I think I know why so few Atarians like the A8 AND ST equally.

[+wood_jl]

....or you'd have ended up with a machine like the Commodore 128 that got NO SOFTWARE SUPPORT for the new features (rue the day with backward compatibility), or like the Apple IIgs that got (comparatively, to predecessor) little software support. Both were eclipsed by the next-gen. An upgraded Atari-8 would have been, the same. People will dream otherwise, forevermore, however.

[Thorsten Günther]

st a ford and Amiga a bmw,funny funny... more like the ST was a Lincoln,(nice but not a caddy) and the amiga not being ready for prime time was like a 70's Jag, nice but full of problems and more expensive.

 

Erm there is nothing wrong with a Ford in Europe.

 

BMW M3 was the ultimate Yuppie car, wasn't the fastest though....that was a Ford (the giant killing Sierra Cosworths!)

 

Maybe US Fords are shit But in the UK they are a class act these days since Focus and Mondeo and sell on quality not just price.

 

OK for international non EU people substitute Volkswagen for Ford*

 

Even VWs are overhyped in the USA, IIRC (and I don't know how anyone could even consider buying a BMW, they have not quite the image of being premium brand here, as many older BMWs are owned by young immigrants - but then, most taxis and busses are Mercedes-Benz in Germany). They are considered run-of-the-mill here in Germany and I consider them overpriced - I am not a fan of cars anyway, so should I ever need to buy one, I would buy one from PSA (Dacia Logan MCV or Citroën C1, e.g.), a Korean built Chevrolet, a Kia or a Fiat Panda, or anything else costing less than EUR 10,000).

 

And that was exactly the point of the ST: "Power Without the Price"! While I hate the choppy scrolling of early (or badly programmed) games, I instantly fell in love with "Starglider" and was overwhelmed by the title screen of "The Pawn". The price tag alone made many customers buy an ST instead of an Apple, the GUI made them prefer an ST over a PC (although GEM was bundled with several PCs in the late 1980s). And even though the Amiga 500 became kind of usable in 1988 (Kickstart 1.3), there was hardly any professional software for Amiga except for video effects/titling purposes, mainly due to the fact that it had not flicker-free monitor.

 

And to give you an idea of the prices of computers back then: a C64 with 1541 cost about DM 900 in Germany when this series of German Atari adverts offered the 520STM with SF354 and STM1 for DM 998.

 

Thorsten

[Bryan]

The best upgrade path they could have provided for the 8-bitters would have been a beefed up Antic/GTIA replacement with more abilities, and a better audio system, ideally an 8 voice Pokey and the Amy chip. And more RAM, and possibly the 65816.

Problem is, you'd end up with something that would have overshadowed the ST in many respects, taking possible sales away.

 

Yeah, the ST happened because of the technology vacuum at Atari when Jack took over. There hadn't been any meaningful work on an updated A8, and it was easier to go back to the drawing board (especially after the Amiga acquisition fell through).

 

The 65816 wasn't available until 1984 so it was really too late to hold off the 68000 which was available in 1979. Had there been a better 6502 in, say, 1982 we might not have had such a rapid abandonment of the existing 8-bit platforms (at least in the US where support for the A8 dropped considerably between 1986-87).

 

The biggest problem was that Warner/Atari didn't have a good R&D focus and their technology fell behind. Obviously it's easier to make new plastic than new chips.

[+bf2k+]

Bought my ST in '86. Sold it in '87 - 'nuff said.

[Master Phruby]

I started out with an Atari 400 and then upgraded the keyboard and memory to 48k. It was basically my upgraded video game console. When I couldn't afford to buy new games, I learned to program via all of those type in articles from Analog and Antic magazines. I got an Indus GT to store stuff since the 410 program recorder never really stored stuff correctly. I bought a modem and learned about the fantastic world of BBSs. I found lots of pirated games there. That machine was the best! It finally died from a power surge and I bought a 130xe. This machine gave me lots of room to program and I learned Action! and Assembly.

 

I then moved into the ST computers. I loved the new interface but ST Basic sucked. I went to GFA Basic and C to design desktop apps. I never really programmed it for games even though I did try STOS. It just wasn't the same. But I really liked designing desktop apps. I liked NeoDesk and the desktop publishing aspect. It was also cool to have a hard drive to store all my code. My main cheerleading thing with the ST was that I could do everything the Mac could do but cheaper. However the downside was the ST would have hardware failures more often. I must have bough ten floppy drives. I upgraded machines as more memory and more features came out or the machine died. It was just hard to find places to buy new software. No one sold Atari computers anymore. The only place around was Federated and their support sucked ass. At that point, I gave up at cheerleading for Atari and just bought a 486 to do school work. To this day, I don't cheerlead for companies anymore since Atari let me down.

 

Recently, I've gotten back into playing A8 via a great ebay find of a XEGS. I'm looking at finding more cartridges for it. I also have the emulator up and running until I can find those old games again. Overall, I just think I just learned more from my A8 machines that I did from my STs. I'm just happier seeing those old games again. I think the ending of Atari and it being associated with the ST colors my feelings toward playing with them again. The 8bits were a happier time. Jack & Sam pretty much destroyed Atari for me and the ST with it.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Master Phruby

[flashjazzcat]

I really liked designing desktop apps.

Tell me you still do - your services may be required.

[Gunstar]

I know I always prefered the ST for it's great racing games, like Lotus and test drive and F1 (VROOM!), etc., even for Out Run. And also for all the psuedo 3D shooters, like Space Harrier. But now that such great games are finally starting to make it to the A8, and good conversions too, like Space Harrier and the upcoming Out Run...even if they aren't quite up to snuff with the 16-bit versions, they are good enough to make me forget about the ST and Amiga for a while.

Even having Commando and Crownland help to forget about the great scrollers/platformers on the 16-bitters. But even without all those games, the A8 is first in my heart becuase it was the first real computer I ever owned (after the ZX81). I love almost all the 8 and 16-bitters, minus anything PC-like...never a huge fan of the Mac either, but I'd always take it over a PC.

Edited November 15, 2011 by Gunstar

[Master Phruby]

I really liked designing desktop apps.

Tell me you still do - your services may be required.

 

Still do. That is what I do at my company. It does sound fun to write something again for the 8bits.

[Retro Rogue]

I think the ending of Atari and it being associated with the ST colors my feelings toward playing with them again. The 8bits were a happier time. Jack & Sam pretty much destroyed Atari for me and the ST with it.

 

Completely different Atari's though. Jack's Atari Corporation was birthed out of the destruction of Atari Inc. and a different set of needs. The market was different, the times were different, the needs were different....

[emkay]

Bought my ST in '86. Sold it in '87 - 'nuff said.

 

Hehe... The ST lasted almost 18 months, then it turned into an A2000

[Master Phruby]

I think the ending of Atari and it being associated with the ST colors my feelings toward playing with them again. The 8bits were a happier time. Jack & Sam pretty much destroyed Atari for me and the ST with it.

 

Completely different Atari's though. Jack's Atari Corporation was birthed out of the destruction of Atari Inc. and a different set of needs. The market was different, the times were different, the needs were different....

 

Right that is why my feelings toward the ST are less than they should be. However my 8bit is still a wonderful thing to me.

[atarian1]

I think that the reason for the split is that people are nostalgic for the computer they grew up with. I do not think most people (maybe we should do a poll) grew up with both an a8 and an st.

 

Huh?! Where did that come from? I guess you did not live through the late 80s (or were too young or didn't follow the computer industry) because that is absolutely NOT true! Virtually everyone I knew who had an Atari 8-bit wanted to upgrade to an ST. This includes personal friends and the 400+ members of the local Atari user group. There was a small group who still stuck with the 8-bits, but most wanted to upgrade. Over the years, it's been the same story I've heard over and over again. Many 8-bitters upgraded to the ST.

 

Had Atari emulated the a8 on the st, things might have been different.

 

There was the XFormer that allowed you to emulate an 8-bit on an ST.

[oky2000]

....or you'd have ended up with a machine like the Commodore 128 that got NO SOFTWARE SUPPORT for the new features (rue the day with backward compatibility), or like the Apple IIgs that got (comparatively, to predecessor) little software support. Both were eclipsed by the next-gen. An upgraded Atari-8 would have been, the same. People will dream otherwise, forevermore, however.

 

The C128 in reality, as far as improving C64 gaming, was about as significant as 800XL to 130XE. Same sound, if you want TV display you need to use identical VIC-II so the only time you can run CPU @ 2mhz is when the display is blanked out. So 25% of the time on top and bottom border being drawn ie 1.25mhz effectively!

 

This meant even if you wrote 100% dedicated C128 game that could display on TV/1701 monitor apart from 64kb extra RAM it would be little different to running the C64 version. That's why there are so few C128 games. As for a non games machine how could any sane person pick the C128 keyboard at £350 over a £400-450 520STM keyboard? Both run CP/M sure but ST was one of the nicest machines for serious/creative use bar Amiga 1000 in the 80s, and that cost 50% more for base machine.

 

Lovely high build quality machine the C128D plastic case model (one that looks like Amiga 1000), use one for coding C64 stuff

[Shannon]

I started out with an Atari 400 and then upgraded the keyboard and memory to 48k. It was basically my upgraded video game console. When I couldn't afford to buy new games, I learned to program via all of those type in articles from Analog and Antic magazines. I got an Indus GT to store stuff since the 410 program recorder never really stored stuff correctly. I bought a modem and learned about the fantastic world of BBSs. I found lots of pirated games there. That machine was the best! It finally died from a power surge and I bought a 130xe. This machine gave me lots of room to program and I learned Action! and Assembly.

 

Recently, I've gotten back into playing A8 via a great ebay find of a XEGS. I'm looking at finding more cartridges for it. I also have the emulator up and running until I can find those old games again. Overall, I just think I just learned more from my A8 machines that I did from my STs. I'm just happier seeing those old games again. I think the ending of Atari and it being associated with the ST colors my feelings toward playing with them again. The 8bits were a happier time. Jack & Sam pretty much destroyed Atari for me and the ST with it.

 

I think your first and last paragraphs pretty much summ up my experience with Atari. When the ST came out however I was a bit dissapointed with the sound and the lack of a built in basic, among other things. I think when people say "soulless" I think that compared to the 8-bit the ST just seemed so bland. Sure with a bit of work the 680000 can push alot of objects around. But just the whole overall "package" was, well, just bland.

 

That being said in retrospect I can say that JT did about as well as can be expected under the circumstances. And the ST certainly did have it's purpose. I personally jumped on the Amiga bandwagon after my cousin brought his Amiga 500 over one day. The guy was always getting the good stuff first!

 

In fact I liked the Atari 8-bit and Amiga so much out of those two systems I probably had the most machines.. At one point I think we had 3-4 Atari 8-bits and Amiga's in the house. Two 800xl's, a 130xe, and I think a 65xe. Amiga 500, Amiga 2000, and the Amiga 1200. I did pick up a 1040 ST FM later one but the poor thing never did get much use. I was too busy with my other machines. At that time the 386/486 we out and VGA was hitting the scene.. Doom had pretty much taking over. It was a changing world.

[sack-c0s]

I really liked designing desktop apps.

Tell me you still do - your services may be required.

 

Still do. That is what I do at my company. It does sound fun to write something again for the 8bits.

 

How many of us still feel like we're doing the same kind of thing we loved doing with our 8-bit machines?

 

I still get to hammer the hardware registers of graphics chips and obsess over cutting down instruction counts here and there (not to mention windbg doesn't really feel any better than my old action replay on the C64) so for me it feels like the more things change the more they stay the same...

[oky2000]

.......it feels like the more things change the more they stay the same...

 

Not really because my 520STM or AMIGA 1000 didn't need 10 minutes to recover from being left idle all day when I started to use it when I came home unlike P.o.S. Windows

Edited November 16, 2011 by oky2000

[DracIsBack]

It's been really fun to read this thread.

 

I have to confess, I loved both the Amiga and the Atari ST back in the day. At home, I had an IBM PC with the bleep sound and at school we used black and white Mac 512K devices.

 

it was the same for my friends.

 

So when the Amiga and Atari ST showed up with their flashy demos, GUI interfaces, multi-media capabilities (toaster on Amiga, MIDI on the ST), I was enthralled with both ... especially when you considered what they compared to. Forgetting how they compared with each other, they both had things that just looked and sounded awesome compared to the PC and Macs I had to use. I still remember seeing the "Space Ace" demo for the ST and one of the Amiga demos and being blown away.

 

I did have A8s ... 800XL to play on originally, then later 130XE and XE Game System. One of the things that bugged me about the A8 was that - as versatile as it was - a lot of games just didn't show it off well. yes - there were cool demos. Yes, there were some cool looking games. But often, many games looked really primitive on it. Some of it was the ease of getting certain visual results (vs. say C64); some of it was the "1-programmer does everything" approach of many games instead of the Programmer+Artist+Musician team approach.

 

I know it can produce games like this:

 

 

But back in the 1980s, a lot of what I actually saw looked more like this:

 

 

And as a rule, C64 games often looked better to me ... even if it was a case of poor efforts on A8 that were behind much of the difference.

[_The Doctor__]

I hated the dosboxes and then wintel boxes at the time... The Atari 8 bit was so much better, I enjoyed the megaSTE and TT030, loved the AMI, and settled down with a Falcon030 at the end. The two Amigas kept dying on me for whatever reason... so I gave up on em. The 8 bits all still worked save a 130XE that died of electrical storm causes. The tt030 was a dream and I still wish I had one today. The Falcon.... well the very first thing I had to do was drop in the math co processor and install the higher speed crystal. once that was done it kind of grew on me a bit. I really wished for the Falcon to be everything the TT was plus all the Falcon goodies. Eventually add ons came to that end.

Pagestream was our DTP workhorse at the time... Cal and Pap came later. I miss the days of being able to get right to work... not waiting on the OS for everything.....

So at home it's A8, Falcon, and wintel laptop now.

Edited November 16, 2011 by _The Doctor__

[Bryan]

And as a rule, C64 games often looked better to me ... even if it was a case of poor efforts on A8 that were behind much of the difference.

 

Yeah, but it takes a long time to produce something like Crownland and the tools were limited. The strength of the C64 was that you could get decent looking results without advanced programming tricks. Programmers just didn't have much of an incentive to put twice the hours into the Atari version. I think programming the Atari is rewarding simply because of what you can do if you're clever, but I understand why simple ports don't come out very well.

[Mclaneinc]

I had an ST for one day, I'd played about with them but didn't like what I saw but being the sort of 'must own all machines' guy I was then I brought one of a company called Computer House, ran by people I knew. Got it home, hated it from the second I used it, spent all night trying to convince myself to keep it and then gave it back the next day.

 

Computer House, a company ran by 2 rip off guys..

 

Later on I got an Amiga, loved it from day one, would still use one today if I had the hardware, lovely OS..

 

So yes, its an odd thing, 8 bit lovers not so in love with the ST

[doctorclu]

Why was I not more into the ST?

 

1) When the ST came out, I was a teen and didn't have the money to jump into the ST line. The first year, based on what others told me, sounded really exciting though.

2) When I had money for the next computer (1989) there was no real mention of Atari being around in the states.

3) When I did get a ST/TT (1999-2000) the local user group folded up and were actually kinda rude. But I later figured that was just a group that was tired after 15 years of being around.

4) Ocurance above tainted my feeling of the ST and the years that followed I moved my ST collection to others that would enjoy it more.

 

And that really is the difference between the Atari 8 and ST for me: experiences related to the computer.

 

1) Atari 8... dad working with me on the Atari 400 and getting it expanded, BBS days, video games while in high school, active and light hearted community from year 2000 going forward.

2) Atari ST.. user group getting pissed off at me for showing an interest, user fan base always whining about what their computers need and can't do, etc.

 

Which would you choose?

[Marius]

As a kid I won an Atari 800xl. I have had a fabulous time with the Atari 800X.. i had it from 1985 - 1990.

 

Then I bought myself an Atari 1040STfm. That was pretty cool too. I guess it was around 1992, and I was 16 years old. I saved the money myself doing all kind of jobs.

 

At THAT age I never missed my Atari 800xl. I played the ST Games (which I like very much at that age) and I used my Atari for Music (cubase) and all kind of DTP kind of things for school. I loved the wordprocessor That's write. Especially because my friends were all stuck to Word Perfect 5.1, and I had this beautiful What You See Is What You Get Interface on my Atari ST.

 

But then in 1994 I re-entered The Atari 8bit scene, and from one day to another I 'forgot' My Atari ST.

 

For me personal it is simple: The Atari ST was a substitute of a PC. It's not a computer with a real soul for me. It's a very nice machine, but that's it.

The Atari 8bit is a complete different story. It's extremely cool to program on it, the games are much more fun.

Beside that: ok the 8bit is older... so (probably) less powerfull. The ST has an interesting CPU, it's faster and the screen resolution is better. (I like the Pokey chip more btw). But for it's age... I think the 8bit line is better.

 

I have really a lot of ST Equipment... and I'm still thinking: should I get rid of it... or not. I made my decision a year ago... but I have to admit: I don't know it for sure now. The last weeks I got some nostalgic feeling about my Atari ST era.

But what am I going to do with my Atari st?

 

Music -> no ... Logic Studio on my MacBook Pro works much better

Games -> perhaps... I love The Addams Family on Atari ST, and Lotus Esprit Challenge

DTP -> no ... works on MacBook Pro much better.

Programming -> perhaps... GFA basic is cool, and I might want to learn Assembler

 

I'm 100% sure when I install my Atari ST setup, and I remove my Atari 8bit... I will regret that within an hour. So I keep thinking

[+DarkLord]

Well, I started out with an 800XL. Loved it, my first computer. When the ST came out, I jumped ship, eventually

selling my entire 8bit setup. First time I heard the opening digitized song from Starglider, or saw that opening title

screen from The Pawn, I was blown away. Dungeon Master made it worse. I've had ST's ever since. Dabbled with a

few Amiga's, they are okay, but there's just something about my ST's. So I sold all of the Amiga's too. Every ST I've

got is upgraded, and used a lot. My 060 Falcon is awesome, love it - will probably get a Firebee when I get the money

saved up.

 

Just recently I've started to get back into the 8bits. I've got another 800XL now. I bought the SD drive, and I'm

on the list for Candle's ultimate 1meg upgrade. I've also got Metalguy66's stereo upgrade. When I get it all

together and up and running, I'm sure I'll have fun playing with it as well.

 

I simply can not draw a line down the middle and put the 8bits on one side and the ST's on the other. To me,

they will all always be Atari products. From the Atari pocket calculator to the mighty Falcon, and everything

in between, they just are Atari's. I'm a proud and happy owner of each!

 

'Nuff said...

[kogden]

I like both equally. Grew up with 8-bits initially.....parents eventually bought ST's and I ended up with a 130XE around the same time. Used both platforms regularly. Both were incredibly cool.

 

When it came to things like MIDI sequencing and desktop publishing the ST was awesome. Had a great selection of games too.

 

Would I have been happier if Amiga Lorraine had become the ST? Probably. Does the ST suck? Hell no, especially compared to most machines in '86.

 

The 8-bit was more fun to tinker on than the ST IMHO and a reasonably complete 8-bit is cheaper and easier to find than a working reasonably complete ST. Most ST's also required a real monitor as well and those can be tough to find.

 

It's a lot cheaper to play with the 8-bit as a hobby and lots of low-cost goodies like MyIDE and SIO2SD make it even more fun and removes the need for more equipment on the desk. I would need a lot more desk space to have an ST set up for regular use and there's more to break with an ST as well. Maybe one day but for now the ST emulator will suffice. If I did have an ST though, it's still capable enough to use for "real work" with MIDI and such.

 

Emulation of an ST on a PC seems more true to the "real experience" than the emulation of an 8-bit as well. Playing 8-bit Star Raiders, etc in an emulator just doesn't "feel" the same.

 

I really wanted a TT or Falcon but we gave up and bought macs after looking the direction Atari was going.

 

Our family were pretty much lifelong customers of Atari Computer, starting with my dad's 400. Once they started to not focus on the US market anymore, we felt a bit betrayed. Last Atari machine we bought was a Mega ST4 I think.... though my dad ALMOST bought me an STE. Fell through :-( bad grades.

[Gunstar]

(sorry, I qouted the wrong post so I cut it and pasted this one)

 

Marius1976 said-"As a kid I won an Atari 800xl. I have had a fabulous time with the Atari 800X.. i had it from 1985 - 1990.

 

Then I bought myself an Atari 1040STfm. That was pretty cool too. I guess it was around 1992, and I was 16 years old. I saved the money myself doing all kind of jobs.

 

At THAT age I never missed my Atari 800xl. I played the ST Games (which I like very much at that age) and I used my Atari for Music (cubase) and all kind of DTP kind of things for school. I loved the wordprocessor That's write. Especially because my friends were all stuck to Word Perfect 5.1, and I had this beautiful What You See Is What You Get Interface on my Atari ST.

 

But then in 1994 I re-entered The Atari 8bit scene, and from one day to another I 'forgot' My Atari ST.

 

For me personal it is simple: The Atari ST was a substitute of a PC. It's not a computer with a real soul for me. It's a very nice machine, but that's it.

The Atari 8bit is a complete different story. It's extremely cool to program on it, the games are much more fun.

Beside that: ok the 8bit is older... so (probably) less powerfull. The ST has an interesting CPU, it's faster and the screen resolution is better. (I like the Pokey chip more btw). But for it's age... I think the 8bit line is better.

 

I have really a lot of ST Equipment... and I'm still thinking: should I get rid of it... or not. I made my decision a year ago... but I have to admit: I don't know it for sure now. The last weeks I got some nostalgic feeling about my Atari ST era.

But what am I going to do with my Atari st?

 

Music -> no ... Logic Studio on my MacBook Pro works much better

Games -> perhaps... I love The Addams Family on Atari ST, and Lotus Esprit Challenge

DTP -> no ... works on MacBook Pro much better.

Programming -> perhaps... GFA basic is cool, and I might want to learn Assembler

 

I'm 100% sure when I install my Atari ST setup, and I remove my Atari 8bit... I will regret that within an hour. So I keep thinking "

 

 

REPLY:

 

Choose both. Obviously, like me, you do not have enough room to have all your systems set up at once, but that doesn't mean you have to get rid of the stuff or sit in indescision about which to have set up. Really, what does it take to put one system away and take out another and set it up? A few hours at most? I can do it in 15 minutes. I get a nostaligic urge for one system as I get tired again of another, so I switch them out. Even for a few days or a week, but usually for months or a year. Then I switch back. And you never know if one day you may have the space to set them all up at once. I say keep all you have if you have a place to store it and only sell if you have to have the money for financial difficuties becuase you WILL regret it later, regardless the reason for the sale, but at least you know the stuff helped you out when you needed the money.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Gunstar