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Ross PK

What type of HD TV do old games look best on?

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Shouldn't matter. They all use similar technology. Perhaps plasma because it's need to refresh versus LCD screens ability to retain an image is closer to CRT technology. LCD and LED are the same by the way, Some people swear there's a difference but really it's just different back lighting in most cases.

 

I have my consoles modded to have composite input and I think they look good. Actually the one I'm least impressed with is the only one that came with composite, the Sega Genesis. It's image is softer for some reason.

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I wouldn't want to display a lot of pillarboxed stuff on even a 2013 plasma. They're still susceptible to IR and if you're regularly pillarboxing material, it can permanently affect the screen over time and on the rare occasion you actually utilize it for something that's 16:9, it could be noticeable.

 

There's enough warnings out there that I stay away. But it does seem to offer the best picture and the least motion blur. Scaling and lag though is all on the internal scaling chip and isn't a result of the screen technology but rather a byproduct of current technology having fixed pixel displays that force material to be scaled to its native resolution.

 

Stay away from anything advertised as a monitor though. Since it's so easy to set your PC resolution to match the monitor's native resolution, they tend to really cheapen out on the internal scaling chip. It's very unlikely that you would get a pleasing picture on something like a LCD computer monitor with a console such as a Sega Genesis.

Edited by Atariboy

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LCD and LED are the same by the way, Some people swear there's a difference but really it's just different back lighting in most cases.

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

There's no such thing as an LED TV and is something retailers and manufacturers should be more clear about. Unlike Plasma displays, LCD televisions require a a separate light source, as the panels do not product light. in current sets, the light source is either incandescent or LED. LED backlighting is much brighter and produces an overall better image than incandescent backlights. LED backlights also make features like local dimming possible.

 

I'm more than happy with the way my consoles look on my Sony 55HX750. Some people don't like how consoles look on new displays due to the lack of interlacing effects. If it bothers you that much, you can always buy scaler like the Framemeister XRGB-mini.

 

There's also the concern of lag, but that isn't an issue with current generation displays, unless you're getting a no-name Walmart/Costco special.

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My old gaming CRT TV crapped out a couple months ago, so I bought a cheap 18.5" LED/LCD TV. All I gotta say is it looks much better than my old CRT TV! The only thing is there is a very slight delay in controls, the pixels are slightly more noticeable and there is very slight after-ghosting/blur. But it's still an overall much better picture than the old CRT with better clarity and more vibrant colors, not to mention the much larger variety in options/changes you can make to the TV picture & sound. There are a plethora of connections on the back too.

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I've got a 42" 1080p LCD made by Hitachi, I think retro games actually look pretty nice on it, I've not noticed a bad amount of input lag either. I'm pretty happy with it. (I run all of my consoles through RGB SCART if they are capable of it).

 

When I've got more space though I will get a nice CRT, even if I like my HDTV a CRT would probably still be better for retro gaming.

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A HD CRT. Other than that i don't know.

 

NONE. SD CRT is the best answer, because it is cheaper. While SD CRT games may look ok on an HD CRT, why waste the time, effort, and expense on an HD CRT when it looks no better? So while - *technically* the answer to the specific question may be which kind of *HDTV* classic games look best on is HDCRT, it should likewise be noted that the HD part isn't required, as far as classic games which were NOT HD to begin with, but WERE intended to be displayed on a CRT. My solution is to play SDTV games that were designed for CRTs on SD CRTs that are a dime-a-dozen, and HDTV games on LCD HDTVs. This works out pretty well. No need to start a feeding frenzy for HD CRTs (big, expensive clunky things that they are) where none is necessary. Most classic games don't need HD, so why bother? For those that do, use an LCD. My opinion, but I could be wrong. But I'd like to know why.

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Thanks guys.

 

I'll give some more info, I live in a PAL country and the systems I have are an Atari 8-Bit, N64, Dreamcast and PS2, I use my PS2 and Dreamcast the most.

 

I'm not really interested in a CRT TV, because I'm planning on getting a computer desk at some point and a CRT would probably be too heavy for it, unless I was to get a small portable which I'm not really interested in.

 

So for the older consoles, the more higher the refresh rate the better? And should I go for 720p or full 1080p? I'm thinking maybe the higher the 'p' the worse the games will look since the games are at a low resolution.

Edited by Ross PK

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My old gaming CRT TV crapped out a couple months ago, so I bought a cheap 18.5" LED/LCD TV. All I gotta say is it looks much better than my old CRT TV! The only thing is there is a very slight delay in controls, the pixels are slightly more noticeable and there is very slight after-ghosting/blur. But it's still an overall much better picture than the old CRT with better clarity and more vibrant colors, not to mention the much larger variety in options/changes you can make to the TV picture & sound. There are a plethora of connections on the back too.

 

I really really don't like the idea of there being a delay in the controls.

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Since all systems can be hooked up using rgb a lcd could work. The dreamcast can be hooked up to a lcd tv using a dreamcast to vga cable. for the n64 and PS2 a good rgb cable would be enough to connect to a lcd. using a rgb cable to scart for the atari 8 bit would also be the best option.

a good 720p lcd with fast refresh rate (often called gamemode on a lcd) would be best.

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I really really don't like the idea of there being a delay in the controls.

 

You'll get used to it pretty quick ;) I noticed it when I first started playing games on the new TV. Took me a few minutes to get used to the "new" hit detection in games. I'd say (guess) the screen delay is at most 1/5 sec. behind the controller actions. But like I said -- you will get used to it.

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Mame can use black frame insertion so it displays 60fps as 120fps with every other frame a black one. This should reduce motion blur (or eliminate if the monitor has a scanning backlight). It would be nice to see this feature on lcd monitors. Source: http://www.blurbusters.com/software-based-black-frame-insertion-improves-motion-clarity-in-mame/

Edited by roland p

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So for the older consoles, the more higher the refresh rate the better? And should I go for 720p or full 1080p? I'm thinking maybe the higher the 'p' the worse the games will look since the games are at a low resolution.

 

1080p, 120hz refresh rate or better (or whatever else is provided at a similar level for PAL folks).

 

To get the best image quality, you will want something with a high refresh rate (which will help with ghosting/blurring), in combination with a xRGB device (like the xRGB Mini). The xRGB device will convert the RGB signal to HDMI, upscale it appropriately, and you won't have any controller delay or lag with your games since it's going through the HDMI port. Video quality will look perfect, almost like you are playing on an emulator (but nope, it's the real pixels being output--they just look incredible, perfect).

 

Keep in mind, without a high quality upscaler, all of your classic games are going to look terrible on any LCD screen. So there is no pleasant way of doing this unless you go either strictly emulation (i.e., have a PC hooked up to the television), or you buy an expensive upscaler.

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Well I went to the shops today and got one, there didn't seem to be any 720p ones that were in my price range and were the size that I wanted.

 

I ended up talking to the shop assistant and it turns out he is a retro gamer himself, and has lots of the old systems! He said that they will look good on pretty much any HD TV, and that obviously the bigger the screen the more pixelated the games will look. He said that they would probably look better in 720p and that the refresh rate probably wouldn't make any difference.

 

There were two TV's that I was interested in, a Panasonic (can't remember if it was LCD or LED) 1080p with a 50hz refresh rate, and a Samsung LED 1080p with a 100hz refresh rate. I ended up picking the Panasonic since the picture quality did seem to look quite a lot crisper and brighter than the Samsung, plus Panasonic seems to be a good brand and the TV itself looked like it was of a decent build quality, whereas the Samsung looks a little cheap, and I don't really know whether Samsung is a good brand either. But I was kind of tempted to go with the Samsung since it had the higher refresh rate.

 

Anyway, he went into the back but unfortunatley they had sold out of the Panasonic ones, so I ended up getting the Samsung http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-UE32F5000-32-inch-Widescreen-Freeview/dp/B00BP58C1S/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 

I have honestly no idea why I didn't just ask when they would be getting in more of the Panasonics, and just come back and get one once they had got some more in.

 

I've tried several games on the Samsung at home, and some look okay, not too bad at all, but certain others look really terrible, 16 bit style 2D games look very blotchy like all the detail has kind of been smeared out, Vice City looks the same also, and with some games when there is movement on the screen the graphics look kind of blurred/smeared out, and then once the whatever was moving stops, it becomes more sharper and detailed again, like a camera going into focus. I ended up feeling really tempted to take it back, and then get the Panasonic one when they get more of them in, but there is a chance that the games may look even worse on the Panasonic, plus the refresh rate is lower.

 

So I guess it might be best to just keep this one, and get one of those xRGB devices or something similar, it's nice to see that it has got really postive reviews on Amazon anyway.

Edited by Ross PK

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I'm going to disagree with Austin and agree with the salesperson. Refresh rate is a red herring in most cases. The Samsung is blurring because it's using software to smooth the motion.

 

CMR or clear motion rate (the number on the box) is NOT the refresh rate. It's actually a Samsung marketing term and isn't relevant to any real world numbers. If the saleman didn't explain that then return the TV and buy elsewhere as he is probably violating the trades descriptions act. Your TVs refresh rate is really 50. Turn off all motion enhancement and see if that fixes the problem.

 

The short version is that

-the console is sending a signal that is 50 frames a second.

-Your eye sees between 24-60 depending on who you ask (movies are 24 and look fine).

-LCD screens don't need to "refresh" because they can hold a static image indefinably. They only need to "change" when needed to display motion. Changing more than 50 frames a second would be just guessing so don't let it.

- always use native resolution when possible including refresh rate. 120hz is mostly just a way to keep TV prices high

 

You at the very least need to have a stern talk with the salesman again.

 

edit--

 

Fair disclosure, I sell TV's for a living. I always disclose all facts to customers including the clear motion rate issue.

Edited by mkiker2089

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While SD CRT games may look ok on an HD CRT, why waste the time, effort, and expense on an HD CRT when it looks no better?

 

If you had the systems RGB modded and connected to a HD CRT through a high quality upscaler device, the picture will actually look a lot better on a 4x3 HD CRT than it will on a standard CRT with composite or s-video. You will be able to make out every pixel. It is an expensive route to take though for the upscaler. The HD CRTs themselves are cheap, nobody wants them anymore.

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I was going to say CRT (I have a 720p 3/4 CRT from about 7 years ago, it's amazing IMO) But since you can't get a CRT now.....

 

I'd say LCD first. A few years back I would have put this format last, but they are a TON better now. I'm actually thinking of getting one of the newer LCD's to replace my CRT, but I'll keep the CRT. Black/white and the quality of colors are the best now.

 

Plasma would be second. It looks the most like and old school TV, if ALL you are going to do on it is play old games, yeah, get one, but if you want to use it for anything else, then you would probably rather have an LCD. Again, a few years ago, I'd put this first, but like I said, quality of LCD has just gotten that much better.

 

LED are nice, they are just LCD TV's but feature more power efficient LED instead of Florescent panel. The better LED's even feature regional back lighting to get even blacker blacks on those dark scenes, or scenes with lots of alternating brightnesses.

 

Ask friends, and some stores might not mind if you bought a console to hook up to one...

 

[edit] oh yeah, meant to say, since most people don't want those "clunky shitty heavy bastards" of CRT TV's, I'd look in your local swap listings. Despite there being nothing wrong with them, many people will simply give away a SD or HD CRT because they are upgrading to the newer flat panel TV's. Keep an eye out, you can get a great deal....just be sure to bring friends, my 27" RCA HD CRT weighs about 100 pounds (no kidding)

Edited by Video

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Well, it turned out that the picture quality wasn't that great on the Samsung when watching TV shows either, one minute when I'm watching a show it could look too faded and washed out, and then if the scene changed it could suddenly end up looking the opposite (dark bits looking way too dark, bright bits looking too bright, and the colours looking too strong), I would also notice slight tracers whenever anything moved on the screen too. I messed around with the settings for hours, but could never really get it to look right.

 

I knew if I settled for it I'd never really be happy with it, so I took it back and got a Panasonic Viera instead (which was the one that I really wanted to get in the first place, and they had just got some more in stock), all I've got to say is that the picture quality when watching TV is great, and when playing the older consoles on it they almost look as though they could be on a CRT.

 

There was a temporary offer on the TV (original price £299) and I got it for £249 which is £40 cheaper than the Samsung.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFsvGp-6JQA

Edited by Ross PK
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You'll get used to it pretty quick ;) I noticed it when I first started playing games on the new TV. Took me a few minutes to get used to the "new" hit detection in games. I'd say (guess) the screen delay is at most 1/5 sec. behind the controller actions. But like I said -- you will get used to it.

You can't "get used" to laggy controls. You might stop noticing that you suck, but your reaction time is decreased. Since the average reaction time is already about .2s, adding another .2 seconds is a huge problem. There is absolutely no way you can mentally compensate for being .2s behind the action.

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You can't "get used" to laggy controls. You might stop noticing that you suck, but your reaction time is decreased. Since the average reaction time is already about .2s, adding another .2 seconds is a huge problem. There is absolutely no way you can mentally compensate for being .2s behind the action.

 

Completely disagree. Like I said, I got used to the controls after a few minutes on the new TV. Some games respond differently/much quicker/etc. than other games because they are programmed that way! Take Montezuma's Revenge on CV. It has stupid-fast/touchy controls. Then take Smurf Rescue also on CV. It's controls are noticeably slower/delayed. Again: they are programmed that way. My point is that even without the new TV "lag", some games respond slower, some quicker, and ppl manage to adapt to them...

 

Humans are adaptable. I "compensated" for the slight lag in controls by anticipating the timing on the controllers. It works after some practice. Now, I don't even think about it because it is natural for me.

I think part of that lag (mostly on my CV) is because I have the controllers hooked up thru the Roller Controller trackball so I can set them close by or in my lap. I have no problems with any system on my newer LED TV because I am used to it. ;) And it doesn't interfere with my "gaming" on the big CRT in the other room playing my NES or TG-16, either.

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