New Generated NTSC Color Palette Files

[Trebor]

Okay folks...here we go. These are palette files from an actual NTSC color palette generator. The first set has a "standard", but some people may prefer or have televisions that either emphasized green or red more (aka Tint/Hue Control). Also, if you have adjusted the color pot in the 7800 unit itself, it can also account for these slight variations. The following variety of files accounts for that and hopefully more for you:

 

NEUT.pal - Neutral Standard

NEUT_MINUS_05.pal - NEUT.pal with minus 05 degree shift (Red Lean)

NEUT_MINUS_10.pal - NEUT.pal with minus 10 degree shift (More Red)

NEUT_MINUS_15.pal - NEUT.pal with minus 15 degree shift (Most Red)

NEUT_PLUS_05.pal - NEUT.pal with plus 05 degree shift (Green Lean)

NEUT_PLUS_10.pal - NEUT.pal with plus 10 degree shift (More Green)

NEUT_PLUS_15.pal - NEUT.pal with plus 15 degree shift (Most Green)

 

The next set contains two slight adjustments to contrast and saturation providing a more pleasing looking (and IMHO, more TV realistic) colors:

 

NEUTADJ.pal - NEUT.pal with 33.3% less contrast and 50% less saturation

NEUTADJ_MINUS_05.pal - NEUTADJ.pal with minus 05 degree shift (Red Lean)

NEUTADJ_MINUS_10.pal - NEUTADJ.pal with minus 10 degree shift (More Red)

NEUTADJ_MINUS_15.pal - NEUTADJ.pal with minus 15 degree shift (Most Red)

NEUTADJ_PLUS_05.pal - NEUTADJ.pal with plus 05 degree shift (Green Lean)

NEUTADJ_PLUS_10.pal - NEUTADJ.pal with plus 10 degree shift (More Green)

NEUTADJ_PLUS_15.pal - NEUTADJ.pal with plus 15 degree shift (Most Green)

 

No matter what palette you choose you will immediately see 'base' appropriate colors in situations like the enemy birds in 'Joust', the forest in 'Bentley Bear - Crystal Quest', and the latest 'Tank Command - Midnight Run' & 'Donkey Kong - Pokey Sound' (Arcade colors) hack, as well as appropriate colors in other standard/original titles - Xenophobe, Dig Dug, Ms. Pac-Man, Commando, etc.

 

Ideally it would be great to see ProSystem, MESS, and all other Atari 7800 emulators incorporate something like Blargg effects or their own internal NTSC color generator.

 

For now though, I hope this helps and benefits the community,

Trebor

PaletteRC1.zip

[SeaGtGruff]

Thank you! I'm looking forward to trying these out.

[Trebor]

You're welcome, SeaGtGruff.

 

To help visualize the differences among these palettes, I'm uploading 4 games which help demonstrate the variety most clearly: Bentley Bear (Forest), Commando (Level 1), Dig Dug (Level 1), Xenophobe (Title Screen). The captures for each game are in the following order

 

NEUT_MINUS_15.pal, NEUT.pal, NEUT_PLUS_15.pal

NEUTADJ_MINUS_15.pal, NEUTADJ.pal, NEUTADJ_PLUS_15.pal

 

Remember though, the zip in the first post offer +5, +10, as well as -5, -10 variations. They are not demonstrated here but it should still give you a basic idea of the options opened and allow you to pick the one closest to your matching "real system" configuration. Again, I'm hoping that NTSC color generation along with tweaking options (i.e. Blargg's effects) make its way in 7800 emulators as has been done for so many other emulators (Stella, kat5200, Altirra, Nestopia, Fusion, BSNES, ZSNES, etc.). On to the shots:

 

*Last note: The images are considerably duller/darker than what you will see with full screen or larger image captures.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by Trebor

[Trebor]

In line with the Pre-Order for Donkey Kong Pokey-XM Edition here's some more captures. These are from the latest ROM release that incorporates Arcade palette colors:

 

Edited October 19, 2012 by Trebor

[Trebor]

Pie/Cement:

 

[Trebor]

Rest of Donkey Kong XM Levels & How High...?:

 

 

 

 

[Trebor]

ALTERNATIVE...

 

Here's the deal, and another clear reason why all console emulators need NTSC generation, some displays can contain a different phase shift which can have an even greater impact the hue/tint effects on colors as well as the standard/neutral start. I'm making this next batch real simple unless there's a specific demand for something. Three files:

 

DEFAULT.pal - Standard

DEFAULT_MINUS_15.pal - Standard with 15 degree decrease shift (More Green)

DEFAULT_PLUS_15.pal - Standard with 15 degree increase shift (More Red)

 

How this compares to the old set is really noticeable on the greens-browns-tan-like colors, but of course all colors are impacted. Particularly, you'll notice with the DEFAULT_PLUS_15.pal how we're back to a "tan/brown" forest in Bentley. Curious when the game is released if anyone's display (or/and console pot) is actually tuned/tweaked this way who buys and plays the game.

 

PaletteRC2.zip

Edited October 20, 2012 by Trebor

[Trebor]

Just a few captures from the PaletteRC2.zip batch in this order:

 

DEFAULT_MINUS_15.pal, DEFAULT.pal, DEFAULT_PLUS_15.pal

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2012 by Trebor

[KevinMos3]

Here are these palettes in png form so ppl can clearly see the differences and use with a color picker if desired. Helpful if you use one of the palettes with ProSystem and want to match a color with an arcade color.

 

First the MINUS 15, then DEFAULT, then PLUS 15:

 

Edited October 20, 2012 by KevinMos3

[Trebor]

Thanks for those tables Kevin, they are extremely helpful.

 

You can really see where some values there is a lot more variance regarding colors across palettes and other values there is nearly none. It may help developers too in wanting to make sure if they desire for most everyone to see a particular color, which values will more likely achieve that goal and which are more likely to result in a different appearance depending on display and settings.

[Bakasama]

How come you're using JPG as the format for those screenshots? Shouldn't you be using GIF or PNG? JPGs tend to be less than pixel perfect and tend to add more unnecessary colors.

[Trebor]

This is it folks the final draft. As with all the palettes that have been posted on this thread, none have been handpicked or singled out colored corrected. They are all calculated via a NTSC color generator with changes made to phase shifts and hue start points from from 1 unit to as small as 1/10 of a degree. Changing either of those two values affects all colors in the palette which ensures the feasibility and assurance that such a palette can and does exists.

 

This last set has taking into account the following:

 

1. Four different NTSC Atari 7800 systems (Two with expansion interfaces and two without). Two units via original RF and two via Composite mod thanks to Best Electronics for one and out very own Yurkie for the other.

 

2. Three sets of televisions were used: A Panasonic LCD, Panasonic Plasma, and an Insignia LED. All four units were tried on all three sets, as well as laptop connected.

Although having a complete NTSC game collection as well as most homebrew produced for the 7800. The following are some points of interest which helped to ensure the proper NTSC selection was made based upon several dozen possibilities only 15 remained which are possible targets (All again within one unit to 1/10 of a degree of change to the palette). From the 15, only 8 are realistic to include unless someone has a strong desire for all color to have a stronger green hue in them.

 

Some points of interest include:

A. Pac-Man Collection - Inky color. Inky should match results from the Atari 7800 systems attached on the same television set.

B. Commando - It has a very overly green palette there was much discussion on it surrounding Yurkie's mod at one time, which the same exact results were found in the Best Electronic mod as well as one of the two RF based machines. One RF machine has a slightly stronger red push which provided a slightly more browner color. All my televisions had to have the tint unusually high towards the red to have a true brown color.

Nonetheless, this is very common from actual footage of an NTSC Atari 7800:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3rOkRdnBLU

C. Choplifter - Also greener ground in tone than most palettes produced and also found the greener ground tones in my systems across all sets. Another NTSC system example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beuC4njtLUE

D. Xenophobe - Colors at title screen.

E. Dig Dug - Sky and bottom earth layer level 1.

F. Joust - Proper bird colors - a discussion of that is found here: http://www.atariage....e/#entry2123945

My four system and three sets also produced the same outcome experienced by urborg.

 

The trick is keeping the NTSC 'realm of possibilities' while having the outcome of colors match across the systems, televisions and calculated values. Your eliminate much while trying to maintain a correct Inky color from Pac-man Collection while balancing the greens and browns in other titles.

 

Anyhow, the attached is the end results. There are only two palettes:

 

REALNTSC.pal

REALNTSC_LESS_RED.pal

 

REALNTSC is the exact match of calculated values along with matching with my four Atari 7800 systems and three television sets. Again, no colors were handpicked or manipulated. If colors didn't match, a degree shift or start in hue was presented and it adjusted the entire palette. Not just one color or set of colors - the whole palette.

 

REALNTSC_LESS_RED.pal - Is the absolute zero tolerance of hue/tint change or push for red. It leaves a 'greener' palette obviously, and if I were to place my sets in a slightly greener direction I can achieve these colors. Seeing some sets may push red more or too much though, this I wanted to put out as an option.

 

The difference between the two palettes is 7 degree shift. It doesn't seem like much, but it does play a larger role in the browns/greens, particularly with Commando, Dig Dug and of course the upcoming Bentley Bear.

 

Screenshots to follow (png format – My bad/oversight for the jpgs – Thanks for the reminder Bakasama). However, as mentioned in earlier posts to this thread, there will be things missing such as slight variance in color and effects from a full screen/larger capture than what is provided here.

 

*Bottom line: REALNTSC.pal is the palette to use, unless your display has a very strong red push/slant, then REALNTSC_LESS_RED.pal is the one.

FinalBeta.zip

[Trebor]

Screenshots are all from REALNTSC.pal only:

Edited October 22, 2012 by Trebor

[Jaynz]

Is it wrong that the main reply I can muster is jealousy over Frenzy and Tempest?

 

Thanks for the palette work, though! It's a marked improvement!

[Trebor]

Is it wrong that the main reply I can muster is jealousy over Frenzy and Tempest?

 

Thanks for the palette work, though! It's a marked improvement!

 

You're welcome...Some of those shots are from either abandoned or still very much WIP projects with no end date in sight, AFAIK.

 

I just went through the series of ROMs I had when looking to take screenshots. From what I recall neither are playable - Maybe Tempest slightly, but Frenzy was very much Beta/Alpha.

[KevinMos3]

Very nice work Trebor. A couple of things here:

 

I'm very glad to see that my color choices for Tank Command (color edit) still look good with your palette, which gives me hope it will look good on a real system.

I'm also glad to see that my color suggestions for Donkey Kong (pokey sound) weren't immediately outdated since I was using another palette at the time.

Lastly, I'm very glad I did not have time to do this when asked because you've done a much more thorough and better job than I would have.

 

Of note: when I first viewed this, I was using a friend's LCD with my PC. It looked absolutely horrible. Once I returned home and used my own LCD, it looked great. His LCD is much brighter than mine, and yet these palettes looked WAY too dark. My LCD is more subdued and yet this palette looks brighter. I suppose the monitor can make all the difference with something like this and I would have to assume you were going for an appearance like what I see right now. That is also encouraging for how my monitor and graphics card are set for other things. Anyway, great job! Thanks so much for the hard work on this.

Edited October 22, 2012 by KevinMos3

[Trebor]

Of note: when I first viewed this, I was using a friend's LCD with my PC. It looked absolutely horrible. Once I returned home and used my own LCD, it looked great. His LCD is much brighter than mine, and yet these palettes looked WAY too dark. My LCD is more subdued and yet this palette looks brighter. I suppose the monitor can make all the difference with something like this and I would have to assume you were going for an appearance like what I see right now. That is also encouraging for how my monitor and graphics card are set for other things. Anyway, great job! Thanks so much for the hard work on this.

 

Thank you for this and I had a similar experience. In fact, my main/home LED an ASUS - some colors were "right" and others “wrong”, but I cannot hook a 7800 to it. Ditto on one laptop they look perfect (Work Dell i7) and yet another laptop they look okay (Dell Inspirion). On an NEC at my job they fall in between excellent to good.

 

That is why both keys are critical in this scenario:

 

1. NTSC Color calculated generator

2. Comparison on multiple displays with both the actual system and machine running emulator with palette.

 

It doesn't matter if a palette color is "sky-blue" on one monitor, "purple" on another display, and "navy blue" on a third, that is fine. As long as an actual system hooked up to those same displays also produce a "sky-blue”, "purple" or "navy blue" on the respective devices; same principle for brightness and saturation of course. This color palette is set at neutral for those values. My early posting contained a palette with neutral and adjusted saturation/contrast values trying to address factors such as ‘brightness/darkness’, but those possibilities are truly endless.

 

What matters is on the same display the colors should be extremely close if not perfect when viewing both the emulator and the real machine.

 

Ensuring nothing is handpicked or containing manually manipulated colors and is only calculated solidifies the deal.

 

And you read my mind on the conversion deal with the old palette...

Although I am not sure how to get the *.pal values converted into the 7800.c source still for this ‘correct’ one (REALNTSC.pal). I’m looking into it, but help (when/if you get the chance) would be greatly appreciated.

 

What would fix all this work and ensuring everyone is happy with every display is of course as mentioned previously is an NTSC palette generator within the emulator along with tint/hue, saturation, brightness, contrast controls - at the bare minimum. Ideally fringing and artifact manipulation should be present as well along with sharpness, scanlines controls, etc.

 

For now though with all evidence presented and testing, this really is (IMHO) the closest we have to an "accurate NTSC palette" for the 7800. Of course one doesn't really exist, but this is (again, IMHO) the best substitute to date.

 

I did a final pass-run on two more displays along with one of my RF and one of my composite machines - along with the emulator palette REALNTSC.pal and it looks ideal. Dropping the "LESS_RED" one as from eight displays (5 tested with console hardware and palette simultaneous), four 7800 machines - all look lacking "red" with the less red palette, and accurate with the plain REALNTSC one against a real console.

 

It makes REALNTSC.pal final for the 7800 colors. Previous other palettes of course are present in this thread and others. Just to emphasize the main point once more, this is not about what "looks best", nothing has been hand manipulated and picked. No one color or section of colors changed while leaving the remaining palette as is...Accuracy of what the actual hardware produced on the same displays running the palette is pivotal. Having that harmonious is what makes it best.

 

This is a NTSC color generated palette with comparison on real hardware for several different displays running the real hardware mentioned earlier. Any phase shifts and hue start adjustments were done in increments as small as 1/10th of a degree to the entire palette and always staying within the realm of real NTSC possibilities while running comparisons across numerous games, especially focused on several make-break colors areas mentioned earlier.

 

Again, I hope this helps the community and is beneficial to all. Final palette is attached for clarity and convenience.

REALNTSC.zip

Edited October 22, 2012 by Trebor

[KevinMos3]

And you read my mind on the conversion deal with the old palette...

Although I am not sure how to get the *.pal values converted into the 7800.c source still for this ‘correct’ one (REALNTSC.pal). I’m looking into it, but help (when/if you get the chance) would be greatly appreciated.

 

I'm not sure what my circumstances will be over the next six months. I know I will be very busy and there will be a lot of constraints on my time, (this is the Army after-all). But, I believe I will have weekends free at least some of the time (hopefully). I may be able to look at that soon, or it may be months. We'll see.

 

In the meantime, the *.pal file is also an Adobe Photoshop *.act file. You can rename the extension to ".act", open Photoshop and create an indexed color mode file, load a custom palette which will be your .act file, and then use the color picker to get all the HSL, RGB, LAB, CMYK, etc. values.

 

Actually, here's the palette in a png format for use with any color picker. Doing it this way will be tedious and time consuming, but it should get the job done. There's probably an easier way to do it, but I seem to find the hard way first.

 

[Bakasama]

Is that pallet pic the most correct possible? I might use that for some upcoming mockup 7800 screenshots.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Bakasama

[SeaGtGruff]

I made a Stella-compatible version for the 2600. I'm posting it in the emulation forum.

[Trebor]

Is that pallet pic the most correct possible? I might use that for some upcoming mockup 7800 screenshots.

 

Based on cross references of 4 consoles (2 modified for composite and 2 RF) several displays with nothing handpicked or selective manipulation, using only an NTSC color generator along with 0.1-1.0 degree changes to either or both phase shift and hue start points which affect the entire palette and not just one or a group of select colors, IMHO it is the most correct possible...Again, an NTSC generator internal to an emulator with controls for tint/hue, color/saturation, brightness and contrast as bare minimum would be ideal though.

 

As many can testify actual experience will vary, but if the palette is used on a display and that same display has a console attached, the color(s) should match or be extremely close to matching.

[Trebor]

I made a Stella-compatible version for the 2600. I'm posting it in the emulation forum.

 

That was very thoughtful and considerate of you, thanks.

 

Stella has implemented blargg NTSC effects though...Far superior (No fixed palette) and the right way to obtain colors. It gives the user the flexibility to manipulate all or at least many of the factors which can impact color and display including but not limited to: tint/hue, color/saturation, brightness, and contrast.

 

My hope is ProSystem, MESS, or some other (new) Atari 7800 emulator will come along and implement the same or something very similar.

 

Altirra, kat5200, Nestopia, bsnes, ZSNES, Kega Fusion, Stella...are just some of the many emulators that have NTSC generation/effects implemented.

[SeaGtGruff]

using only an NTSC color generator along with 0.1-1.0 degree changes to either or both phase shift and hue start points which affect the entire palette and not just one or a group of select colors, IMHO it is the most correct possible...Again, an NTSC generator internal to an emulator with controls for tint/hue, color/saturation, brightness and contrast as bare minimum would be ideal though.

There should be some RGB value trimming for some of the colors. I don't know if you took that into account, but the final version you posted looks really good!

[Trebor]

There should be some RGB value trimming for some of the colors. I don't know if you took that into account, but the final version you posted looks really good!

 

I didn't perform any trimming. My concern lies in the variety of way display devices, especially more modern ones handle the values. While matching of console and palette to displays was performed, the same console and palette on one display looked super bright or a little more red or a little more green on another display, while perhaps looking a little too dim with dead on saturation, brightness, contrast on another (IMHO).

 

Once you also factor what can be done to those raw RGB values once fed to an emulator**, I didn't want to start doing a personal or can be very subjective than objective changes.

 

**See MESS and HLSL effects which in part essentially allows all or most manipulations to the display for the RGB that is provided - MESS is just missing the first piece which is NSTC generation as it is really MAME where Arcade machines (mostly) have set RGB values.

[Trebor]

I'm not sure what my circumstances will be over the next six months. I know I will be very busy and there will be a lot of constraints on my time, (this is the Army after-all). But, I believe I will have weekends free at least some of the time (hopefully). I may be able to look at that soon, or it may be months. We'll see.

 

In the meantime, the *.pal file is also an Adobe Photoshop *.act file. You can rename the extension to ".act", open Photoshop and create an indexed color mode file, load a custom palette which will be your .act file, and then use the color picker to get all the HSL, RGB, LAB, CMYK, etc. values.

 

Actually, here's the palette in a png format for use with any color picker. Doing it this way will be tedious and time consuming, but it should get the job done. There's probably an easier way to do it, but I seem to find the hard way first.

 

 

Thanks, Kevin...I either overlooked or didn't realize you were in the Army...Understandably; you are a very busy man. I appreciate the information and learned something new today *.pal <-> *.act....thanks for that

 

I'm attaching the source file here from MESS hoping someone may have an easier (more automatic?) way of obtaining the RGB values from the palette and have them updated.

 

a7800.zip