Word Processing on ST to publish on Windows

[oky2000]

Forgive the silly question, but is Microsoft Write WYSIWYG full GEM application or as crap as the DOS text based screen of their PC version.

 

If it is a proper word processor then surely Microsoft Office can still read legacy Microsoft Write files?

[Zogging Hell]

It's slow as hell on a ST, although better with NVDI, and there is no spell checker. It might be compatible with some ancient versions of Word on the Mac (or was it Microsoft Works?) but I suspect it's very unlikely Office would be able to import anything off it. However that said, on a faster computer with NVDI it isn't half as bad as is made out, and it seems to be pretty compatible and stable once you have it installed. It doesn't use Speedo fonts however so you are limited to bitmap fonts, which is also a bit of a problem.

[Atari8guy]

I tried Write, couldn't stand it. And that was on an accelerated STE. I actually own a retail copy of it. I never checked out compatibility with current MS products though....I suppose I could just for completeness.

[flashjazzcat]

I always liked ProText, although I'm not sure what the export options are like off the top of my head.

[oky2000]

I used First Word Plus on a plain ST with a software blitter and that was OK. Have a new copy of ST Write but have never loaded it myself.

[pixelmischief]

Necro-bump.

 

I just spent a few hours exploring several options for printing to modern printers from he ST. Like the op, I quickly homed in on generating docs on the ST and importing them into modern word processors on the Wintel side. Also, like so many of the respondents, I found RTF into any modern software to be the way to go. The winning configuration was "SpeedoGDOS 5" for font rendering and "Atari Works II" for word processing. AW2 exports to RTF and Word 2012 will still open and render the RTF generated on the Atari side. "Speedo" allows me to use the same TrueType fonts on the Atari side that I use on the Wintel side, and when they match up, the solution is nearly perfect.

[Atari8guy]

Almost 2 years later and I'm still using Marcel. It seems to be the easiest and now that I'm comfortable with it..... I doubt I'll change. Good to know on the fonts though....If it ever becomes a need, I'll keep that in mind.

[Lynxpro]

If you wanted to try WordUp, you could probably ask Mike Fulton for ideas over at the Atari Museum group on Facebook.

 

 

Funny, I never used WordPerfect on my ST back in the day because it was too expense and I wasn't going to pirate it. I only used First Word on my 1040ST and Atari Works on my Falcon.

 

You know what? I'm a bit cheesed off still that Atari unbundled NEOchrome when they released the 1040STf. I doubt they had a successful attach rate for it on its own since Degas Elite was already preferred by then. Hmm, side thought…I wonder if the Atari Touch Tablet would work with any paint programs on the ST without patching or drivers.

[Rick Dangerous]

Hey guys,

 

I will admit that a big reason i got my ST was to do some writing on a non-net connected machine. I'm thinking a short novel and keeping a journal might be fun.

 

I can't find Word Perfect or Atari Works, but i'm watching copies of Word Up and Wordflair with GDOS on ebay right now. Would either of those be suitable for saving to RTF?

 

I'm also open to trying Tempus, but would need to upgrade my Ste first and get something like an Ultrasatan to get the program file on my HD.

 

Also, how do you guys get your files to PC, with a 3.5 disc, or do you use something like the Ultrasatan?

 

This might be a stupid question, but i'm an ST newb so I have to ask, will any 3.5 floppy's be formattable on the Ste or should I be looking for a certain type/brand.

 

Searched for Marcel also but no luck

 

THANKS!!

[Bill Loguidice]

Hey guys,

 

I will admit that a big reason i got my ST was to do some writing on a non-net connected machine. I'm thinking a short novel and keeping a journal might be fun.

 

I can't find Word Perfect or Atari Works, but i'm watching copies of Word Up and Wordflair with GDOS on ebay right now. Would either of those be suitable for saving to RTF?

 

I'm also open to trying Tempus, but would need to upgrade my Ste first and get something like an Ultrasatan to get the program file on my HD.

 

Also, how do you guys get your files to PC, with a 3.5 disc, or do you use something like the Ultrasatan?

 

This might be a stupid question, but i'm an ST newb so I have to ask, will any 3.5 floppy's be formattable on the Ste or should I be looking for a certain type/brand.

 

Searched for Marcel also but no luck

 

THANKS!!

 

Not to be THAT guy again, but I'd be wary of writing anything of value on a vintage machine. Today's machines have the benefit of simultaneous local and cloud storage with virtually unlimited versioning, so it's almost impossible to lose your work. If you want a distraction-free writing environment for a modern machine, there are plenty of solid choices. In my opinion, if you're going to go through the effort of writing something of value, why waste effort trying not to lose it and then work the extra steps involved in converting it to something usable on modern machines? Also, if you have the discipline to write, you should also have the discipline to avoid distractions.

 

I elaborated on those thoughts about a year ago, here (Side note: I ultimately decided to withdraw my Kickstarter support for that project and continue to write "normally" in things like Word, Scrivener, Evernote, and Notepad++).

[Fletch]

Hey guys,

 

I will admit that a big reason i got my ST was to do some writing on a non-net connected machine. I'm thinking a short novel and keeping a journal might be fun.

 

I can't find Word Perfect or Atari Works, but i'm watching copies of Word Up and Wordflair with GDOS on ebay right now. Would either of those be suitable for saving to RTF?

 

I'm also open to trying Tempus, but would need to upgrade my Ste first and get something like an Ultrasatan to get the program file on my HD.

 

Also, how do you guys get your files to PC, with a 3.5 disc, or do you use something like the Ultrasatan?

 

This might be a stupid question, but i'm an ST newb so I have to ask, will any 3.5 floppy's be formattable on the Ste or should I be looking for a certain type/brand.

 

Searched for Marcel also but no luck

 

THANKS!!

 

 

Trouble you'll have with floppies is that many modern machines have difficulty formatting a 720K one. The ST will read a PC formatted 720K floppy just fine, but a PC or a Mac often have trouble reading a disk formatted by the ST. And as you know, 3.5" floppy drives on PC/Mac are quite rare these days.

 

UltraSatan would be a better call as HD Driver and PPera's driver can both format the SD card so that it is readable on PC/Mac as well as the ST.

 

As for distraction free writing, do what works for you. Personally I'm not a huge fan of typing long documents on any ST/STe/Falcon keyboard, but you might like it. The Mega's keyboard is awesome though.

 

Bill's point about backing up is a good one. I guess it would be smart to save to both the floppy and the UltraSatan if you go that route.

[Christos]

There is only one good reason. It is more fun. And cloud storage is possible on an st. At least through ftp.

[Rick Dangerous]

Great, thanks for the thoughts and input guys I really appreciate it and much to consider.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on Word Up vs Wordflair for saving in .rtf?

[Bill Loguidice]

There is only one good reason. It is more fun. And cloud storage is possible on an st. At least through ftp.

 

Fun is relative and obviously not up for debate, but your comment about FTP is not even remotely equivalent unless you know of an ST word processor that saves directly over FTP or some other connected network. It's still a multi-step process adding layers of complexity where none is needed.

[Lynxpro]

 

Not to be THAT guy again, but I'd be wary of writing anything of value on a vintage machine. Today's machines have the benefit of simultaneous local and cloud storage with virtually unlimited versioning, so it's almost impossible to lose your work. If you want a distraction-free writing environment for a modern machine, there are plenty of solid choices. In my opinion, if you're going to go through the effort of writing something of value, why waste effort trying not to lose it and then work the extra steps involved in converting it to something usable on modern machines? Also, if you have the discipline to write, you should also have the discipline to avoid distractions.

 

I elaborated on those thoughts about a year ago, here (Side note: I ultimately decided to withdraw my Kickstarter support for that project and continue to write "normally" in things like Word, Scrivener, Evernote, and Notepad++).

 

 

Not to be THAT guy again, but I'd be wary of writing anything of value on a vintage machine. Today's machines have the benefit of simultaneous local and cloud storage with virtually unlimited versioning, so it's almost impossible to lose your work. If you want a distraction-free writing environment for a modern machine, there are plenty of solid choices. In my opinion, if you're going to go through the effort of writing something of value, why waste effort trying not to lose it and then work the extra steps involved in converting it to something usable on modern machines? Also, if you have the discipline to write, you should also have the discipline to avoid distractions.

 

I elaborated on those thoughts about a year ago, here (Side note: I ultimately decided to withdraw my Kickstarter support for that project and continue to write "normally" in things like Word, Scrivener, Evernote, and Notepad++).

 

I do agree with you but some people - whether we consider them to be hobbyists, enthusiasts, or eccentrics - still prefer using vintage equipment and programs/applications. George RR Martin being a prime example…he writes everyone using WordStar on original equipment [if I recall, he uses an IBM PC XT class computer]. Although the distraction-free "feature" doesn't seem to be helping him finish his current book up quickly.

 

If you have an Atari Falcon [or perhaps a TT], could could conceivably hook up a SCSI ZIP Drive to it.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

 

I do agree with you but some people - whether we consider them to be hobbyists, enthusiasts, or eccentrics - still prefer using vintage equipment and programs/applications. George RR Martin being a prime example…he writes everyone using WordStar on original equipment [if I recall, he uses an IBM PC XT class computer]. Although the distraction-free "feature" doesn't seem to be helping him finish his current book up quickly.

 

If you have an Atari Falcon [or perhaps a TT], could could conceivably hook up a SCSI ZIP Drive to it.

 

There are always eccentrics, but it doesn't make them right (it's particularly disappointing when certain famous sci-fi authors dislike using technology). He has a workflow that he likes and works for him and doesn't want to change it, more power to him, but if you read the lengths he has to go to to make an outdated workflow function in a modern world, it hardly seems worth it. At his age, I wouldn't necessarily expect him to change. And frankly, with his market value, he could write with a chisel and stone tablet at this point and others would be happy to do the work of converting his carvings for modern usage.

[flashjazzcat]

Anything which further distances the stage at which text is formatted (and hyper-links added) from the actual compositional stage is beneficial IMO. A lot of blog stuff suffers from the influence of HD-width editing windows (resulting in long sentences which completely lose their way, cannot be easily unravelled and are usually left as they are), reliance on spell-checkers to take care of typos, and content generally obfuscated by form. Inadvertently starting and ending a sentence with the exact same pair of words (for example) or omitting the word "is" on which the sense of the whole contstruct is hung are arguably easier to spot if you don't have a lot of clutter competing for your attention. If it were solely a question of discipline, pieces written using modern text editors would surely have attained a higher general quality than they have. But I see - if anything - evidence that the opposite is the case. The discipline to proof and re-proof has been lost, resulting in lazy writing which reads like a how-not-to of style howlers. A lot of Internet blog content absolutely reeks of heavy distraction: we are told that this is down to the pace of modern life (perhaps the piece was written on the bus) and various other factors. But the discipline of writing - IMO - is not the ability to ignore distraction, but the ability to write well. Being easily distracted does not mean you're an undisciplined writer: it just means you're easily distracted. The solution would be to go in search of a writing environment free from distractions. If that's an Atari ST, so be it.

 

Data still gets lost in catastrophic ways every day. Hard disks die with little or no warning, cloud services crash or are subject to hacking (or otherwise inexplicably go offline, as can one's Internet connection from time to time). While distributed backups are always a good idea and the means of creating them more convenient than ever before, the notion that making two copies of your (comparatively tiny, BTW) text file by - say - copying it from the (FAT formatted) SD card in your UltraSatan introduces "layers of complexity" is really stretching my credulity. In addition, while modern tools are very clever, the blind faith that everything "just works" is usually the kiss of death (try Internet banking when your router's broken). While a comprehensive backup strategy is one thing which DOES require a lot of discipline (since it's inconvenient and boring and apparently superfluous until the backup is actually needed), the time and energy required to maintain multiple copies of a 100KB text file are, I'd suggest, negligible.

 

Yes, it's easy to get words down on the page today. I'd venture it's too easy. Everyone and their dog can publish themselves. Indeed, some dogs apparently have their own blogs. Be different: dig out a dedicated word processor and relieve yourself of the distraction of the underlying OS itself and mean every word you write.

Edited November 10, 2015 by flashjazzcat

[Bill Loguidice]

Anything which further distances the stage at which text is formatted (and hyper-links added) from the actual compositional stage is beneficial IMO. A lot of blog stuff suffers from the influence of HD-width editing windows (resulting in long sentences which completely lose their way, cannot be easily unravelled and are usually left as they are), reliance on spell-checkers to take care of typos, and content generally obfuscated by form. Inadvertently starting and ending a sentence with the exact same pair of words (for example) or omitting the word "is" on which the sense of the whole contstruct is hung are arguably easier to spot if you don't have a lot of clutter competing for your attention. If it were solely a question of discipline, pieces written using modern text editors would surely have attained a higher general quality than they have. But I see - if anything - evidence that the opposite is the case. The discipline to proof and re-proof has been lost, resulting in lazy writing which reads like a how-not-to of style howlers. A lot of Internet blog content absolutely reeks of heavy distraction: we are told that this is down to the pace of modern life (perhaps the piece was written on the bus) and various other factors. But the discipline of writing - IMO - is not the ability to ignore distraction, but the ability to write well. Being easily distracted does not mean you're an undisciplined writer: it just means you're easily distracted. The solution would be to go in search of a writing environment free from distractions. If that's an Atari ST, so be it.

 

Data still gets lost in catastrophic ways every day. Hard disks die with little or no warning, cloud services crash or are subject to hacking (or otherwise inexplicably go offline, as can one's Internet connection from time to time). While distributed backups are always a good idea and the means of creating them more convenient than ever before, the notion that making two copies of your (comparatively tiny, BTW) text file by - say - copying it from the (FAT formatted) SD card in your UltraSatan introduces "layers of complexity" is really stretching my credulity. In addition, while modern tools are very clever, the blind faith that everything "just works" is usually the kiss of death (try Internet banking when your router's broken). While a comprehensive backup strategy is one thing which DOES require a lot of discipline (since it's inconvenient and boring and apparently superfluous until the backup is actually needed), the time and energy required to maintain multiple copies of a 100KB text file are, I'd suggest, negligible.

 

Yes, it's easy to get words down on the page today. I'd venture it's too easy. Everyone and their dog can publish themselves. Indeed, some dogs apparently have their own blogs. Be different: dig out a dedicated word processor and relieve yourself of the distraction of the underlying OS itself and mean every word you write.

 

You can't compare blog posts to the type of content standard you're trying to fabricate. For the most part, blog posts, by necessity, need to be written quickly. This is not the day of the newspaper where content can be worked over a few times and then go to an editor before being published. Many bloggers are their own editors, which is unfortunate, but necessary in our fast paced world of instant deadlines. Also, many bloggers do in fact write in notepad-like apps or simplified Web editors (using markup where necessary), so it's not like there are lots of modern conveniences in those cases (other than the usual modern safety nets in case of things like power or data failures). Regardless, singling out blogging seems a bit silly to me. It's just one of many delivery platforms. There is plenty of long form content out there that does have the time to be written in a more thoughtful manner. And again, there are tons of distraction-free writing tools for modern machines and plenty of ways to make your modern environment distraction-free, so there's no real need to use vintage technology with outdated and cumbersome workflows to achieve that. If someone is doing it for fun, so be it, but to do it for practical reasons is anything but.

 

As for the small text file thing and the ease to back it up, that's not the root problem here. Older computers and software can crash. If you didn't save, you lose that work. If a modern computer and software crashes and you're using the right cloud service for storage and the right software (automatic database-like saves), you have effectively a zero percent chance of losing more than a few seconds of work. If your drive or whole computer dies, you just pick right up where you left off on another device. It's all automatic and seamless, with more redundancy than anyone could ever need, particularly since the data is not only in the cloud, but also on your local drive (and the local drive of whatever else device you happen to have on at the time). I know I have full control and can manipulate all of my content without issue whether I'm on my work desktop, home desktop, or mobile computer, allowing me to work anywhere and in any way that I want.

 

As for multiple saves of a text file on an old computer, what happens if you accidentally overwrite it? Can you go back to an earlier version like you can today? Most likely not. Most likely that file is gone forever. Etc.

 

And gosh, I "Internet bank." In the unlikely event my router is down (or cable Internet service), I can use my smartphone to access and manipulate my banking info. Everything being cloud accessible from a wide variety of devices sure is handy, isn't it?

 

Look, anyone can use anything they want, of course, but let's not overly romanticize the quality of vintage productivity software and workflows (save that for the games). I suffered through decades of vintage productivity software and workflows because there was nothing better available. I'm saying now there is clearly something better available. If someone needs to cast that aside in order to be able to write, so be it I guess.

[Christos]

 

Fun is relative and obviously not up for debate, but your comment about FTP is not even remotely equivalent unless you know of an ST word processor that saves directly over FTP or some other connected network. It's still a multi-step process adding layers of complexity where none is needed.

 

You are absolutely right in that ftp requires you to connect to the server and copy the files there. With a basic mint install though, you can always rsync your documents folder to a remote server. It's just a matter of writting a small script and setting it up as a cron job. It can even be a small ST program you can run everytime you want to rsync.

[atarian1]

Great, thanks for the thoughts and input guys I really appreciate it and much to consider.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on Word Up vs Wordflair for saving in .rtf?

 

I used to use WordUp and thought it was too slow and buggy. I actually went back to ST Writer because those two shortcomings, so I missed out in all the fonts and graphics. I only used it for short one page documents because if it crashed, I didn't lose that much time and work... I think it was version 2 that was tolerable, but version 3 was the worst. I recall Neocept went out of business shortly after version 3 was released. WordUp did not support RTF probably because the format did not exist when it came out.

 

I have not tried Wordflair before. However, I remember it being demoed at the local user group by Goldleaf, the publishers. The best feature I recall was the special fonts such as math symbols (summation, square root, integration, etc.). The biggest shortcoming that I recall was that you can only have one document open at a time. That turned me off big time because that is what made GEM/TOS so powerful - having multiple windows open at the same time and cutting/pasting between them. I don't recall if Wordflair supports RTF format.

 

I think the old 2013 recommendations still stand today. I would recommend Papyrus with NVDI as that was the word processor that made me abandon ST Writer because it was fast. Someone else recommended Marcel which I think was good too. If you don't need fonts, then Marcel would be a good choice too. Both load and save in RTF format. I remember using RTF back in college quite a bit to load/save documents between school PCs and my ST/Falcon.

Edited November 11, 2015 by atarian1

[Rick Dangerous]

 

Papyrus with NVDI

 

Marcel

 

Does anyone know where I could get a copy of one of these? I could not find either on ebay, or with Best or B&C. Won a copy of Word Up V 2.0 in the meantime for $10 bucks but not sure it's going to save in the RTF format..

[kodak80]

 

Does anyone know where I could get a copy of one of these? I could not find either on ebay, or with Best or B&C. Won a copy of Word Up V 2.0 in the meantime for $10 bucks but not sure it's going to save in the RTF format..

Papyrus was available on an Atari ST Review magazine issue 28 cover disk. I have this available as an MSA floppy disk on my website: http://www.chillichai.com/atari-st-review

 

Hope this helps. The MSA disks can be downloaded and you can either use an Atari ST MSA program to re-create the disk or use HxC Emulator on a windows computer to open the MSA file and extract the files manually to a folder or floppy disk.

[Rick Dangerous]

Papyrus was available on an Atari ST Review magazine issue 28 cover disk. I have this available as an MSA floppy disk on my website: http://www.chillichai.com/atari-st-review

 

Hope this helps. The MSA disks can be downloaded and you can either use an Atari ST MSA program to re-create the disk or use HxC Emulator on a windows computer to open the MSA file and extract the files manually to a folder or floppy disk.

 

This is just a little above my user level right now, but thanks for the resource I really appreciate it.

 

I think first I need to get a Ultrasatan drive so I can get the file directly onto my ST's HD. Would that work? What is the simplest way to get this working?

 

If anyone would be up to make me a floppy with Marcel or Papyrus (or Both!) I would gladly overcompensate you for your time and materials..

[Christos]

You can get marcel at the essential software list:https://sites.google.com/site/stessential/wordprocessors

 

Dont expect much thou since you cant use fonts.

[Zogging Hell]

The Papyrus version on the ST Review cover disk is just a demo with a water mark iirc. Papyrus Atari was still being sold until recently (might still be). There is also a Windows version http://www.papyrus.de/download/

 

I think 16/32 in the UK may still be selling the CD version of Papyrus X (the final version)

 

NVDI again is still being sold by Applications Systems Heidleberg (ASH) allegedly, though their customer response isn't so good apparently. If you hunt around you may be able to find a copy somewhere though as it really abandoned.