thallium196 Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Hey guys witch game is the one that pushes jaguar to the max or close to it? ( i think this post might be up already but i couldent find it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I was thinking the same thing. Everyone says Battlesphere, and while it's an excellent game, does it really push the Jag to its utmost limits (I honestly don't know)? Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+davidcalgary29 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Club Drive? There's got to be a reason why it sucks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Yes, Battlesphere is great, and it pushes the Jaguar in a lot of ways, but I don't think it's pushing it to it's limit (ducks to avoid T-birds wrath). Here's my reasoning: Battlesphere takes place basically in empty space, there's not a whole lot besides the ships and bases and some minor debri for the Jaguar to worry about (of course BS, and any game for that matter, has all that A.I. and and other caluculations going on "behind the scenes", stuff you don't "see"). Just look at HoverStrike and SpaceWar 2K for a perfect example; HoverStrike has a TON of stuff going on and the Jaguar has to render the planet surface, as well as the objects and all that texture mapping, SpaceWar 2K uses the same graphic engine, but without the planet surface to worry about rendering, it moves lightning fast compared to HS! But that brings us to another point: what do you mean by "pushng to the limits?" If you mean making the Jaguar do the absolute maximum it can do, then HoverStrike CD probably does that, it's obviously trying to make the Jag do more than it can really handle fluidly, or the frame rate would be better, but it has fantastic texture mapping (better than the cart version), all that light-sourcing, and shading and a lot of other stuff going on at once. If you mean pushing to the maximum limit of where the Jaguar can still handle it all at a good frame-rate, then look to Battlemorph, Iron Soldier 2 and possibly Skyhammer. they all have worlds to render, plus everything else too. But this is all on the POLYGON side of the Jag, it can be "pushed to the max" in other types of graphics too, like the voxels and pre-rendered sprites of PhaseZero, or the 2D stuff like Rayman, Native, Raiden, Defender 2k, Protector/SE...etc., etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I was thinking the same thing. Everyone says Battlesphere, and while it's an excellent game, does it really push the Jag to its utmost limits (I honestly don't know)? Tempest Lots of people like to talk about how games like Hoover Strike and that lot are somehow pushing the Jaguar harder because they try and render a planet scene and BattleSphere takes place in space... Truth be told, games like Hover Struck clip the horizon so close to the viewer that they basically don't render all that much. When you get right up close to a starbase (or several of them) in BattleSphere, you're basically looking at more polygons onscreen than the typical planet-based scene in other games. Yet, in BattleSphere, the Warp Polygon Engine doesn't slow down so badly like it does in other games with a lot of polygons onscreen. The fact of the matter is that Atari's polygon games all used Atari's polygon engines, which were horribly inefficient and spent a lot of time doing nothing but waiting for the blitter, etc. BattleSphere takes advantage of waiting periods to actually accomplish useful tasks. The fact that even the smallest gaps are completely filled in with useful things in BattleSphere sets it quite far ahead of other Jag polygon games. I'd suggest that Iron Soldier II and BattleSphere are probably the most efficient games in terms of getting the most out of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someguy Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Tbird, it seems to me that a couple years back I saw you write something along the lines that even BattleSphere only took advantage of perhaps 60% of a Jaguar's full potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Tbird, it seems to me that a couple years back I saw you write something along the lines that even BattleSphere only took advantage of perhaps 60% of a Jaguar's full potential. I don't know why I would say a thing like that. I'm sure that if we started again from scratch we could get some improvement in performance, and we've stated this in the past, but we're nowhere near 60% potential. That's way below what I would have ever believed or stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagMX Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Id say IS2 and Skyhammer are 2 games that uses alot of the jags potential, Highlander uses most of it to, (if they only used better lookin polygon characters tho ) i would add Rayman in there also, but istill think they couldve added more sounds in the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I was thinking the same thing. Everyone says Battlesphere, and while it's an excellent game, does it really push the Jag to its utmost limits (I honestly don't know)? Tempest Lots of people like to talk about how games like Hoover Strike and that lot are somehow pushing the Jaguar harder because they try and render a planet scene and BattleSphere takes place in space... Truth be told, games like Hover Struck clip the horizon so close to the viewer that they basically don't render all that much. When you get right up close to a starbase (or several of them) in BattleSphere, you're basically looking at more polygons onscreen than the typical planet-based scene in other games. Yet, in BattleSphere, the Warp Polygon Engine doesn't slow down so badly like it does in other games with a lot of polygons onscreen. The fact of the matter is that Atari's polygon games all used Atari's polygon engines, which were horribly inefficient and spent a lot of time doing nothing but waiting for the blitter, etc. BattleSphere takes advantage of waiting periods to actually accomplish useful tasks. The fact that even the smallest gaps are completely filled in with useful things in BattleSphere sets it quite far ahead of other Jag polygon games. I'd suggest that Iron Soldier II and BattleSphere are probably the most efficient games in terms of getting the most out of the system. Point taken. But, if those starbases are using as many polys as the surface of planets in other games, regardless of clipping, it seems to me that you should be able to get a lot closer to them and actually, skim or"fly" along the surface of those bases, but you can only get close enough that the star base covers the screen (or maybe two or three screens worth if one could see it all), and you crash into them, if you stay far enough away not to crash, your hardly "skimming the surface." I'm not being critical about what you said, just want some clarification on this point. Even in 'Shadow Squadron' on the 32x, I can skim along the surface of the big ships or bases and it has the effect of something like a Star Wars movie, flying over a Stardestroyer. That's the 32x, which IS less powerful Poly-wise than the Jag! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Also.. most of the Jag games were 1st generation-style games. And TBird is right I'm sure about Atari's crappy polygon whatnot! Atari just wanted to push everything out the door and expected it to fly like a Falcon (how strange? ) and well, that just doesn't work. TBird... I'm not sure how many really "serious" programmers there are out there for the Jag currently (if any) but would you ever let others use your Polygon (ha, I put Polygod Engine for use with their games? If it's as efficient as you state, it could be a real good thing, espeicially where speed is concerned. Of course, I could see how hard it would be to just hand anyone your hard work for their instant gratification... however even then it wouldn't be so instant I dont think. Damn, I really really need to put aside some time to learning programming for the Jag, even as hard and riddled as everyone claims it to be or not.... I think it would be really great to get a team of like 2 Programmers that can obviously program the Jag, and then a few artists, musician or 2 (I can do music , and 1-2 dedicated people coming up with the design (storyboard?) with everyone contributing a part. It's a lot of people and there may not be too much of a reward except that you helped make a game but for fun... would obviously be a great learning expeirience too. Everyones so diehard to attack the 2600 in making games, now where's the diehards for the Jag!? -aside from the fact that a 2600 game can be programmed in no time- Clint Thompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Yeah I guess my question should be refined a bit. What game pushes the Jag to its limits AND keeps the framerate high enough so the game is playable. Battlesphere would probably win that title hands down. Tempest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper_Eye Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Highlander and Iron Soldier 2 definitely. Just plain awesome I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXG/MNX Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Hmm Battlesphere Gold, Iron Soldier 2 and World Tour Racing are good examples I think of games that use the Jag real good. But it always get better, like on the 8-bit the first demo's we saw where simple scrollers with sound. And it was impossible to load a new part of a demo and do any graphical effects and sounds.... Now we know better.... rotating cubes, morphing, gourand shading textures and all other kinds of stuff you see in pc demo's all done on a 1.79mhz 64Kb system... I agree most computers have 1st generation games and later they improve but the Jag has lost a lot of active programmers otherwise we had seen more better quality games I think... But although Rayman is maybe not using the maximum of the JAG I would gave it five stars for the colorfull graphics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper_Eye Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Argh! I need World Tour racing! I had a chance to pick it up at KB Toy's a couple of years ago for like 20 bucks but I didn't have a Jag CD at the time! Damnit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXG/MNX Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Argh! I need World Tour racing! I had a chance to pick it up at KB Toy's a couple of years ago for like 20 bucks but I didn't have a Jag CD at the time! Damnit! I must say it's a nice game but 2 player mode it's sometimes hard to keep your car on the track. The movement is really good also the audio track that's being played... But I think the Jag can do even better.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I agree with you about the Jag CD being able to do better! Can you even really say there were any 1st generation games for the JagCD? (beta generation) It's really ashame they didn't PUSH PUSH PUSH on the JagCD, because it could have held it's own if Atari would have done it right. I'm not sure why they didn't just add 2mb of ram in the JagCD (4mb total) and killer push CD Titles... especially fighting games like MK3...and push to have Virtua Fighter and other Saturn titles through the agreement done on the Jag... I wish my Battlemorph didn't get so scratched up last year when I was in the apartment I love that game... and the Bee level was so awesome! Dark, and atmospheric music... really cool!! WTR is alright... but I don't think it really pushes the Jag... and if it is then I fear somethings wrong. Super Burnout is blazing fast and extremely crisp in graphics! Skiing and Snowboarding.. same.. Clint Thompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXG/MNX Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Hmm the JAG can be boosted I think. Should be cool when someone develops a memory upgrade that uses the banked memory technique... memory modules for 100Mhz are cheap like 32Mb or 64Mb sdram... But in 4Mb you can do alot, but as I understand correctly the only way to code for the Jag is assembly and that's pretty hard sometimes. When the Jag did support C and/or other languages it would be much better to write more complex programs. TXG/MNX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtboy69 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 i don't think that any game has really pushed the system as far as it could go being that it wasn't around long enough for it to get to that point. if the system had been around as long as say the playstation. maybe we would of seen it's true power. my point is the system (jag) was around for what all but three years saying that a game pushes it to it's limits would be like saying that final fantasy 7 was pushing the ps one to it's limits cause after the first couple of years that was probably the best looking game for it. i think as homebrewing for the system increases and people find new things to tweak out a bit more power the jag could of really done some nice things and probably could of been on point with the playstation and maybe n64. just like playstation in it's lasts couple of years showed with games like ff8 and ff9 that it could still have some tricks up it's sleve. i think there is still alot that the jag could show us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 But in 4Mb you can do alot, but as I understand correctly the only way to code for the Jag is assembly and that's pretty hard sometimes. When the Jag did support C and/or other languages it would be much better to write more complex programs. The 68K can be coded in C. You have to use ASM for Tom and Jerry though Don't ask me any questions about it though, I don't know C Stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Symmetry of TNG Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Just a thought about the Polygon Engine in BS. I remember T-bird talking about this some time ago (might be months,years,..=) and saying that even if he "clipped out" the polyengine it would be verry hard to read/understand ..for some reason (lack of commenting? I for one would sattle for a Detailed Technical description of "How we made BS/BSG" ...TechTalk ala ST-demos-tyle kind of thing. Like: edgebuffer in gpuram,3edge,irq based blitt stack, what dsp does what gpu does, OP, "BlitterHack" (now what is that?????),.. whatever.... ..Why? ...well in order for coders to get some coding tipps and not having to 1st invent a theory just to discover it is to slow. If he aims for similar structure of things as in BS he atleast know what approximately to get out of his code... Something to put on your Homepage, eyh T-bird? I for one would be your 1st "subscriber" =) Just a thought/wish/.... cheers /Sym Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 for me, skyhammer is the most impressive texture mapped poly pusher ive seen in a game on the jag (just hardware/graphics wise,) as far as being an actual good playable game w/ tmapped 3d that looks better than any other game on the system (aside from skyhammer,), missle command 3d wins by far, and iron soldier 2 places an honorable second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeefMan Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 What about Zero5? I thought that game was pretty impressive for the Jag. Check it out here: http://www.ataritimes.com/jaguar/reviews/r.../rev_zero5.html [/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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