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Perhaps if the 1983 Coleco ADAM production problems could have been avoided


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Perhaps if the 1983 Coleco ADAM production problems could have been avoided the ADAM computer might not have been discontinued in January of 1985

 

 

Back around June of 1983 when I purchased the Expansion Module #3 Adam computer for $600 for the ColecoVision, it appeared to work fine except for the Smartwriter ROM chips. The electronic typewriter and the printer worked, however as soon as a consumer pressed the escape key to enter the Smartwriter word processor mode the Smartwriter program completely locked up. After I exchanging the ADAM computer 3 times it was determined by Montgomery Wards and Coleco that a bad batch of Smartwriter ROM images had shipped to all or many retail stores. Coleco was in such a rush to get the ADAM released that they somehow ran off a bunch of bad Smartwriter ROMS that had problems. This resulted in the first generation ADAM computers being completely recalled, and damaging the ADAM computers reputation in the eyes of the consumer before Christmas of 1983.

 

The simple Smartwriter ROMS caused all the major problems, and the problem could have been avoided by testing the master batch of ROM images before the computer shipped. It is too bad EEPROM technology did not exist back in 1983. If the Coleco ADAM would have used EEPROM’s for the built in operating system and Smartwriter then Coleco would have been able to solve the problem by issuing a Digital Data Pack to flash the Smartwriter image with a working version. That would have been so awesome if people would have been able to call Coleco customer service on the phone and have Coleco say your computer just needs a software update and we are sending you a free Smartwriter Digital Data Pack update flashing program that will fix the Smartwriter software glitch.

 

The bad Smartwriter ROM that made the word processor unusable was the major problem with the first generation 1983 ADAM’s. Later on in late 1983 and during 1984 Coleco kept improving on the hardware design of the Digital Data Drives and printer to make them more reliable (Also many software versions of Smartwriter and other Coleco programs occurred up until January of 1985). Also the 256K blank Digital Data Packs cassette design was improved. One of the complaints of the high Speed Digital Data Packs was when customers by mistake turned off or on their computer with a Digital Data Pack in the drive, it would sometimes erase or damage a few blocks of data on the tape. Also some consumers would remove or insert a Digital Data Pack tape while the drive was still moving, which resulted in tapes or drives being damaged or destroyed. Digital Data Packs were automatic high speed tapes that were slower when compared to disk drives, but much faster when compared to manual tape drives that other computers used. By the time a much more reliable and faster 5 ¼ inch 160K Coleco disk drive started shipping in 1984 it was too late since the original Smartwriter ROM problem and the Digital Data Drive reliability issues made the ADAM unpopular with mainstream consumers at the time.

 

Also the ADAM printer had a very noisy letter quality daisy wheel printer that contained a built in power supply that powered the entire computer system. If Coleco would have made a ADAM computer with just a power supply and a built in ADAMnet serial/ parallel port then the ADAM would have been more popular in theory. Coleco should have sold the ADAM system without the printer and an ADAM computer package bundle with a standard parallel daisy wheel printer or dot matrix printer.

 

If the ADAM computer would not have had the early production problems and also would have been marketed better at both computer stores and videogame stores, perhaps consumers might have seen a second generation ADAM II computer or a EVE computer by Coleco in the late 80’s. Also the videogame crash of the 1980’s made things difficult for Coleco and others.

 

 

There was a total of 3 different ADAM retail boxes to choose from

 

1. The first retail box for the ADAM computer was the 1983 Expansion module #3 that plugged into the ColecoVision. This was the red ADAM box.

 

2. The second retail box for the ADAM computer was the one designed for the standalone ADAM computer with the built in ColecoVision that contained a composite video output. This was the blue ADAM box.

 

3. The third retail box for the ADAM computer might have been exclusively only sold at Montgomery Wards starting in late 1984. This special retail box contained both the 1982 black ColecoVision that was bundled with the white Expansion module #3 ADAM computer. I wish I would have purchased one of these rare ADAM package bundles because it would be a collectors item today. I cannot remember all the details, however I believe it was bundled with the following items: 1. Donkey Kong cartridge (just like the original ColecoVision), 2. Extra Coleco ADAM printer ribbon cartridge and an extra daisy wheel. To be honest the last time I saw this ADAM box was in 1984 or 1985 so I cannot remember exactly what the extra bonus bundled items were. Does anyone have pictures of this rare third ADAM retail box? How many were made and was it only an exclusive item for Montgomery Wards? It was a very attractive ADAM box that was larger than the other two ADAM retail boxes.

Edited by HDTV1080P
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The Adam was rushed way too much.

There were design issues, manufacturing problems, lack of testing and just plain lack of time for software development.

 

The console required too many boards and CPUs to be cost effective.

 

The expansion slots are all different; it should have had 3 identical slots.

 

SmartBASIC was developed by someone that, to the best of my knowledge, hadn't written a BASIC interpreter before and I'm guessing based on articles he wrote that most of his background was with the 6502 up to that time. At least that seems to be his preference in articles he wrote and the only software I know he published previously was for the Apple II. But then he probably knew AppleSoft BASIC inside out.

 

You had to buy a book on AppleSoft BASIC if you wanted a decent SmartBASIC manual.

 

The core design of the OS and AdamNET was sound. I'm not aware of any bugs in the console AdamNET firmware but the OS clearly underwent many revisions.

 

The tape drive firmware underwent multiple revisions but I'm not sure it was the main cause of tape drive problems at launch that gave the machine a bad name.

 

SmartWriter was a good idea in theory but I don't think it should have been in ROM at launch.

 

Ultimately, I think the daisy wheel printer proved to be more of a liability than an asset.

 

The tape drive was genius... if it had come out a couple years earlier anyway.

A disk drive version should have been released at the same time as the tape systems.

Many the reviews *might* have said "Buy the Disk Drive version" instead of just thrashing the machine.

 

Oh, and COLECO did something that always proved lethal to the survival of machines of that time, they didn't publicly release developer docs.

 

 

BTW, one of my ADAMs came in a plain cardboard box. It was clearly new.

Edited by JamesD
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Video games crash did not killed Coleco

... Coleco actually kill themselves with bad decisions taken

 

Problem was, Coleco was a Toy Company

They bet on their toys instead of video games and computer

 

I do have annual reports for some years and even after 1984, Coleco did spent ALOT of money in franchises/brands

When Arnold Greenberg had quit the CEO position, everything started faling apart

Edited by retroillucid
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theres other problems, I have 3 first hand accounts of plugging in the adam for the first time and the printer going up in smoke, 2 occasions where a new adam out of the box had spring issues on the cassette drives, and you had to fiddle with them

 

does this stuff still happen, heck yea, at best the adam was released as a product while still in its engineering design phases... and that is a poor management / marketing phase

 

did the video game crash help the rush to send a machine out that had not been fully debugged? yea ... but the computer crash started happening a later... its the poor quality of manufacturing and testing that particularly belongs to the adam that caused the slowdown in silicon valley during 85.

 

without a billion and one incompatible crap rushed cash cow machines, it would not have happened, adam was one

Edited by Osgeld
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I think the concept was sound: everything all-in-one, but they pushed too fast on the practical limits of going from idea to market. And they promised everything before anything was ready. And they cut corners. The problems were all pretty much about the corporate decisions, not really so much about the device itself.

 

Plus, you practically have to dedicate a whole table to the thing. And, of course, the Commodore 64 and Apple II were both better designed and better quality.

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I think the concept was sound: everything all-in-one, but they pushed too fast on the practical limits of going from idea to market. And they promised everything before anything was ready. And they cut corners. The problems were all pretty much about the corporate decisions, not really so much about the device itself.

The old it has to be released in time for Christmas sales trap.

 

Plus, you practically have to dedicate a whole table to the thing.

And you didn't for a complete PC of most other brands?

Yeah, the Adam is a little bigger than many but certainly not all machines of that era.

 

And, of course, the Commodore 64 and Apple II were both better designed and better quality.

You have to remember that the Apple II and C64 designs were spread over multiple machines.

 

The Apple II actually started out as the Apple I which was very primitive.

It evolved into the Apple II which isn't much like the Apple II+ and later machines as far as firmware goes.

The first Apple II didn't even have the full color set of the II+ and later machines.

AppleSoft BASIC came on a tape at first and it was mostly written by Microsoft.

AppleSoft II wasn't the same as the original AppleSoft either.

I will give Apple one thing, they have all been reliable.

 

The C64 was based on the BASIC from the VIC 20, which was based on BASIC from the PET, which was originally written by Microsoft.

The C64 character graphics are at least partially based on those in the VIC which has some basis on the PET.

But then there is the painfully slow drive interface firmware due to bugs back in the VIC chip.

And lets look at the initial return rate of the C64 when it first came out. Not exactly what I'd call a shining example of quality at first.

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BTW, one of my ADAMs came in a plain cardboard box. It was clearly new.

 

Yes the Adam colorful retail box was always placed in a Coleco outer cardboard box to protect the retail box before Coleco shipped them to the stores. I have or had a few Coleco cardboard boxes that when I opened them up there was the colorful retail box with the white handle. People that mail ordered their ADAM received the outer cardboard box, however the retail stores normally tossed out the outer cardboard box so the ADAM colorful retail box could be on display (The white handle made it easy to carry, also some stores for security purposes had the ADAM's in the backroom). My first 1983 ADAM that was special ordered in 1983 came with the sealed cardboard box.

Edited by HDTV1080P
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Yes the Adam colorful retail box was always placed in a Coleco outer cardboard box to protect the retail box before Coleco shipped them to the stores. I have or had a few Coleco cardboard boxes that when I opened them up there was the colorful retail box with the white handle. People that mail ordered their ADAM received the outer cardboard box, however the retail stores normally tossed out the outer cardboard box so the ADAM colorful retail box could be on display (The white handle made it easy to carry, also some stores for security purposes had the ADAM's in the backroom). My first 1983 ADAM that was special ordered in 1983 came with the sealed cardboard box.

There was no colorful retail box inside the cardboard box. No carry handles either.

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yea but they didnt have the habbit of erasing media, failed core peripherals, jacked up springs, or catching fire directly out of the box

I think you missed the point. It took several machines to get Commodore to the C64, there were lots of bug fixes along the way and it still wasn't flawless.

 

COLECO clearly rushed things but comparing the ADAM to and Apple II+ or IIe isn't quite fair either.

If you look at the older Apples they don't look quite as polished vs a II+ or later machine.

For a better comparison, look at the Apple III which was also a totally new design. It was a disaster!

 

FWIW, there is no excuse for brand new power supplies burning up when you first plug them in.

It means they weren't tested at the factory and COLECO had QC issues.

I'm guessing management over-committed to retailers.

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There was no colorful retail box inside the cardboard box. No carry handles either.

 

So your ADAM came brand new with only the cardboard box. I never heard that before, what year was that? Perhaps some of the early June 1983 Expansion module #3 ADAM's were rushed to the store before the retail box was even finished?

Edited by HDTV1080P
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I never had a Coleco product catch fire. There must have been some lose metal that shorted out a capacitor in the power supply that came with some peoples ADAM (or something else in the power supply was shorted out). Yes they should have been turned on and tested before being shipped out. Coleco did improve the printer design as time went on. One of my first printers broke in 1983 and needed exchanged. There was so many different circuit board designs and configurations for the ADAM. The early ADAM’s had no or very few heat sinks on the chips. Later on the ADAM’s that shipped with the latest released Smarwriter R80 ROM’s had heat sinks on the main chips on the circuit board that extended the life of the ADAM. Also the ADAM’s started shipping with gray snap on RF shields to place around the external cords. If my memory is correct some ADAM circuit boards had all 4 ROM sockets used while the later ADAM computers only needed to use 3 ROM sockets since the Smartwriter only needed to be placed on 2 ROM chips instead of 3. The EOS 5 operating system in a R80 ADAM was always placed on one ROM chip. Later on the Coleco unreleased EOS 6 operating system on an EPROM was made available by Walters software with the help of a 3rd party ADAM company. EOS 6 fixed bugs over EOS 5. EOS 7 was never finished by Coleco. Walters software a 3rd party software developer for the Coleco ADAM in the late 1980’s made EOS 9 which was the most powerful operating system for the ADAM. EOS 9 was used on ADAM Desktop application which was a eprom that installed from cartridge, Micro Innovations MIB3 card with the optional ADAM Desktop eprom, floppy disk, or Digital Data Pack.

Edited by HDTV1080P
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While the whole lead-up and rush to market is very well known in the case of the ADAM and has been discussed at length, a lot boils down to the corporate heads of Coleco always looking for the next "Hot Thing" to keep the almighty stock prices high and the money flowing in. So the Execs made all the wrong decisions when it came down to the ADAM and due to their errors, many purchasers of the system suffered as well as all the people that had worked so hard to bring the ADAM to fruition in such a short time span.

 

While a valiant attempt to right the ship was made in the early part of 1984 (which lead to a much more reliable system), the Execs pretty much had their collective minds made up that it was time to orphan the system by the summer of '84 and more than likely didn't let the cat out of the bag until January of '85 so that they could move as much stock as possible through the X-Mas '84 season at the highest price possible for a much needed cash influx. They couldn't simply turn their backs on all the retailers with large CV & ADAM stockpiles before the X-Mas '84 season now could they... especially if Coleco wanted the retailers to continue doing business with them and being guaranteed shelf space for other toy products that were to come like the Alf doll, Starcom, Sectaraus, etc. and products that were still in demand like the Cabbage Patch dolls.

 

Growing Pains is what it all boils down to and the ADAM wasn't allowed the time required to mature through them while companies such as Apple and Commodore made much better decisions and afforded their products the necessary time to mature and issues to be corrected.

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So your ADAM came brand new with only the cardboard box. I never heard that before, what year was that? Perhaps some of the early June 1983 Expansion module #3 ADAM's were rushed to the store before the retail box was even finished?

I bought it NOS last fall. It has the 1st(?) version of the tape drive and the original color scheme for the main console. (the later unit I have matches the printer better)

The SmartBasic manual doesn't seem to be an initial release.

<edit>

It's an ADAM, not an expansion module.

Edited by JamesD
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I think you missed the point. It took several machines to get Commodore to the C64, there were lots of bug fixes along the way and it still wasn't flawless.

 

I think you missed the point, as flawed as the other machines were they did not come out of the box erasing tapes and burning out their power supplies, at best the first adams were engineering samples that functioned and thus produced in a hurry to meet deadlines.

 

yes it takes time for systems to be perfected cause you can never tell whats going to happen when you mass produce the things, 2 samples on the bench does not expose a 10ppm error, a years worth of testing may start catching bugs then revisions follow, but it was clearly not even that well advanced before it hit the line to consumers.

 

over all its a poorly designed machine, could anyone do better? heck yea, can anyone do better in the time frame allotted even with CV experience? Heck no, thats poor management.

 

by the time adam came out there was almost a decade of z80 computers on the market and coleco had a handful of years making a sucessful machine, the adam was just super rushed and it failed due to its early stages ... which along with other machines (that didnt make the folklore) nearly crashed the pc market just about a year later than the console market.

 

would it have mattered if it came out later, NO in 84 you had the mac unleashed, shortly thereafter 16 bit atari's and amiga's ... if it came out later it was stillborn, it was practically dead in the water when it came out compared to other machines.

 

I love the CV but man the adam had so little to offer for what problems it presents AS a computer and not just an expanded video game with a printer.

Edited by Osgeld
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After owning the ColecoVision in 1982 which only played up to 32K game cartridges, I bought the ADAM expansion module #3 in 1983 so that I could play Coleco Supergames on 256K Digital Data Packs, and later on floppy disks. Since it was my very first computer that owned I started to enjoy the Smartkey word processor and programming in SmartBasic, etc. Back in 1983 the high speed automatic tape drive (Digital Data Drive) was a very unique exclusive product for those consumers that were use to manual slow loading tape drives for other systems.

 

Perhaps if Coleco would have released the Supergame module in 1983 for $200 instead of the ADAM computer, things may have been different for Coleco. However one would have still had Digital Data Packs or some other tape system similar to the wafer drive which was cheaper then cartridges but less reliable. I always wondered if the Supergame module released on its own instead of being built in the ADAM, might have greatly grown the demand for the ColecoVision Supergames. Many more Supergames would have been made if the ADAM did not exist and Coleco spent most of there time on Supergame development instead of trying to make computer hardware and software products.

 

If Coleco would have waited until 1984 or 1985 to design the ADAM computer it might have been a 16 bit computer with a built in floppy drive. If the ADAM would have shipped with disk drives instead of a Digital Data Drive I beleive Coleco's outcome might have been different.

Edited by HDTV1080P
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I love the Adam, but there's always been a few things that puzzled me.

 

1). Why did they spend so much R&D on making a cheap tape drive? If they had spent that much energy on making a lower cost floppy drive, would that have affected the price of the unit much? We didn't need a state-of-the-art floppy drive... Single Sided Single Density would have sufficed.

 

2). Since they had little intent on updating SmartBASIC, why give it on tape? How much more would it have cost to come on cartridge? Or make it an upgrade purchase (say, $20 for BASIC on cart).

 

3). And yes, the lack of developer docs and tools did almost as much damage as the rush to market did. Worse systems had better overall lives because of third party software.

 

Other things have been talked to death, like the power supply in the printer, word processor on startup, daisywheel versus dot matrix... with the exception of the power supply I don't think they were bad ideas. My parents loved the idea of having a typewriter (they barely understood the value of a word processing system, but they understood typewriters), and I think that sold a lot of machines.

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Someone once told me that low cost floppy disk drive technology was not made available until 1984. If that is true then all Coleco needed to do is wait one more year to release the ADAM system with a disk drive instead of offering Digital Data Drives (high speed tape drives). The second Digital Data Drive list price was $99.99 in 1983, and according to the 1984 Montgomery Wards catalog they were charging $149.99 for the extra Digital Data Drive. Then in 1984 Coleco released the low cost 160K single sided 5 ¼ inch floppy drive for a list price of $199.99. Therefore, in 1984 the disk drive only raised the price of the overall ADAM system in additional $50-$100 compared to the price of a second Digital Data Drive. The only advantage of the Digital Data Packs is that they held 256K worth of data. There were some ADAM games and programs that used almost 256K of space which prevented some game programs from being released on floppy disk. Coleco did release some ADAM applications on two floppy disks when the program was over 160K. What the ADAM really needed was a double sided 5 ¼ inch floppy drive that was 320K or 360K. Coleco had a prototype double sided 5 ¼ inch drive. Years later Micro Innovations made a 320K and 360K double sided 5 ¼ inch disk drive for the ADAM computer.

 

What is very interesting is that Coleco designed a 3.25 inch disk drive prototype that used ADAMnet and according to the pictures it looks like a dual 3.25 inch disk drive external enclosure was planned. One picture even shows the Coleco ADAM without the Digital Data Drives and instead two Coleco 3.25 inch disk drives are located inside the memory console. In the late 80’s Micro Innovations released both a 720K and 1.44MB 3.5 inch disk drives for the ADAM computer. The 1.44MB floppy drive read both 1.44MB and 720K floppy disks. Walters software and a few other third party software developers for the ADAM released software on 3.5 inch disks for the ADAM computer. Sometimes the 3.5 inch disks was a special order since the majority of ADAM users that owned disk drives were using either the original Coleco 160K 5 ¼ floppy drive or the Micro Innovations 5 ¼ inch 320K floppy drive that also read the original Coleco 160K floppy disks. Coleco should have mass produced a 3.25 inch, 3.5 inch, or a 5 ¼ inch 320K floppy disk drive. Instead, it looks like Coleco wanted to save the consumer money by using a high speed automatic tape drive called the Digital Data Drive. In 1984 the Coleco 160K 5 ¼ inch Disk Drive only added a maximum of $100 to the cost of the ADAM compared to the Digital Data Drive. Even if the disk drive back in 1983 would have added $200-$300 to the cost of the ADAM it would have been worth it in the long run. Coleco could have gotten rid of the bundled printer and Digital Data Drive and instead bundled the system with a disk drive for around the same list price in theory. The printer should have been the optional item to purchase for $200+ instead of the disk drive. On the other hand, Coleco could have waited until 1984 and released the ADAM with both a disk drive and a Adamnet serial/parallel interface for $600 and $800 for a bundled printer option.

 

There was even a 1200 baud Coleco modem prototype that was planned for the ADAM which would have been an improvement over the released 300 baud Coleco modem. Year’s later people started using the MIB3 interface from Micro Innocations which allowed third party 2400 baud, 9600 baud, and 19200 baud modems to be used while the ADAM was connected to a 80 column terminal.

 

Also Walters Software did release the Coleco ADAM SmartBasic on a cartridge in the late 80’s for around $25. That was a popular item for ADAM owners.

Edited by HDTV1080P
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The Adam was rushed way too much.

There were design issues, manufacturing problems, lack of testing and just plain lack of time for software development.

 

 

SmartBASIC was developed by someone that, to the best of my knowledge, hadn't written a BASIC interpreter before and I'm guessing based on articles he wrote that most of his background was with the 6502 up to that time. At least that seems to be his preference in articles he wrote and the only software I know he published previously was for the Apple II. But then he probably knew AppleSoft BASIC inside out.

 

You had to buy a book on AppleSoft BASIC if you wanted a decent SmartBASIC manual.

 

BTW, one of my ADAMs came in a plain cardboard box. It was clearly new.

 

I actually emailed back and forth with the author of the first SmartBASIC manual. He sent me the disks containing the original files he wrote on for the manual. They were written on a Televideo 802 computer with another funky disk drive configuration. I have not found any conversion program or someone to transfer them to text files we can use. AND you are totally correct, he knew nothing about the ADAM, had never seen one, or used it. It was totally a seat of the pants manual based on what he knew about other computers Basic programming languages. The plain cardboard box is intriguing, although you could throw away the blue box and the styrofoam inserts containing the ADAM would fit perfectly.

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1). Why did they spend so much R&D on making a cheap tape drive? If they had spent that much energy on making a lower cost floppy drive, would that have affected the price of the unit much? We didn't need a state-of-the-art floppy drive... Single Sided Single Density would have sufficed.

Because a cheap tape drive probably would have cost $30 or less once production ramped up. A floppy probably wouldn't have been under $100.

 

2). Since they had little intent on updating SmartBASIC, why give it on tape? How much more would it have cost to come on cartridge? Or make it an upgrade purchase (say, $20 for BASIC on cart).

I don't think they intended to abandon SmartBASIC until machine sales tanked. But then they probably didn't expect it to have so many bugs either.

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I love the Adam, but there's always been a few things that puzzled me.

Me too on both accounts! :thumbsup:

 

1). Why did they spend so much R&D on making a cheap tape drive? If they had spent that much energy on making a lower cost floppy drive, would that have affected the price of the unit much? We didn't need a state-of-the-art floppy drive... Single Sided Single Density would have sufficed.

This foray into the creation of the Digital Data Drives/Packs was the spill over effect of the failed Super Game Module/Wafer Tape especially since countless hours of R&D and money were invested in a cheap tape alternative to the much more expensive cartridge alternative. What the big bosses want, they get, even if it's not the best of options. As JamesD also mentioned, once the DDD was finally deemed reliable and ready (well actually 2 more revisions ended up being released) and JVC was in place to manufacture them, the cost would have been considerably cheaper than a Disk Drive alternative. Plus, there was still a lot to be decided as far as what type of Disk Drive was to be made for the ADAM... 3.25" 256K, 5.25" 320K or 360K or what Coleco eventually decided on to keep the price reasonable, the 5.25" 160 SSDD drive. This ADAM F.D.D. was not cheap either as it initially sold for $249.95 in the States and $299.95 on up in Canada.

 

2). Since they had little intent on updating SmartBASIC, why give it on tape? How much more would it have cost to come on cartridge? Or make it an upgrade purchase (say, $20 for BASIC on cart).

There was no intent to update/correct all the bugs and issues in SmartBASIC v1.0 by Coleco, which were taken care of by end-users for the most part with numerous patches and hacks over the years, but they knew they had a problem and Laser MicroSystems was in the process of developing SmartBASIC v2.0. Unfortunately when Coleco pulled the plug on the ADAM, further development of SB v2.0 ceased as well, although Coleco released it to Public Domain and this version is very stable as well as offers a lot of extra options... it's just lacking good documentation which again the end-users over the years took it upon themselves to supply through trial and error, hacking into it, disassembling, etc.

 

A cartridge version of SB v1.0 would have been deemed to expensive to produce and supply with the ADAM compared to the miniscule cost of supplying it on DDP.

 

3). And yes, the lack of developer docs and tools did almost as much damage as the rush to market did. Worse systems had better overall lives because of third party software.

A huge blunder by Coleco Execs.

Edited by NIAD
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BTW, one of my ADAMs came in a plain cardboard box. It was clearly new.

When you say "plain", you mean completely void of any text or other markings on the box? As was mentioned and as you probably know, the Red and Blue ADAM boxes were shipped to retailers in a brown corrugated box with Coleco emblems and text on them, but it sounds like your "plain" box is the size of the inner box and not this brown corrugated box. Seeing as it also sounds like everything fits in this box just the same as a retail box and there is no handle, maybe you have two bottoms but without the handle slits.

 

At the end when everything was being liquidated, anything was possible to get thrown together for no rhyme or reason.

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