Miss 2600 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I have to agree, to be honest -- the high reserves completely turned me off to the cart. I wasn't a contender anyway, but a reserve not met at $7K or even $5.5K to me is bordering into the territory of what I consider unreasonable greed. Having said that, I am betting the same -- that mediumbob's cart sells, but nagn's does not. Just curious what you guys think (I know the answer won't be the same for everyone). How much more do you think Medium Bob's cartridge is worth based on the better label? Say nagn2's reserve is $6,500. I don't know if it is, that is just my guess. Obviously Medium Bob's reserve is higher than that by at least $600. I guess, if you have the kind of money to bid that much on a cartridge, a few hundred dollars isn't much, but, there must be a point where the better label premium is no longer worth it. Well, I was wrong about the $6,500 reserve. At $7,250 now and still the reserve is not met. This really surprises me in nagn2's case. It's no longer one of a kind and it is the one in worse condition and the Birthday Mania offer price is still not enough :? What kind of "offers" have both sellers been getting if that is on which they're basing the reserve? If I was legitimately offered over $7,000 for a cartridge I got for next to nothing, I'd take it and screw the auction hassles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeusExMachina Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Well, I was wrong about the $6,500 reserve. At $7,250 now and still the reserve is not met. This really surprises me in nagn2's case. It's no longer one of a kind and it is the one in worse condition and the Birthday Mania offer price is still not enough :? What kind of "offers" have both sellers been getting if that is on which they're basing the reserve? If I was legitimately offered over $7,000 for a cartridge I got for next to nothing, I'd take it and screw the auction hassles. I think his reserve is not based on legitimate offers, it is based on speculation by people who have no intention of buying the item. The price is obviously overinflated at this point. 6 months ago, he could have gotten substantially more for the item. At this point it is probably worth significantly less than the current bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojay1997 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) With all due respect, gentlemen, I want to clarify one issue: A C&D is not required by law as a step prior to lawsuit. A C&D is used as an intermediary means to prevent an individual from continuing an action that is infringing or against a plaintiff's wishes, and it's generally used in situations in which a lawsuit is not seen as the best solution or when a lawsuit is seen as more costly than simply typing up a letter. If the defendant in the situation is likely to follow the cease & desist, and the plaintiff does not need damages but only wants an action to cease, a C&D letter is considered the best option possible. However, it is not a required intermediary step before the case goes to court, and if the plaintiff chooses, the plaintiff can immediately go to subpoena. It seems that you're insinuating that nothing can be done until a C&D is issued, which is not the case at all. If Mr. Schustack decided to go directly to court over reproduction carts, he has every right to do so, and does not need to send a C&D prior to. In fact, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Mr. Schustack wouldn't even send a C&D, because when viewed in light of certain factors (stated below), it makes poor economic sense to simply send a C&D. It would likely go straight to court. As Crazy Climber states, the reproduction run of carts will likely not be very large, and given the usual amount of reproduction carts sold, it is likely that the run would not exceed the small claims court limit for most states in the United States. Even if the original cart sells for over the small claims court limit, it is a hard argument to state that reproductions have devalued Mr. Schustack's "brand" in a level beyond the $5,000 - $10,000 that is the upper limit for small claims court, given several factors such as the age of the work, the small number of the work in existence, and the fact that the work has not been actively used or engaged in for such a long time (despite the work being still well within copyright standards, judges do consider the fact that an individual hasn't done more than let inventory sit in an attic for 20+ years). This is a double-edged sword, as it means that Mr. Schustack can very easily pursue damages in court without the hoops necessary to jump through in order to get a case to court. This also means that he need not have attorney representation, which makes it second-fold even easier for him to pursue legal avenues, which granted, would be limited to court fees in addition to whatever devaluation of the "brand" is considered. The other side of this, though, means that those wanting to make a repro are more likely to take that gamble, and it is unlikely that the court would require and follow-up that all copies already made be destroyed. The defendant would pay whatever sum in small claims court required plus legal fees, and would be required to cease creating reproductions. The big question in this instance would be what 'damages' would be incurred and decided upon by the guy in the black robe, and to be honest, I can't see said damages being much (but then again, I have a bit of vested interest in repros, since I'm a collector myself) -- certainly not the amount of these cart sales. It is reasonable to assume that the valuation of the carts would go downhill with more in the 'pipeline', so to speak, and if one were a defendant in the case, one could easily point to any number of repro sales in the past to get to a total that would be on offer for damages. Anyone going into something like this seeking hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars would pretty quickly learn that the amount they want would be completely out of the question in a court of law. How the court would come to the number would be as follows: Utilize the initial cart sale of whatever these end up at, then look to sales after reproductions (if any exist). If they can go this route, and the repro can be proven to directly be a cause for the lesser sales, damages would be whatever the DIFFERENCE between the two is. Surely this would not be more than $2.5k or so at maximum. There's a lot of hoops to jump through to even get to that point to begin with, and without post-repro sales to indicate how the valuation has gone down, you enter very vague territory in which the court generally can decide for itself what devaluation entitles. A plaintiff is not eligible for full damages in a devaluation case -- they are only eligible for damages equal to what the devaluation would be in order to 'get them' to full value of existing sales. Now, granted, the plaintiff would likely utilize the eBay and GG sales of these two carts as some sort of baseline, but the defendant could easily state that due to the nature of collecting, the baseline is more of a ceiling than any sort of real indication of price. It would be up to the court to decide whether a cart sale for $10k or so (provided it goes that high) is indicative of a significant enough monetary amount to move beyond small claims court. Nice text book answers. The reality is that there will be no High Court case here, or even a Supreme Court case. Do you have ANY idea what it would cost to make an application to be heard by a Supreme Court or to have a case heard there? To fight a copyright case through the courts would require a very experience barrister representating you, preferrably silk. Not only that, but courts do not award full costs to parties. Given at best there's around $20k of revenue at stake ($10k of profit at best) and out of pocket legal representation AFTER costs are awarded would be in the vicinity of $100k, is a no-brainer. So the most that will happen here is a C&D, unless as I said earlier, Steve had VERY deep pockets and principles .......which was exactly what I just said.......I am incredibly confused by your response. Small claims court in the United States is not even remotely close to a high court or a Supreme court, in fact the small claims court is the lowest court in the USA, not even requiring legal representation in the form of an attorney. It is designed for small claims, usually less than $10k, to be heard without incurring massive legal expenses. All that is required in a small claims case, which goes before a small claims judge (no jury) is court fees to be paid. I'm curious as to how exactly you are disagreeing with what I posted (or at least seem to be, but perhaps I am reading it wrong), when aside from your claim that there will be "at most" a C&D you're saying something exactly in parallel with my assessment. My point was you wont get a subpeona from a small claims tribunal, as you stated, so you would need to go to a court. so you are left with a C&D. If you decide to go to a small claims tribunal, you wont be in a position to represent yourself in a copyright matter. You will STILL need an experienced lawyer to represent you if you want any chance of winning. It will still cost you $50k-$100k in legal representation in a matter like this and legal fees are paid by the parties in small claims matters. As the other poster indicated, a lawyer can't represent you in court in small claims in most US states. In many states, however, there is something along the lines of "limited jurisdiction" for those claims where the amount is slightly more than small claims, but you want to be in court with an attorney. Discovery and other processes are truncated which reduces costs and fees on both sides. Ultimately, for a variety of reasons, a claim of this type should be brought in Federal court and attorney's fees are recoverable by the prevailing party, assuming the other side even has any assets. It is entirely possible to get an injunction barring the release, although many jurisdictions require posting a bond, so there are means of taking action to prevent release of the game but you're right that a lot depends on finding an attorney willing to take the case and actually finding the person releasing the game. In any event, I don't think anyone wants or expects it to get there and assuming somebody even wins one of these things, let's hope a deal can be worked out with the creator for permission to then release the game. Edited September 9, 2012 by bojay1997 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robocop2 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 If I was legitimately offered over $7,000 for a cartridge I got for next to nothing, I'd take it and screw the auction hassles. This. I am fairly certain that at least someone has tried to buy privately from either Nagn or Bob or maybe even both since this whole thing started. If it were me; I'd rather work behind the scenes on something like this one of course it's not as fun for everyone to watch that way though. Who knows maybe the auction is just a show and both have already been sold behind the scenes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 $7600. Hmm... The reserve price is higher than I expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bomberpunk Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 well, that's what both of them will end up doing when nobody reaches their reserve price of... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerwannabee Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Well both are now at $8,000+, and both still have not had their reserves met. I feel like they are screwing around the bidders with this garbage. They might just get a big surprise if they think they can just second chance offer this to the highest bidder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeusExMachina Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Well both are now at $8,000+, and both still have not had their reserves met. I feel like they are screwing around the bidders with this garbage. They might just get a big surprise if they think they can just second chance offer this to the highest bidder. ...and I wonder how many of the bids were placed by phantom bidders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high voltage Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I bet the reserve on both is 10.000 each Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cebus Capucinis Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 A bunch of sockpuppets is what I think! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Most if not all the bids on GameGavel are legit, I recognize most of them. The one good thing here even if these don't reach their reserves it will identify the value of each of these in the conditions they are in, so we will have all learned something. Then they can get relisted based on this new information or deals could be made with the high bidders at the end of the auctions. But who knows how these will end at this point or what the real value is until the bidding stops. The GameGavel auction ends tonight so we will see where it tops out. Edited September 9, 2012 by Parrothead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodzillaIsMyCopilot Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Here's all I have to say on this (and I realize I am simply rehashing a lot of people's points - this is in the interest of solidarity): I hope a whole mess of legitimate reproductions (legit hereto refers to a repro that is clearly marked as such) are made. Games like this belong in the hands of players. As with TCM< Halloween, and others before it, there will always be unscrupulous repro scammers, but that shouldn't discourage the honest folks from benefitting. Some people abuse their children - it doesn't mean that the entire human race should stop breeding. That particular cartridge belongs in the hands of a collector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 The one good thing here even if these don't reach their reserves it will identify the value of each of these in the conditions they are in, Only at this moment in time. The value of a cart can change every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Most if not all the bids on GameGavel are legit, I recognize most of them. The one good thing here even if these don't reach their reserves it will identify the value of each of these in the conditions they are in, so we will have all learned something. Then they can get relisted based on this new information or deals could be made with the high bidders at the end of the auctions. But who knows how these will end at this point or what the real value is until the bidding stops. The GameGavel auction ends tonight so we will see where it tops out. Sorry but I'm not a very trusting person I seen this same thing happen w/the sealed stadium events. It sold for 41k then relisted a week later and sold for like 14k. We all have are "conspiracy" theorys. Whether the bids are real or not "who knows". They could very well be real accounts of "friends" who know what the reserves are; and are bidding these carts up well beyond their value, just so people will "think" they are worth that much. I honestly can't believe any sane collector would shell out this kind of $$ for a game somebody made in his basement. To even think this holds the same kind of value as a game that was given away in a limited tournament 20 years ago by Nintendo themselves... well thats mind boggling to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennybingo Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 The one good thing here even if these don't reach their reserves it will identify the value of each of these in the conditions they are in, Only at this moment in time. The value of a cart can change every day. Especially if Steve Stack finds that box of 100 RSC carts buried in his garage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nopaybob Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I bet the reserve on both is 10.000 each My guess - There is a ridiculous reserve of 20,000 or 50,000 Since sellers are seeking publicity and the most dough they can get from this game It will show them a closer estimated value for today. But as soon as another planted hozer I mean RSC pops up They will wish there reserves were reasonable and sold there games before it is proved to be a 2007 game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I honestly can't believe any sane collector would shell out this kind of $$ for a game somebody made in his basement. To even think this holds the same kind of value as a game that was given away in a limited tournament 20 years ago by Nintendo themselves... well thats mind boggling to me. Made in a basement, given away in a limited tournament, found inside a coconut - there's no fixed measure for that. A certain thing has a certain value for a certain collector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennybingo Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I bet the reserve on both is 10.000 each My guess - There is a ridiculous reserve of 20,000 or 50,000 Since sellers are seeking publicity and the most dough they can get from this game It will show them a closer estimated value for today. But as soon as another planted hozer I mean RSC pops up They will wish there reserves were reasonable and sold there games before it is proved to be a 2007 game. I'm with you on this one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icemanxp300 Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I honestly can't believe any sane collector would shell out this kind of $$ for a game somebody made in his basement. To even think this holds the same kind of value as a game that was given away in a limited tournament 20 years ago by Nintendo themselves... well thats mind boggling to me. Made in a basement, given away in a limited tournament, found inside a coconut - there's no fixed measure for that. A certain thing has a certain value for a certain collector. Exactly. I just gave my opinion that I don't think this game is worth it's current price. When it actually sells and is paid for, then it will be worth it.... to 1 person at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HatefulGravey Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Is this how these things always go? This is just silly to me. We are looking at 8k on two auctions and no one is going to get this game for that money? Really? Just what are you expecting from this game? Its rare, I get that, but how much more could you hope to get from it? I thought this was all a bit out of hand, now that I'm seeing 8 grand on the table, and the sellers are turing it down. Just crazy talk. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennybingo Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 We are looking at 8k on two auctions and no one is going to get this game for that money? Really? Just what are you expecting from this game? nuff said. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cebus Capucinis Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennybingo Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rom Hunter Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 (edited) Is this how these things always go? This is just silly to me. We are looking at 8k on two auctions and no one is going to get this game for that money? Really? Just what are you expecting from this game? Its rare, I get that, but how much more could you hope to get from it? I thought this was all a bit out of hand, now that I'm seeing 8 grand on the table, and the sellers are turing it down. Just crazy talk. The collector spitting out more than 30K for a T-shaped piece of blue plastic and a cardboard box can be just as greedy as the seller who sets the reserve bar at 30K for that same piece of plastic and cardboard box. Two sides of the same coin. Edited September 9, 2012 by Rom Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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