Would you support a crowd funded, brand new, Atari 2600 console?

[mos6507]

Gosh. We've hit the singularity. I'll have to try that with Space Invaders and see how authentic it is.

[iesposta]

Anyone else get this today? Kickstarter GCW-Zero:

Project Update #26: We're Taking Atari Back to its Roots.

Posted by Justin Barwick

We are raising funds to buy the iconic Atari brand, re-launch it, and give it back to you on the GCW portable gaming platform.

 

 

Atari is the Godfather of gaming.  It is an icon that represents more than just a gaming company: it is one of the most recognizable names in gaming history.  The company recently filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and its assets are going up for sale.

 

We believe a new entity could be launched using smart, lean development teams and next generation hardware fit for today’s gaming environment.

 

GCW is an open-sourced, handheld gaming platform that is creating the next wave of gaming:  powerful enough to run classic PC games, emulate the game consoles we grew up with, and run homebrewed games seamlessly at high frame rates.

 

We want to combine the classic gaming experience of Atari with the awesome power of today’s handhelds - like the GCW.

 

We need your support and feedback to make this happen.

 

Please click here to show your support....

Care to comment? View this update on Kickstarter →

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Download the Kickstarter app

 

 

Unsubscribe from this project's updates with one click KICKSTARTER

[kevtris]

I like this idea. The FPGA ones are interesting, but I suspect there's still something things that aren't 100% - I'd be interested in knowing if the 32 character kernel works correctly or not. If the firmware can be updated by the end user, and it's maintained as well as Stella, then it might not be an issue.

 

Yes, I will give it a try next time i have the hardware running (I have it set aside while I finish this synth). I suspect it will work, though. I have tried absolutely everything else and it works good.

 

 

Interesting projects here.

 

So I've felt that the cheapest way forward is to cannibalize parts from old systems. Save the key 3 chips and transplant them into a fresh board that does everything a piece of vintage gear should do these days.

 

I could easily make a "new 2600" board in a few hours but I don't think there's much of a market for that. Ditto with any other classic console up to SNES or so. I've been reproducing them in the FPGA on a single "standard" board, however instead. The board looks like this:

 

 

I designed it originally to fit inside an NES cartridge case for the box since it'd be small and kind of amusing, but I have since abandoned that and will go with a laser cut one on the final iteration. It's a custom design, specifically for the purpose and is not one of those usual dev boards. The connector on the back (13 pin DIN) is designed to accept real controllers via an adapter for any system (got NES, SNES, and a few others right now) A 1541 or similar could even be plugged in with an adapter for C64.

 

Yep - Stella emulates it. Hit BACKSPACE.

 

How does the "frying" work? I suspected it had to do with the RIOT and CPU resets not being concurrent, since both seem to be generated separately. So something like a game's clear routine wouldn't get to function properly. Other than that, I am not too sure about how it works without doing some testing. I never got to it when I had the 2600 under the microscope awhile back.

 

If anyone wanted to see video of this doodad running the various systems, I have a bunch of youtube videos up, viewable on my channel.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/kevtris?feature=mhee

[+batari]

I could easily make a "new 2600" board in a few hours but I don't think there's much of a market for that.

if you mean something that takes the old chips, yeah, not much market. If you mean a standalone FPGA product, I disagree. I do agree that if you are using the $40 cadillac of FPGAs then you might as well make a system that does everything (and it makes it worth the price point.) But how about something in between, with a more modest FPGA or CPLD (I.e. cheap) that just barely will do the 2600 and only the 2600? There would be a reasonable market if you can get a low- cost system and that's what this thread is about.

 

I will also share my concern of 100% compatibility - did you do all of the illegal instructions? I mean all 256 opcodes and their behaviors? Most batari Basic games don't work on the FB2 because they missed some that they thought nobody would use.

[Retro Rogue]

Someone else is trying for a publicity stunt for their handheld now:

 

http://www.fundable.com/reset-atari

 

$250,000 won't come anywhere near the cost of buying the brand and IP (we're talking millions), the history on the page is laughable, most of the titles listed the current Atari does not own (Pitfall? Pac-Man?), and the financial info is completely wrong. It really saddens me seeing stuff like this.

[bennybingo]

Someone else is trying for a publicity stunt for their handheld now:

 

http://www.fundable.com/reset-atari

 

$250,000 won't come anywhere near the cost of buying the brand and IP (we're talking millions), the history on the page is laughable, most of the titles listed the current Atari does not own (Pitfall? Pac-Man?), and the financial info is completely wrong. It really saddens me seeing stuff like this.

I would actually go a step further and call it a borderline scam. To try to get $250,000 funded, knowing it is not nearly enough to accomplish the intended goal, is fraudulent at best. It is likely going to end in tears for anyone who "buys in".

[Andromeda Stardust]

Someone else is trying for a publicity stunt for their handheld now:

 

http://www.fundable.com/reset-atari

 

$250,000 won't come anywhere near the cost of buying the brand and IP (we're talking millions), the history on the page is laughable, most of the titles listed the current Atari does not own (Pitfall? Pac-Man?), and the financial info is completely wrong. It really saddens me seeing stuff like this.

I would actually go a step further and call it a borderline scam. To try to get $250,000 funded, knowing it is not nearly enough to accomplish the intended goal, is fraudulent at best. It is likely going to end in tears for anyone who "buys in".

So this is a definite no-no? Thanks for the warning. They won't get any money from me.

 

@kevtris:

 

All hings aside, I've thought about it and I'm all in favor of an FPGA-based multi-clone project. Atari 2600 to SNES/Genesis and everything in between sounds awesome. I would recommend focusing on the most popular consoles such as Atari 2600, NES, SNES, Genesis, and then adding support for additional consoles in the future. If you make sure that all of the relevant mixing circuits are in place, additional projects could be added in and bugs fixed by contributing programmers. Be sure to release the design under GPU so people can make changes to it and add features. Then you have a standard build and release it as a parts "kit" or a more expensive pre-assembled option for people who can't solder. I just recently bought a Uzebox and assembled it myself. It's a pretty neat console although a number of the "games" included with it are actually concept demos with no real gameplay. The multiconsole approach is a brilliant idea and an FPGA has the hardware to do the stuff. I recommend using a powerful FPGA even if it costs a little more, for support of the 16-bit consoles. One area I caution you about is the legal gray area of downloading ROMs that you don't own and running them on an emulator. A number of companies have attempted to release handheld emulation devices in the past and gotten into trouble with Nintendo and other companies for posting screenshots of copyrighted games in their adds. That's why the clone manufacturers are using cartridge slots for classic games instead of a ROM loader. You still can't play unless you own the games. Hyperkin recently released the Retron4 which includes slots for NES, SNES, Genesis, and GBA. Still no love for Atari VCS/2600. I believe the market for flash carts and such for retro systems is small enough that Nintendo and other companies look the other way; if you are making this as a service to retro gamers, then making a quality product for higher cost components will result in smaller market saturation, so it's less likely to impact the bigger companies radar. After all, you don't man the torpedoes (corporate lawyers) every time something the size of a dolphin (homebrew project) crosses the radar. You save your torpedoes for the battleships, gunboats, and aircraft carriers (Power Joy and other Asian xxx-in-1 pirate clones, R4 carts, modchips, etc...).

 

All-in-all, I would buy one of these all-in-one FPGA / Flash cart consoles just for support of the Vectrex library. If you can get the vector screen emulation working well, even if it's just at VGA resolutions, that would be great. I would love to add Vectrex to my video game library but the Vectrex consoles are becoming exceedingly rare and prone to failure. I've seen resellers trying to hock non-working consoles on eBay for $200. Sorry, that's just out of my league. I'm also running out of room for my growing library of consoles, so I feel that an all-in-one FPGA clone would be great for me to sample other game systems that I can't afford or don't have the room for. I'll still probably use the NES for NES games, and ditto for the Atari, but it will be awesome for systems I don't already own.

Edited March 10, 2013 by stardust4ever

[kevtris]

if you mean something that takes the old chips, yeah, not much market. If you mean a standalone FPGA product, I disagree. I do agree that if you are using the $40 cadillac of FPGAs then you might as well make a system that does everything (and it makes it worth the price point.) But how about something in between, with a more modest FPGA or CPLD (I.e. cheap) that just barely will do the 2600 and only the 2600? There would be a reasonable market if you can get a low- cost system and that's what this thread is about.

 

I will also share my concern of 100% compatibility - did you do all of the illegal instructions? I mean all 256 opcodes and their behaviors? Most batari Basic games don't work on the FB2 because they missed some that they thought nobody would use.

 

Yeah, I think the cheapest I could make it is to use that $12 cyclone 3 chip, some level translators, throw on a 2600 cart socket, and a DAC and call 'er a day. It could be fairly cheap, maybe a $75 price point? maybe less if quantity was higher... possibly as cheap as 50 bucks or so. Size would be the size of a deck of playing cards, or smaller if I go with a 2 sided loadout on the PCB.

 

My 6502/6507 core is 100% exact. I support every single instruction including all the esoteric ones, all 256 opcodes are available for use. I have done extensive testing between my 6502 core and a real 6502. It's a perfect FPGA clone of the 6502, or as close as you can get. cycle timings are exactly the same as a real one, too. I *did* turn the "jam" opcodes into NOPs but I could just as easily make them lock the CPU up like on a real one.

 

It's possible my 2600 core is not 100% exact, but I have run literally every single ROM in existence (that I have or could find, including all games, demos, protos and works in progress and test ROMs) and they all work as expected. I ran all the games on Bankzilla and did A/B tests side by side with two monitors and it was the same. I am not sure what more testing I can do. I also wrote several custom test ROMs and hooked my logic analyzer up to my 2600 to make sure things were kosher and the signals on the 2600's bus matched my FPGA (using signaltap) and they do down to the nanosecond pretty much. I put a lot of effort into the design to make sure it was as close of a match as possible. It's written in 100% verilog and I used all original code, from the CPU core to the TIA and RIOT.

 

Video's generated in RGB and then converted to NTSC (and PAL) via more verilog, so that I can output RGB, straight composite, s-video, and component using the same 3 channel DAC. This video encoding core is one I created specifically for these FPGA projects.

 

 

@kevtris:

 

All hings aside, I've thought about it and I'm all in favor of an FPGA-based multi-clone project. Atari 2600 to SNES/Genesis and everything in between sounds awesome. I would recommend focusing on the most popular consoles such as Atari 2600, NES, SNES, Genesis, and then adding support for additional consoles in the future. If you make sure that all of the relevant mixing circuits are in place, additional projects could be added in and bugs fixed by contributing programmers.

 

Yeah I already have a huge list of consoles so that's good. SNES/genesis aren't possible on the current hardware iteration and I am not sure I would sell one right away with the required FPGA since it'd cost $80 for the chip which is harder to swallow than $40, but it's possible I might be able to get a deal on it from Altera... not sure yet.

 

Be sure to release the design under GPU so people can make changes to it and add features. Then you have a standard build and release it as a parts "kit" or a more expensive pre-assembled option for people who can't solder.

 

I will not open my FPGA cores probably, but I *will* allow easy integration if people want to write their own, and will include an SDK for doing just this. I cannot release my cores since I have licensed the CPU and several other sub-cores in my designs. I have used them to remake older projects where the parts have gone end of life (EOL). Be that as it may, it will be easy for anyone to make their own core for playing anything they want, like arcade machines. I have not added any arcade machines simply since the bang for the buck is kinda low (game quantity vs. making the project) compared to something like the 2600.

 

I cannot offer it as a kit, either. All that fine pitch SMD components are very hard to kit up, and even harder for someone to solder that's used to through hole. It'll be much cheaper to have the boards assembled, and then tested. Lots less frustration for the users, too IMO. Also, most of the chips have epads on the bottom that must be soldered, and doing those without a proper solder stencil and stuff is hairy on a good day.

 

The multiconsole approach is a brilliant idea and an FPGA has the hardware to do the stuff. I recommend using a powerful FPGA even if it costs a little more, for support of the 16-bit consoles. One area I caution you about is the legal gray area of downloading ROMs that you don't own and running them on an emulator. A number of companies have attempted to release handheld emulation devices in the past and gotten into trouble with Nintendo and other companies for posting screenshots of copyrighted games in their adds.

 

Hmm, that's interesting. Didn't know that, thanks for the heads up. (and yeah I figured if I'm going to do this, it's go big or go home. lol. I made the bankzilla "all in one" atari 2600 monster back in 1995-96, and this is the multiconsole version of it).

 

All-in-all, I would buy one of these all-in-one FPGA / Flash cart consoles just for support of the Vectrex library. If you can get the vector screen emulation working well, even if it's just at VGA resolutions, that would be great. I would love to add Vectrex to my video game library but the Vectrex consoles are becoming exceedingly rare and prone to failure. I've seen resellers trying to hock non-working consoles on eBay for $200. Sorry, that's just out of my league. I'm also running out of room for my growing library of consoles, so I feel that an all-in-one FPGA clone would be great for me to sample other game systems that I can't afford or don't have the room for. I'll still probably use the NES for NES games, and ditto for the Atari, but it will be awesome for systems I don't already own.

 

Yes, you hit the nail on the head as to a big reason why I am doing this. Having this little tiny box sitting on the TV instead of a couple closets worth of games and consoles that are bordering on geriatric is one of my big driving factors here. I like the consoles but they are getting old, don't work as well as they used to, and frankly take up quite a big chunk of space in my house. Being able to exactly recreate the look and feel of them using new parts I can buy from Digikey or <insert electronic part company here> is very appealing to me. To show an example of how fanatical I was about accuracy, my NES core video output is an EXACT copy of a real NES' video output, to the voltage levels. I did some A/B tests on the same monitor with a video switcher, one connected to a real NES, the other to my FPGA and ran the same game on both, and reset the two at the same time. Switching back and forth you could not tell any difference. Even the information in the overscan and hblank/vblanks are identical! I really did get it down to the pixel, and then voltage level. I take pride in exactly recreating not only the hardware, but the same voltage levels and stuff that exists on the original hardware. I went through the same trouble for my 2600 core and the other cores I have done so far.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Well, now that you claim the 16-bit consoles would require a twice-as-expensive FPGA chip, it kinda makes sense that it may not be possible to do the SNES/Genesis. What about TG-16? Would that be possible with the $40 chip or would you need the larger $80 one? IMO TG-16 is kind of in between 3rd gen and 4th gen, kind of like the 5200 is in between 2nd and 3rd. Also, if the $40 "Cadillac" and $80 "Rolls Royce" FPGA's are mutually compatible, you could possibly do two models, a lite and a deluxe version for people who can afford it. Again, I'm looking into this project mainly as a way to play games for systems that aren't practical for me to own due either to price, space limitations, or scarcity. I also don't plan on buying any more retro consoles for the time being. I've already jacked my bed up on cinder blocks to make extra storage space underneath it for all my game consoles/accessories because my mom doesn't want it cluttering up her house. Someday when my fiance and I get our own place (her current place is a two bedroom), we'll get a larger three bedroom house to ourselves, and she's understanding enough to let me have an entire spare bedroom for games, collectibles, and any other hobby stuff I might have.

[barnieg]

I still think cost wise it would be be better to do a hybrid retro console based on something like the raspberry pi with a breakout board and/or the retrode previously mentioned. Questions that need to be asked doing something like this either way is what's the easiest and cheapest way to get something onto the market? Curts flashback chip is going to be easier to re-manufacture than a new fpga design.

 

The technical details I am looking into are whether a raspberry pi's GPIO port is fast enough to feed a 2600's cart port with rom data , although saying that a supercharger type input may be more practical

 

Another thing to consider is any collaboration possible? Jeri Ellsworth has the C64DTV chip for example. A empty 8-bit shell which has a slot/carrier for "personality" boards could work

[yllawwally]

Since this is atariage, I would say emulate the 5 main cartridge based game systems. Could the $40 fpga simulate 2600,5200,7800,xegs, and lynx? Since they are all based on 6502 variants, I would think it would make it easiest to do. The SD card slot would only add 1-2 dollars to add. It wouldn't have nearly the functionality of the harmony. The harmony adds an extra processor, and all that extra ram. This would provide a possible firmware upgrade path, if desired. 4 controller ports would be needed. 1 set of ports would be 2600, which could by used to also connect genesis controllers for the extra buttons that the lynx needs. And another set of the ports for the 5200 style controllers. Then we would need 4 cartridge ports. The game cartridge ports would add to the size the most. I would prefer composite, component, or dvi out, for the video. DVI can easily be hooked to modern tv's. HDMI with it's mandatory encryption, would be too expensive. It would be nice to have all the atari based machines in one box. It seems that if this could be made into a box that sold for $100.00, it would be fairly successful.

[roland p]

DVI can easily be hooked to modern tv's. HDMI with it's mandatory encryption, would be too expensive.

HDCP encryption is optional.

Edited March 11, 2013 by roland p

[+Gemintronic]

Okay. Kevtris has the technology to make 2600 and Coleco hardware.

 

We could license/buy the Coleco name from River West Brands.

 

Kickstarter the combination and make new Coleco Gemini units!!!!!!

 

THIS IS A THOROUGHLY DOABLE PROJECT.

[lapetino]

Okay. Kevtris has the technology to make 2600 and Coleco hardware.

 

We could license/buy the Coleco name from River West Brands.

 

Kickstarter the combination and make new Coleco Gemini units!!!!!!

 

THIS IS A THOROUGHLY DOABLE PROJECT.

 

This is a great idea!

[Retro Rogue]

Okay. Kevtris has the technology to make 2600 and Coleco hardware.

 

We could license/buy the Coleco name from River West Brands.

 

Kickstarter the combination and make new Coleco Gemini units!!!!!!

 

THIS IS A THOROUGHLY DOABLE PROJECT.

 

You'd also have to license the Colecovision's bios, unless Kev would come up with a reasonable alternative (that was not based in any way on inside knowledge of the CV's bios).

[+Gemintronic]

You'd also have to license the Colecovision's bios, unless Kev would come up with a reasonable alternative (that was not based in any way on inside knowledge of the CV's bios).

 

Why? The Gemini never had the Colecovision BIOs..

 

http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/others/coleco_gemini.htm

This is the clone that started it all. Around 1982 Coleco reverse engineered the Atari 2600 and built their own compatible machine in addition to a 2600 adapter for the Colecovision console. Atari immediately laid the smackdown with a lawsuit for copyright infringement, but lost on the grounds that the console didn't use any unique Atari components (it was made from off the shelf parts.) That opened the door for anyone to go to Radio Shack and slap together their own game console and steal customers from the big boys, which is exactly what all those overnight Chinese companies are still doing today. Subsequent lawsuits made cloning a "gray area," like it's okay to manufacture machines like this but you can't use any of the real company's logos, characters, or intellectual property (like games) in your advertising or on your packaging. We all know how well that law is obeyed. Nintendo claims to lose billions to Pirates every year and is even released their Ique console inside of China first in an attempt to meet the Pirates on their own ground. But there's no way to totally stamp out Piracy, and I say that's a good thing, because I like collecting pirate crap.

[Retro Rogue]

Why? The Gemini never had the Colecovision BIOs..

 

http://ultimateconso...leco_gemini.htm

 

The Colecovision does. You said "2600 and Coleco hardware," if you wanted to make a unit that has 2600 and Colecovision support, you'd need to deal with the bios licensing issue. Otherwise I don't get your reference to Coleco. Nothing in the 2600 hardware is covered legally any more, the patents have long since expired. If you're just making a 2600 clone you don't need to license anything from Coleco for that, and the Gemini name itself would have very little brand name recognition.

[Rik]

No. There's still tons out there to buy. I assume a new console would be lots more expensive. Folks look for cheap deals enough as it is.

[kevtris]

Well, now that you claim the 16-bit consoles would require a twice-as-expensive FPGA chip, it kinda makes sense that it may not be possible to do the SNES/Genesis. What about TG-16? Would that be possible with the $40 chip or would you need the larger $80 one? IMO TG-16 is kind of in between 3rd gen and 4th gen, kind of like the 5200 is in between 2nd and 3rd.

 

TG-16 isn't possible, simply because of RAM bandwidth. The TG-16 has a 64K VRAM buffer and then the CPU's pretty darn fast, which would kill the bandwidth I have on my SDRAM. I could add more RAM to fix this problem but that would drive costs up. I would like to support it but it almost needs the bigger FPGA (more blockram which can handle the VRAM part without added RAM chips).

 

 

Also, if the $40 "Cadillac" and $80 "Rolls Royce" FPGA's are mutually compatible, you could possibly do two models, a lite and a deluxe version for people who can afford it. Again, I'm looking into this project mainly as a way to play games for systems that aren't practical for me to own due either to price, space limitations, or scarcity. I also don't plan on buying any more retro consoles for the time being. I've already jacked my bed up on cinder blocks to make extra storage space underneath it for all my game consoles/accessories because my mom doesn't want it cluttering up her house. Someday when my fiance and I get our own place (her current place is a two bedroom), we'll get a larger three bedroom house to ourselves, and she's understanding enough to let me have an entire spare bedroom for games, collectibles, and any other hobby stuff I might have.

 

Yes, the two FPGAs are compatible in the fact both could be put on the same circuit board mutually exclusive. I would most likely design the board for the extra RAM and all that, but just not populate the RAM and use the cheaper FPGA. This doesn't really cost much of anything extra and cuts down costs to get things made, since the same solder paste templates and board are used for both versions. The compiler (I use Quartus II) has built in support for upgrade/downgrade paths on the same PCB footprint.

 

 

I still think cost wise it would be be better to do a hybrid retro console based on something like the raspberry pi with a breakout board and/or the retrode previously mentioned.

 

That will cost quite a bit more and be larger and clunkier. It'd be a collection of boards plugged together with cables, vs. a small PCB with everything on it, ready to go.

 

Curts flashback chip is going to be easier to re-manufacture than a new fpga design.

 

An ASIC run costs tens of thousands of dollars or more to even get started (Probably close to 50-60K). An FPGA design costs nothing to tool up. Of course the per unit cost of an ASIC is cheaper than an FPGA, but then you have to buy 10K or more pieces (really 50-100K to get any kind of low cost per unit). The other drawback, is if there's a bug it cannot be fixed without spending another $50K. FPGAs on the other hand, are ideal for smaller runs, like what you would have on a "retro" console like this. The other benefit of the FPGA is (At least in my design) the FPGA configuration files sit on an SD card, and you can get instant upgrades or even MORE consoles by adding/changing a few files on the SD card. Every time a new console is added, one simply drops the new file on the card and away you go.

 

A empty 8-bit shell which has a slot/carrier for "personality" boards could work

 

This is basically what an FPGA is. It's a "blank" chip that can be programmed and reprogrammed nearly instantly to simulate nearly anything made of digital logic.

 

 

Since this is atariage, I would say emulate the 5 main cartridge based game systems. Could the $40 fpga simulate 2600,5200,7800,xegs, and lynx? Since they are all based on 6502 variants, I would think it would make it easiest to do. The SD card slot would only add 1-2 dollars to add.

 

Yes it can do this. Lynx is actually one of the major targets for my board I wanted to add next. For an example of size, the 2600 project takes up about 15-20% of the FPGA core, while NES (and its freight train of mappers and sound hardware) is around 90%. Odyssey^2 is a lightweight, around 30% with the speech chip stuff.

 

It wouldn't have nearly the functionality of the harmony. The harmony adds an extra processor, and all that extra ram. This would provide a possible firmware upgrade path, if desired. 4 controller ports would be needed.

 

Not true. Most of these designs DO have a second CPU in them as a controller. I tend to make a "65C02 microcontroller" which is a 65C02 core + 4K or so of RAM/ROM. This then operates things like data loading, or interfacing. So far it has worked very well. I also have made an 18 bit CPU called the "kevrisc" which is an optimized RISC core CPU. I expect full on screen menus and popup menus and such for this project. Right now, I have 16Mbytes of SDRAM on board that the games are loaded into. This is a basically unlimited amount of memory, especially for things like 2600.

 

As for controllers, I was going to go for 2 USB controller ports, or 4 for slightly more money. I may keep the expansion port on the back to allow plugging in "real" controllers via adapter cables.

[Andromeda Stardust]

TG-16 isn't possible, simply because of RAM bandwidth. The TG-16 has a 64K VRAM buffer and then the CPU's pretty darn fast, which would kill the bandwidth I have on my SDRAM. I could add more RAM to fix this problem but that would drive costs up. I would like to support it but it almost needs the bigger FPGA (more blockram which can handle the VRAM part without added RAM chips).

That's too bad TG-16 were some of my favorite games on Wii Virtual Console.

Yes it can do this. Lynx is actually one of the major targets for my board I wanted to add next. For an example of size, the 2600 project takes up about 15-20% of the FPGA core, while NES (and its freight train of mappers and sound hardware) is around 90%. Odyssey^2 is a lightweight, around 30% with the speech chip stuff.

Yikes, NES is a heavywieght. I guess you could consider the NES a "freight train" when it comes to mappers. One idea; I don't know how feasible it is, but perhaps you could keep some of the more common mappers (like the 74xx mappers, MMC 1, 3, and possibly 5) built into the first half of the FPGA code, then if it's possible to program the FPGA in "blocks", you could add additional mappers to the second half on the fly. After all, under normal circumstances, it won't be necessary to activate more than one mapper at a time, so no need to try to cram them all in there if they won't fit. The NES Powerpak uses an FPGA chip to emulate mappers including the expansion sound chips.

As for controllers, I was going to go for 2 USB controller ports, or 4 for slightly more money. I may keep the expansion port on the back to allow plugging in "real" controllers via adapter cables.

Nice. I just recently built a Uzebox, which is a modern 8-bit homebrew system which employs an NES/SNES controller interface, and it's really nice although it could use a few more games. Although they do make USB <-> retro adapters, using USB would just add an entire extra layer of complexity when you can just do two output lines and one input per Nintendo controller with zero configuration. Also, certain controllers simply don't work with USB adapters (VCS Driving, VCS Paddle, NES Zapper, SNES Mouse, etc...). Edited March 12, 2013 by stardust4ever

[kevtris]

Nice. I just recently built a Uzebox, which is a modern 8-bit homebrew system which employs an NES/SNES controller interface, and it's really nice although it could use a few more games. Although they do make USB <-> retro adapters, using USB would just add an entire extra layer of complexity when you can just do two output lines and one input per Nintendo controller with zero configuration. Also, certain controllers simply don't work with USB adapters (VCS Driving, VCS Paddle, NES Zapper, SNES Mouse, etc...).

 

yeah the problem you run into is that most controllers like SNES ones (what I been using, actually) is the custom connectors on them. Almost all modernish (NES and on, except for genesis) use custom controller connectors of some form. Interfacing to the controllers is usually trivial (snes, N64, etc) but connecting to them is the hard part. Also, most of these controllers are not being made any more.

 

That's why I figured USB would probably be the safest bet: you can use a modern game pad, joystick or what have you (think: mouse + keyboard inputs too for computer simulations or things like the SNES mouse which can be persuaded to work on the NES, or the famicom keyboard). SNES and other controllers can be used with USB adapters that already exist. Unfortunately USB *does* complicate matters slightly but this isn't too big of a speedbump. The other option is bluetooth controllers but that would make it more difficult for things like SNES to USB adapters to work. I think USB is probably about the best since it lets you use all new parts and adapt older controls too. As for allowing every type of 2600 peripheral, I think this is possible but it'd need a special adapter doodad.

 

If I was making this adapter doodad it'd be a bit more general than 2600, too... allowing plugging in 2600, 7800, genesis, intv, or coleco or vectrex controllers to the same 9 pin plug. Might as well spend a little more time to handle all the cases instead of handling the cases piecemeal. I wouldn't include this functionality on the base system because it'd cost more and take up PCB room. My aim is to make the smallest doodad possible, which also makes it suitable for portable-ization by those so inclined. In that arena, smaller is definitely better.

[Andromeda Stardust]

If I was making this adapter doodad it'd be a bit more general than 2600, too... allowing plugging in 2600, 7800, genesis, intv, or coleco or vectrex controllers to the same 9 pin plug. Might as well spend a little more time to handle all the cases instead of handling the cases piecemeal. I wouldn't include this functionality on the base system because it'd cost more and take up PCB room. My aim is to make the smallest doodad possible, which also makes it suitable for portable-ization by those so inclined. In that arena, smaller is definitely better.

Two 9-pin serial headers could be used for P1 and P2 controllers. You could even leave them unpopulated if you want, but some type of interface needs to be on the board for people who want to add support for retro controllers, even if it's strictly a DIY add-on. I believe (but I could be mistaken) that all of the 9-pin serial type controllers used the same pins for VCC and GND. You could then use tri-state buffers (which can be switched to operate as both an input and output) on the digital I/O pins for proper operation of controllers that need some type of input signal, such as NES/SNES, and to a lesser extent the Genesis. A number of clone manufacturers used a 9-pin serial interface for cloned Nintendo gamepads namely the PowerJoy pirate console. Assuming the ground and VCC are the same (which would need to be checked out) , you could use the pirate layout for the 9-pin interface and then publish a pinout schematic for gamers to create adapters for the gamepads. There are now 3rd party suppliers for proprietary Nintendo controller ports, so it should be possible to produce such adapters without sacrificing old hardware. Since certain Atari joysticks use bare switches, and other controllers may attempt to output a signal into the wrong pin, it would be wise to install shunt resistors on all of the data I/O lines to ensure that a short condition is not created. Even with adapters, you may run into issues however if there exist controllers with ground and VCC on the wrong pins. It may also be difficult to interpret the Atari Paddle controllers since one side of the pot is unconnected (a "proper" voltage divider for use with an ADC circuit needs to have both ends of the pot connected to a voltage source, and the Atari Paddles do not follow this convention - also the 1megohm pot in the Paddles is extremely high and you might run into issues with the input impedance of the ADC not being sensitive enough). Edited March 12, 2013 by stardust4ever

[barnieg]

To clarify raspberry pi proposal - the idea behind my breakout board would be a mass produced board which has the common requirements of an 8-bit computer/console, the purchaser would then customise it with a carrier containing the 8bit + custom chip logic

 

The reason I mentioned curts flashback design is it is already available yes it would need funding but I don't think that raising the money for reproducing the asic would be that difficult on kickstarter. As I have already mentioned Jeri Ellsworth is apparently sitting on a 150K stockpile of C64DTV lets see some collaboration

 

Kevtris: Your ideas are great but how much would each unit cost?

 

Curt: Are you able to use the "Flashback" name for products or is that exclusive to Atari?

[Andromeda Stardust]

To clarify raspberry pi proposal - the idea behind my breakout board would be a mass produced board which has the common requirements of an 8-bit computer/console, the purchaser would then customise it with a carrier containing the 8bit + custom chip logic.

As long as you're using software emulation on a modern microprocessor, you might as well be playing on a modded PSP. They're pretty cheap used now, and I believe all firmware versions are cracked, so it's possible to run anything on it.

 

The FPGA solution uses hardware emulation, not software emulation. There is a difference, so emulating using hardware is more authentic than emultating using software. Additionally, unlike the system-on-a-chip consoles, if someone finds a bug, it is relatively painless to reflash the device and eliminate the bugs as they are found. If you find a bug on a custom chip (like the swapped 25% and 50% duty cycles on most NOACs), you're pretty much stuck with it forever unless somebody spends the time and money to produce a new chip die. And I can promise you the Chinese factories that make the clones don't give a damn if the hardware has bugs, as long as 90+ % of games run on it. Sadly, any homebrews which use certain undocumented instructions or any other kind of advanced trickery (most do) will not operate properly on the Flashback II clone chip. If the Chinese eventually decide to make an Atari clone, they will just copy the Flashback II chip (no need to spend R&D on a new chip when somebody else already did the work). I think another reason why there's no Atari clones is because Atari was never popular in the Asian markets where all clone chips originate. There may be a niche market in the US and Europe, but there's zero interest in the far East for an Atari clone, and that's where all the clones originate.

 

But don't give up; there's always hope that the Retron 5 will have an Atari VCS port on it.

Edited March 12, 2013 by stardust4ever

[barnieg]

Going back to the original poll I think there should be 2 questions along the lines of:

 

1. Would you support a crowd funded effort to buy the Atari brand and intellectual property?

For this too work it would have to be "owned" by the community to some degree or you get the same problems as before

 

 

2.Would you support a crowd funded effort to produce a 2600 style console

 

 

Unless its a mass produced effort like the flashback how many are going to be sold?

 

I don't think you can succeed with an fpga type design unless its open source - look to the minimig as an example.

 

 

 

 

 

 

T