Questions and Impressions -- Commodore 128D

[SoulBlazer]

Got a few questions for the Commodore people here -- I could not have been the ONLY one to have one of these great systems!

 

I have really fond memories of this cause it was the first computer I had at home. I was just a kid, but my parents copied a bunch of games from other people who had them, and we also subscribed to a disk-by-mail magazine called Loadstar for many years. It was great getting programs, articles, games, and what not for the system every month. We never used 128 mode much, but Loadstar did publish a 128 version of the mag, and there were a few games that used the upgraded mode.

 

Even though we finally got a clone PC in 1989, that C128D remained in heavy use until we got a better PC with Prodigy in 1993. I finally left it behind when I went to college in September 1994, and the system was eventuly sold, along with all the disks.

 

In many ways, the system reminds me of a modern one in how it was made....compared to many other classic computers, that had all the 'guts' packed into the keyboard, it was a modern looking flat white box, that we sat the Commodore monitor on top, and the keyboard could either go on the desk or be pulled down into your lap. It also had the faster 1581 drive, which cut down on the terrible load time that I had seen on my friends C64's.

 

So, I've asked my Dad some of this but he doesn't recall after all these years, so wanted to ask here....

 

1) When was this actually released? I would SWEAR on a stack of Bibles that my Dad bought it as a Christmas gift in 1984. Some online sites support this. Others say the C128D wasn't released until 1985 or even 1986! I was just a kid (born in 76) so my memory may very well be playing tricks on me.

 

2) What was the original release price?

 

3) I've seen some reports that these computers had problems with the power supply. What kind of issues are we talking about? And why didn't I hear about them BITD? I may just have been a kid, but I read all the articles and comments on Loadstar and never saw one mention of this. And, as I said, this system got HEAVY use from about 85-94....that's about 9 years, and we never had a issue with it once! It seems like the 'problem' could be overrated.

 

4) What does one of these in good working order go for today, just curious? I still follow the Commodore scene and it's damn impressive what people have done with this 'little old system'.

 

5) Any data on sales figures? I take it didn't sell that well (never heard of anyone else having one) since it really was just a 128 with a built in disk drive, which was itself a upgrade of the 64, and never got much support. They seem to be pretty rare today.

 

[Rybags]

1> 128 release was early 1985, 128D supposedly was late 85. From my memory (was my last year in school) it sounds about right. Around the same time as the ST and Amiga were gaining steam, and overshadowed somewhat by both.

 

2> Price depends on where you are. Mid 80s US prices were often equivalent to UK Pound despite USD being worth barely half as much, so a much better deal was had by Americans than practically everyone else.

A friend of mine worked in a computer shop for a while in 86, I remember going to another shop and actually buying a plain 128 to satisfy an order they had, and it was something like $700 or $800, so the 128D here would have been over $1000 at release most likely. That said, probably more like $600 give or take in the US on release.

3> 128 PSUs are actually in demand as they are good for expanded 64s that need more juice. 128D, no idea - I imagine the PS might have been built in which can be cause for heat issues and failure in older machines.

 

4> Price today for a good 128D can be $100 upwards. Nicely integrated system as you mentioned. You easily enough can pay $80+ for a C64 and 1541, 128D takes up much the same desk space in a much neater package.

 

5> Supposedly the entire 128 line sold like 3-4 million, maybe more. Not bad considering how late to the party it arrived.

As for support - the 128 mode had little commercial software released. Some games had 128 versions produced and some games detected the ability to run the CPU faster in 64 mode and did so.

In 64 mode on any 128, you can either run the CPU at double speed with blank screen or use Raster IRQs to switch the CPU to fast mode in the offscreen period for a 20-30% overall speedup.

[RobertB]

SoulBlazer wrote:

 

> Got a few questions for the Commodore people here -- I could not have been the ONLY one to have one of these great systems!

 

Go to

 

http://www.commodore128.org

 

to join the many C128 fans there

 

http://c128.com

 

to talk to the father of the C128, CBM engineer Bil Herd.

 

> We never used 128 mode much, but Loadstar did publish a 128 version of the mag, and there were a few games that used the upgraded mode.

 

Even better were the Loadstar 128 games that used 80-column mode.

 

> It also had the faster 1581 drive, which cut down on the terrible load time that I had seen on my friends C64's.

 

Actually, it had a 1571 drive which used 5 1/4" disks. (I suppose you could mod the case to accept a 1581 drive.)

 

> 1) When was this actually released? I would SWEAR on a stack of Bibles that my Dad bought it as a Christmas gift in 1984. Some online sites support this. Others say the C128D wasn't released until 1985 or even 1986!

 

1986 for the metal C128D a.k.a. C128DCR (I don't know the release date of the plastic C128D.). The flat C128 came out in 1985.

 

> 2) What was the original release price?

 

I bought mine for $699.95 (not including shipping) from the Lyco mail order company in Nevada.

 

> 3) I've seen some reports that these computers had problems with the power supply.

 

Not really. Of course, you could put in a fan into the bracket at the rear of the metal C128D chassis.

 

> 4) What does one of these in good working order go for today, just curious?

 

That I don't know. However, we will have one for raffle at the Commodore Vegas Expo v10 on July 26-27.

 

> 5) Any data on sales figures?

 

For the C128D/C128DCR, I don't have any figures. But for the C128 as a whole, the number ranges from 4 million to 7 million.

 

Proud C128DCR owner,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group

http://videocam.net.au/fcug

 

Edited January 28, 2014 by RobertB

[RobertB]

Rybags wrote:

 

> 128 PSUs are actually in demand as they are good for expanded 64s that need more juice.

 

True.

 

> 128D, no idea - I imagine the PS might have been built in which can be cause for heat issues and failure in older machines.

 

Plastic C128D's had a fan in the power supply, so that kept them cool. The metal C128DCR had plenty of space inside that metal shell for air to circulate, but for extreme conditions (like no air-conditioning in your house during a really hot summer), then you could add a 12V fan to that power supply.

 

> Not bad considering how late to the party it arrived.

 

Heh, the C128D was not late. The C65 was the latecomer!

 

> As for support - the 128 mode had little commercial software released.

 

For a list of C128 commercial releases, look at the long discussion thread at

 

http://www.commodore128.org/index.php?topic=1008.0

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group

http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[Keatah]

delete this post wrong thread.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Keatah

[TMR]

Plastic C128D's had a fan in the power supply, so that kept them cool.

And since the OP asked for impressions... turn your vacuum cleaner on, that'll do an impression of the fan on a C128D. =-)

[karokoenig]

Impression:

 

Let's face it, folks. There are exactly four keys on the C128 that had to do the most work by far:

 

G, O, 6 and 4.

 

The D definetly was a cool looking piece of technology, though.

[Rybags]

From memory, just hold the C= key when powering up... though maybe they should have made 64 the default mode and hold the key for 128 mode.

[carlsson]

Yes, or you can insert some kind of fastloader cartridge which will make it boot up in C64 mode by default. To reverse the behavior probably would not have done Commodore any good, unless they sold it as C64 Plus or something equally silly.

 

For that matter, the ZX Spectrum 128 and later models boot to a menu that lets you select tape loader, 128K mode or plain 48K mode, using the cursor keys IIRC. I suppose Commodore could have made something similar if they wanted to play down the importance of the C128 native mode. Some other brands were so similar to their earlier models that as far as I know they don't need (offer) compatibility modes (BBC Master, Atari 130XE etc) while of course the Atari has the option to switch out BASIC on bootup, something present already in the 800XL.

[English Invader]

My impression of the C128 is that it's only worth getting if you're a serious hobbyist. The average gamer is better off sticking with the C64.

 

I have noticed that some people are using C128 PSUs on their C64s (via an adaptor) because of the over-voltage issues with the C64 PSUs although I've also heard that the C128 PSUs are still prone to capacitor failure as well. The interest from misguided C64 fanboys won't make it any easier (or cheaper) to get into the C128.

[Hatta]

There's very little reason not to get a 128. It's fully compatible with the C64. If you get a C64, you're going to have to track down a 128 power supply and adaptor, so why not just buy a 128 which comes with the power supply? And some homebrew software takes advantage of the C128's increased clock speed. For example, Elite 128, which is the best version of Elite next to the BBC.

 

Now the 128D is a pricier machine, and the only real advantages are the form factor and included 1581. I wouldn't go out of my way to get one, though it would be nice to be able to stack the monitor on top of it.

 

Also, the C128 keyboard is a lot nicer than the C64 keyboard, IMO.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Hatta

[English Invader]

There's very little reason not to get a 128. It's fully compatible with the C64. If you get a C64, you're going to have to track down a 128 power supply and adaptor, so why not just buy a 128 which comes with the power supply?

 

There are better options for the C64 than a C128 PSU. You can buy a Computer Saver from Ray Carlsen that limits the voltage on a problem PSU before it causes any damage and it's also possible to replace the capacitors and the regulator on a C64 power supply or buy refurbished PSUs with those mods on eBay.

[ApolloBoy]

it's also possible to replace the capacitors and the regulator on a C64 power supply

Not really, considering the C64 PSU is encased in a brick of epoxy. The European PSU thankfully isn't like that, but the American one is pretty much a lost cause once it goes.

[carlsson]

For what it is worth, the C128D has a 5,25" double sided 1571 as pointed out by RobertB, not a 3,5" 1581 unless you modified it or attached one externally.

[desiv]

There's very little reason not to get a 128.

While I agree, the main reason is cost..

Even the plain 128 tends to be more expensive and harder to find than the C64..

That being said, if I can find one and have some spare cash (and it's not spendy), I totally agree and would rather have that than a C64.

Kind of the same reason I got an Atari 7800 when I was interested in getting a Retro Atari console. I wasn't that familiar with the 7800, but 2600 games, plus 7800? Sold.. And I don't regret that at all.. However, the 7800 was actually less expensive than a lot of the 2600's out there at the time..

 

I always thought (just IMHO at the time) that the 128 was the best 8-bit console because of the flexibility (I was a fan of CP/M back then also).

But by the time I had enough money to upgrade, the Amiga 500 was out and that was that..

 

desiv

Edited January 29, 2014 by desiv

[Rybags]

Running 128 PS on C64 wasn't misguided, as said earlier a big reason is too allow running upgrades. The original REU was one of those things that needed you to provide more power.

 

C64 power supplies - like Atari 8-bit there were plenty of versions of them, I've got 2 here, 1 is an epoxy one. Like Atari, some of the epoxy ones are known troublespots.

 

Replacement PS options much more limited on C64 than Atari since C64 PS is dual voltage. Atari you could make a USB cable and use a $4 phone charger so long as it puts out enough mA.

[RobertB]

Carlsson wrote:

 

> ...you can insert some kind of fastloader cartridge which will make it boot up in C64 mode by default.

 

Unless you used a Mach 128 or Warpspeed fastloader cartridge switched to 128 mode.

 

Then it would boot in 128 mode by default,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group

http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[RobertB]

Rybags wrote:

 

> C64 power supplies - like Atari 8-bit there were plenty of versions of them,

 

I've counted four different, original equipment C64 power supplies -- a black, unvented brick with smooth exterior; a black, unvented brick with ribbed exterior; a light brown, unvented brick with ribbed exterior (the color matching that of the C64C); and a black, vented brick with smooth exterior and screws holding the case. All four output 1 amp @ 9VAC and 1.5 amps @ 5VDC (except for the C64C version which outputs 1.7 amps @ 5VDC). Very low power output.

 

The black, vented brick with the screws is repairable. It can be upgraded with modern, better components. See

 

http://blog.retro-link.com/2013/07/commodore-power-supplies-upgraded.html

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group

http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[Rybags]

I've got a beige/tan steel encased one and picked up a loose epoxy-filled ribbed one. How many versions, I'd say more than most would guess due to practically every country having it's own style of wall plug, so some markets they just sourced the PS from a local supplier for that country only.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Rybags

[RobertB]

English Invader wrote:

 

> There are better options for the C64 than a C128 PSU.

 

If you want plenty of output for add-on's like the SuperCPU, ram expanders, and carts like Super Snapshot and the 1541 Ultimate, there are currently no C64 off-the-shelf, ready-to-use, better options, other than the C128 p.s. (or the CBM C64 heavy-duty p.s. which is really a C128 p.s.). The C128 p.s. (a.k.a. C64 heavy-duty p.s.) outputs a big 4.3 amps @ 5VDC. Only the Phoenix power supplies for the C128 output more power, back in the day. IIRC, 7 amps @ 5VDC.

 

If you don't need that much power, Micro R&D built C64 and C128 power supplies that provided 3 amps @ 5VDC. I found those to be adequate. In fact, new, old-stock Micro R&D C64 power supplies are still sold by Commodore storefront, Computer Station, in Long Beach, California. When I visited the store a few weeks ago, there were about half a dozen still in the box sitting on the shelf.

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group

http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[RobertB]

Rybags wrote:

 

> I've got a beige/tan steel encased one...

 

Yeah, I've seen beige/tan C64 p.s.'s with sloping front for the United Kingdom and Germany.

 

But if I remember correctly, they had plastic casings,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group

http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[+slx]

The C128 is an interesting and cool looking machine. I was 'all Atari' from 82 to 96 but recently bought a C128D after listening to an interview with Bil Herd on Retrobits.

 

While Atari never changed the basic formula of their 8-bits Commodore at least tried to offer a compatible upgrade with new technology (OK, CP/M wasn't all that new but when the C128 was developed it wasn't all that clear yet whether DOS or CP/M would rule the world.)

 

The Commodore history book by Bagnall contains some interesting Trivia on the development decisions leading to the 128. I find it interesting that I can't recall much about the 128 from the late 80s. The ST (and Amiga) were the future then and another 8-bit seemed pointless.

[mitchd61]

I had a 128D years ago, but sold it when I moved to the Amiga. I always regretted it. I found another two years ago at a flea market for a measly $20.00 and jumped on it. It cleaned up nicely (no dings or scratches) and works perfectly. They're great machines!

[Seob]

I have a 128, but it isn't compatible with all c64 games in c64 mode. Can't recall what game i tried to load but i thought the disk was bad. Bought a few c64 disk last october. Last christmas i had to test a c64 and tried all my original disk games, and even the one i thought was bad booted on the c64.

[icbrkr]

My main Commodore machine is a C128D which I use to call BBSes in 80 columns, run GEOS stuff for fun, and play Infocom games that were released for it in 80 columns

 

Luckily, I have a second C128D that I won from RobertB some years back in Vegas