erm there is nothing wrong with a Ford in Europe. On Top Gear UK when reviewing the BMW 320 from 2008 they summed up with there is not a huge difference in quality of vehicles so get the Ford Mondeo. They did say the extra money if you are a real enthusiastic driver is where the cost of owning a rear wheel drive car makes the difference, but 90% of the time behind the wheel you won't miss the extra tuning.

 

Ditto with ST vs Amiga. The custom chipset for a gamer makes a huge difference but other than that for the general home computer purchaser not cutting edge game playing addict it made no sense to pay the extra for that extra special technology.

 

I don't think you have read all of my comments in context, that's what I was saying and I also said early Amiga games of this mid 80s era were ST ports running 12% slower than the original ST game (because they were all using the same 68k 8mhz source code from ST on the 7mhz Amiga...so the Amiga chipset wasn't even accessed except maybe for music/SFX....hence unless you had a specific creative/home computer use for those features like Digi-View + HAM mode = waste of extra money). BMW M3 was the ultimate Yuppie car, wasn't the fastest though....that was a Ford (the giant killing Sierra Cosworths!)

 

Maybe US Fords are shit But in the UK they are a class act these days since Focus and Mondeo and sell on quality not just price.

 

OK for international non EU people substitute Volkswagen for Ford*

 

(Caddy is a boat out of water with an inefficient power/litre producing engine, and so is a 70s Jag....can't see the point you are trying to make because you have picked two cars with old technology and shit chassis technology )

[Rybags]

Not all Cadillacs are that bad/primitive.

 

The CTS actually handles - of course it took someone else to do it for them.

 

The chassis/suspension was done as well as any mainstream foreign car. Sure, the engine is based on the old pushrod design but still does well in the power/economy stakes.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Sigma_platform

[oky2000]

Not all Cadillacs are that bad/primitive. The CTS actually handles - of course it took someone else to do it for them. The chassis/suspension was done as well as any mainstream foreign car. Sure, the engine is based on the old pushrod design but still does well in the power/economy stakes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Sigma_platform

 

I assumed mid 80s Lincoln/Caddy vs 70s Jag

[atarian63]

you have a point there on ford euro vs ford us. You guys get the better deal

I agree with your take here. I think it was a situation that no hobbist was really happy about. Very twisted. US is all about brands and brand loyalty,kind of like teams. Your choice is an affirmation of what that brand represents,be that tech,status or whatnot. The whole Atari Commodore switch made for one confusing mess. Though to be fair lots of cool products came about in those years.Most Atari customers never wanted a commodore and Vice versa, though there were some that owned both and for them it was about the software. One sad thing they mostly all eventually agreed on, buy a pc..

[Rybags]

Outside the US, Ford makes great cars.

 

Ford US has a mixed bag, the Mustang is great but aging looks and it desperately needs more modern suspension.

 

If they had half a brain, they'd let Australia design their large cars, Europe the mediums, and a mix of Japan/Euro for the smalls.

[oky2000]

I think most of us ended up with PCs for two reasons....

 

1 Acorn/Commodore/Atari went under.

2 Macs were expensive and pre-OS X also not that nice to use.

 

Possibly also in the US (not EU) the success of that putrid NES shrunk the market for computers for gaming at home, and IBM clones had semi serious use sewn up in the US market demographic (again not in the EU, where Commodore and Ataris were welcomed with open arms as an alternative).

 

It is a shame because I am sure, regardless of actual machine you adore, none of us will ever get that joyful feeling when we used our <enter machine of choice> at the time it was current and selling in shops.

 

I don't spend anywhere near as much on games now, and a computer is just a tool no more interested in it beyond it working than the condition of my socket set for servicing my car!

 

I still remember when it was an absolute joy to use a computer and you looked forward to doing so after school or after work.

 

Mind you I also remember the dark Sunday evening when parents packed away my VCS/C64 until next Friday, ready for the new school week filled with yet more rubbish homework lol

Edited October 21, 2011 by oky2000

[Rybags]

I don't like Apple, never really have.

 

Sold the Quadra I had as a retro machine (which got maybe 8 hours use in 6 years) about 18 months ago, I don't own anything made by Apple and don't particularly plan to.

[atarian63]

Same here, no ipods,iphone whatever. Always been kind of anti apple.

Oki is right about the thrill of just using a computer being gone. PCs are just a tool.That time and excitement is forever gone, was glad to have experienced it though.

[AtariGeezer]

I love all my Atari's, A8's and ST's...

 

They were a great learning experience in programming for me, besides playing games on

Learned basic, forth and 6502 assembler on the 800 and the ST taught me 6800 assembler, pascal and C#...

 

I wrote a few programs on the ST for Express BBS ST, FTU the "File Transfer Utility" that patched into the original BBS program replacing it's file section and I was the original author of the Script Language Decompiler (never should've released that code!)

 

I first got a 520 and upgraded it to 1 meg and added the overscan mod to it, later got a 1040 and upgraded it to 2 meg and added a Vortex 286/386 board to it when I was in Germany, plus the overscan mod in that as well...

 

The ST's were my first experience with using MIDI, went out and got a new CZ-101 just to play the midi songs, it was really cool, plus it helped to refresh my memory on playing a keyboard

 

Jay

[Welsh Wizard]

To honest I have 520STFM's 1040ST's 1040STE's 130XE's and a number of 800XL's the 800XL was before JT and are all working fine, 130XE's all require new matrix mats on the keybords as the one on mine are crap and I have lots of missing letters, the ST's I am fed up with repairing the floppy drives and the power supplies, and find I struggle to keep them going at times.

 

So given the half a chance I will always pick the 800XL's over the ST's ( also I have a large selection of mods added to the 8 bit range plus a reasonable supply of software, and going back to square one with the ST is not the greatest thing to have to do.

[sack-c0s]

I'd have an ST if one was to come my way cheap, but to be honest I got my 'pure CPU power' fix from the Archimedes and the 'games machine stuffed with custom chips' fix from the Amiga. Only thing I really used the ST for back in the day was during music lessons as a sequencer.

 

At the time the ST looked to me to have the cons of the Amiga (68k CPU, pain in the ass planar screenmodes) but without the pros to balance it out.

 

But that's just me - I just like hammering graphics hardware registers more than the 'pure computing' side of things.

[UNIXcoffee928]

The only Apple product that I use & endorse is the Apple Newton Messagepad 2100. Only the 2100, mind you. Blacksheep of the Apple product-line, ha, but designed by the same people who brought us the "Lisp Machines". Be sure to get one with a fresh backlight. Very innovative OS, and a really great machine... highly recommended.

 

Well, a shiny jet-black early 80s Jaguar XJS 12 cylinder is nothing to scoff at, and it looks very cool. As you might imagine, I'm partial to the shiny jet-black / black leather 8 cylinder, water-cooled, 5-speed Porsche 928. If ever there was a car that appeals to hackers, the 928 is a great pick... perfect layout, and easy to work on. Made back when the name "Porsche" meant something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud2cctCbTik

 

Personally, I keep all of my sockets in perfect shape. I wipe them down with WD-40, put them back in order on a Craftsman socket-tree, and store them in a 2 gallon ziplock, after use. A really good trick that I came up with is this: Wrap yellow electrical tape around the cylinder of the socket, and use a medium Sharpie marker to write the socket-size (ex: 10 mm) down, then cover the yellow tape with clear scotch tape, to preserve it. Makes it super easy to see what socket you're looking for, even in low-light conditions. I think that once you start buying the larger, expensive sockets, that's about the time that you start caring a lot about them, lol.

[flashjazzcat]

I'd probably use the ST if I could get hold of one of these:

 

 

[potatohead]

This actually has been a great thread. Interesting to read what people think about 16 bit computers.

 

I personally really liked the ST and Amiga computers, but for different reasons. The Amiga is a custom chip playland. Lots of fun effects possible. And it could do things like the Video Toaster, creating a whole new desktop industry. Brilliant. The ST could be a nice, fast Mac, and I knew several people who did exactly that too. Price differences made that a great reason to own a ST. Built in Midi was simpler than the Amiga video wizardry, but it was just as brilliant, creating another little industry, with bands all over the place using ST machines to do electronic music. I saw those computers as part of music setups well into the 90's. Holz made that cool music input device too. Always wanted to play with that setup.

 

For me personally, I had to walk away from 16 bit computing, stuck in PC land professionally. 8086, 286, 386 boxes used in various manufacturing related tasks, some running DOS, and some running Xenix. Right when things were picking up in PC game land, I jumped to high end IRIX, not returning to PC / older computers until somewhere around 2000, and then slowly.

 

I missed out on enough 16 bit computing that I can't really make the investment to "discover" them now, and so I just ignore them, preferring to go way back to the 8 bit roots, where I honestly had the most fun. Today, that's Atari 8 bit, CoCo 3, Apple //e, all three of which I owned and used hard up through 1990. Funny thing was my move to the PC meant home computing and gaming just happened on the 8 bitters, instead of a 16. In late 90's, for example, I had a PC. Crappy one too, with 5 MB of RAM, not 4, not 8, but 5, and the 8 bitters to work with. Would go online with the PC and Apple, gaming on all of them, programming on the 8 bitters mostly.

 

I wanted a ST more than I did the Amiga, because I spent time on one and had friends who owned them. By the time that could happen, the PC had grown enough to demonstrate where the money was going to be, so it was 8 bitters for retro fun, and the PC / UNIX for the longer haul.

 

Today, I've got the 8 bitters covered, the PC is useful but no real fun, and the micro-controller scenes reminds me of the late 70's, early 80's computing time, which is a lot of fun. People running CP/M, emulating this and that, building up their own little machines. Lots of fun, and recommended.

 

You know, if I could step away from professional work, and just split up time between family, play and travel, I would love to go through the 16 bit era, just forget about modern computing and take the machines to the limit for fun... Until I get lucky enough to do that, 16 bitters take more head space than I have to give.

[Charlie_]

It didn't have to be the absolute best to NOT SUCK. Once again, you're not a computer, so this isn't a "binary" issue of this one rules and the other absolutely sucks. Now that we're not 15 years old - and we're adults - perhaps we can entertain this type of moderate thought? Perhaps not? My sympathies to those who can't muster it.

 

I don't think your being too critical. I thought your post was great and I really like the above quote.

[UNIXcoffee928]

Hey! Don't fracture the Illusion, lol, being here at Atariage is a nice simulation of being 15 FOREVER, ha.

[akator]

I think one of the reasons 8-bit computers in general get more love is their comparative simplicity. It's much easier to fire up an 8-bit Atari, Apple II, or Commodore and have fun than it is with the later 16-bit machines. I still love the old Macs, STs, and Amigas but in my experience they are more difficult to maintain and get immediate enjoyment from. I want to minimize my time putzing with an OS and drivers, and in that arena the 8-bits win hands down.

 

As far as Tramiel goes, I don't see him as significantly different from any other industry-changing businessman. There are just as many horror stories about Gates and Jobs, only they were more effective at dealing with public relations than Tramiel. These are people with different morality than most of the general population, ruthless bastards that would do anything for success. We should probably be thankful that they were business dictators and not political dictators, since at least in business they managed to contribute something to society instead of destroying it.

[oky2000]

I like how this thread is going

 

Interesting point about 8 and 16bit retro computing. I too spent almost 50/50 doing creative things and playing games on my Amiga and ST it's true. Programming too thanks to great things like STOS and Blitz Basic etc. And whilst the excitement of seeing if you got the lighting spot on for capturing a still in Digi-View whilst it calculated the 16 HAM base colours per line SLOWLY will never be replaced by plugging my digital camera into my PC and double clicking on a JPEG it is still possible to do similar things so I guess you miss it less. Less fun but possible. Playing Battlefield 3 is nothing like playing Beach Head 2 nor is playing Forza comparable to completing Lotus Turbo Challenge 2 etc.

 

And by contrast, except for maybe the year before I got my ST, I didn't do anything more than a bit of programming (not very good....have you tried CBM BASIC Poke-a-thon sloth?) so my memories are 90% loading screens, loading music, playing games. So I guess it is easier as a hobby on the 8bits. I still haven't found a Digi-View for my original Amiga 1000 so I can't really do that other fun stuff.

 

I think also 8bit computers were much better programmed. The complexity of getting the ST to max out the 68000 to make arcade games was a unique skill, and the Amiga chipset was so horrendously complex to extract even 75% efficiency required more skill than most software houses had access too. Also who the hell was going to sample all those instruments? Many games used stock soundtracker sample disks gahhh.

 

I can appreciate not everyone is trying to own one of everything. All I would say is go in the other thread from your favourite machine and ask people for game suggestions and fire up an emulator. I did that with the A8 because I knew people here had a much broader idea of A8 gaming gems than I had.

 

If we help each other I think we can see the merits of the 'other Atari' we overlooked, and that is what forums are best for I think. Show inexperienced new users what they missed out on and we can all do this by pointing out great programs both on A8 and ST to each other

 

Re: disk drives on ST. This is a constant problem for Amiga users too, hell I even have an Archimedes A3010 I can't use because the internal 3.5" disk is kapput and I don't know if like Amiga you need a specific drive/model or you can swap it out for a PC 1.44mb disk unit as a straight swap. I bet there are just as many knackered C= 1541 and Atari 1050 drives out there. I have two disk drives for my C64 and one for A8...need to get a spare at least for parts!

 

Off topic - As for the Porsche 928......yes please! One car (along with the BMW 850) I just have to own before I can't drive enthusiastically anymore. Manual gearbox, silver paint work, black leather! (Chase HQ music playing on stereo inside whilst driving and Miami Vice style pastel single breasted suit optional LOL)

[Bryan]

I owned many ST's up to the Falcon030 so I participated in the slow decline of Atari. By the time it was over, I was completely burned out on the ST and I've never recovered.

[UNIXcoffee928]

...

Off topic - As for the Porsche 928......yes please! One car (along with the BMW 850) I just have to own before I can't drive enthusiastically anymore. Manual gearbox, silver paint work, black leather! (Chase HQ music playing on stereo inside whilst driving and Miami Vice style pastel single breasted suit optional LOL)

Pastels? Nah, you're thinking Ferrari 308 or Daytona... A 928 is more like owning your own jet fighter plane or star-fighter... New-wave post-apocalyptic cyberpunk, ala Blade Runner is the way to go, fashion-wise, ha. Seriously, though, get one, you will never want another "mere-mortal" car, after you drive a stick-shift 928. As it is a GT, it is also a very safe, practical car that you won't die in, unlike most sports/other cars... right up there in safety with the old Volvos. Plenty of luggage space, and very good passenger space. Inexpensive to purchase & maintain, nowadays. Tons of enthusiast forums, parts companies, & tech pages on the web, too. The style was so futuristic, at it's introduction, that it still looks "Modern". Buy one, you will love it.

[Ross PK]

The ST has a lot less soul and character than what the A8 has, for me.

 

Plus, there were so many great games on the A8, whereas it was hard for me to find anything I liked on the ST. And I do prefer the 8-bit graphics of the A8 over the ST's graphics.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Ross PK

[+remowilliams]

Wow. I'm kind of surprised by all the anti-ST vitriol in this thread.

 

I'm not surprised at all. Though having this in the A8 section is bound to skew from the start.

 

The ST for me was magic the first time I saw one, and since I didn't have wealthy parents or a trust fund it was the only way I was getting into the 16bit era. I will never forget what the machine gave me and allowed me to do during its time as my primary computer. Much the same way I feel about my time with my A8.

 

I owned many ST's up to the Falcon030 so I participated in the slow decline of Atari. By the time it was over, I was completely burned out on the ST and I've never recovered.

 

Though I certainly may have drooled a bit at the Falcon, I jumped ship at the ST line. In retrospect, I've never regretted that decision.

[+DarkLord]

Well, I started out with an 800XL, and I loved it. Used it for many, many things. When the newer 16bit machines came out, I looked at them. It only took one look at the $1500 Amiga with no monitor to make me turn away, despite the impressive hardware. I picked up a 520ST, floppy drive, and monitor for less than half that price. I continued to use my 800XL alongside my ST for years. They are great little machines. But more and more over time, I was able to do greater things with my ST. The newer models of the ST just made the choice easier.

 

Games on the 8bits are great. But the first time I played Dungeon Master on the ST, well...that was it - never looked back. (although I did/do play games on the 8bit out of nostalgia!).

 

Durability. I've heard a lot of talk of the "cheapness" of the ST line, and how they don't last. Well, I guess I'm the exception to the rule then. My 1987 Mega ST is still going. Has its 2nd power supply, but original mouse, keyboard and floppy drive that all work fine. My 1989 STacy has had one component die, the original 20meg hard drive. My Falcon had to have the onboard battery replaced. I do have a few problems with the floppy drive on my Mega STe. I think its going South. I believe that's a pretty fair track record for these machines. Everyone's mileage sure seems to vary on this.

 

I actually owned a handful of Amiga's, but only used, and when I could catch them cheap. As far as cheap construction goes, I think the A1200 was very cheaply made. Hated that on/off switch on the power supply brick on the floor. I had an A2000 - thought it was ugly. Of all the Amiga models I've owned, oddly enough its the A1000 that I like the best. Maybe its that recessed keyboard well, or the signatures on the underside of the cover, or the fact that it actually does seem to be quality construction.

I didn't like the original OS though - too slow and buggy.

 

Anyways, just to sum it up, I love my 800XL, and I love all my ST's. I don't draw a line between them and say, "here are the 2 computer manufacturers that I supported in the 80's". No sir, I've got my 800XL, Mega ST, STacy, Mega STe, Falcon, Jaguar, and you know what? They are *all* Atari's... 'Nuff said.