Multicart(s) suggestions?

[phoenixdownita]

What do you know? Found a couple of hours to punch a hole for the dip switch on the cart shell, build the PCB with pull-ups and wire it all together .... and voila' .... got myself a all 48K in one multicart (list in post http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224038-multicarts-suggestions/?do=findComment&comment=2983888 ).

 

Next the 128K multi, 2 of them .... that requires more rerouting, A16 at the ROM chip is where normally OE (or /OE) is so need to reroute that to the right place, guess I'll tie /CE and /OE together as for 128K ROM there is really only one signal (at least I think). The rest should be the same except I will be using a 27C801 (1MB) which hopefully my programmer recognizes.

 

Cart1 expected list:

Ace of Aces

Basketbrawl

Crack'ed

Dark Chambers

Fatal Run

Fight Night

Ikari Warriors

Mat Mania Challenge

 

Cart2 expected list:

Mean 18 Ultimate Golf

Midnight Mutants

Motor Psycho

Ninja Golf

Scrapyard Dog

Tank Command (64K)

Waterski (64K)

Xenophobe

 

[i hope I can get by with the 2 64K by simply doubling them to 128K, we'll see if it works]

Edited May 7, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[FireTiger]

Great progress!

Glad your project up and running.

 

When you have a minute can I see a pict ?

[phoenixdownita]

Cart2 DONE:

Mean 18 Ultimate Golf

Midnight Mutants

Motor Psycho

Ninja Golf

Scrapyard Dog

Tank Command (64K)

Waterski (64K)

Xenophobe

 

Doubling Tank Command and Waterski simply worked.

Connecting /CE and /OE on the EPROM together just worked as well.

I still have to make Cart1, later today, I just happened to work on punching a hole for the dip switch bank on Cart2 first so I finished it as I was at it.

 

I will publish pictures but these low-tech multicarts just look like normal 7800 game carts with a red dip switch bank (3 or 4 switches depending) popping out of the surface in the top right corner of the front label and a yellow post-it on the label with the handwritten list of games.

Edited May 10, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Ouch, 128K Cart1 is a no go.

 

To summarize the story so far:

 

For my all-in-one 32K I had to work with a C024926 (http://www.atarihq.com/danb/7800cart/C024926.shtml) which requires an inverter to replace ROM with EPROM [in my case I sacrificed Pole Position 2]

 

For my all-in-one 48K I had to work with a C100339 (http://www.atarihq.com/danb/7800cart/C100339.shtml) the board only had the ROM at U1 and the 74LS02 at U2 populated and did not require any inverter to replace ROM with EPROM [in my case I sacrificed HatTrick]

 

For my some-in-one 128K aka 128-Cart2 I was working with a C300595 (http://www.atarihq.com/danb/7800cart/C300595.shtml) and did not require an inverter to replace ROM with EPROM [in my case I sacrificed Xenophobe]

 

For my other some-in-one 128K aka 128-Cart1 I am working with a C300565 (http://www.atarihq.com/danb/7800cart/C300565.shtml) and it is NOT working so far [in my case I sacrificed Dark Chambers].

I basically replicated what I did on the C300595 but components around it are different (74LS373/74LSLS02/74LS08 vs 74LS374/74LS00/74LS02). Somehow I hope I just need an inverter on the CS signal EPROM side ..... either that or I messed up which is a possibility because as I am learning to build this multis I always managed to fuxx up little detail here and there, usually a trace to rewire or a broken pin from the socket and had to grind the plastic away to "rebuild" it, always some little sucker that make me waste ... ahem, I meant to say extend 1H or 2H the project.

 

Time will tell.

Anyway I hope if someone else attempts what I am attempting this chronicle is useful.

 

I believe I already stated how easier it would have been had I had designed my own PCBs .... but I wouldn't know where to start so I prefer modding existing Atari carts PCBs

 

NOTE: keep in mind that there's no guarantee that if you use the same game I used as a starting point you'll find the same PCB type .... it kind of sucks but that's the way it is, even 32K have a version with 2 16K ROMs one that is active low and one high .... so the only thing you can infer from my description is based on the PCB number and not the exact game I sacrificed [i just added it here for completeness]

Edited May 11, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Ouch act 2: 128K Cart1 is a HALF go.

 

I found my blunder, embarrassing short [it took me hours to find it, it was under the wire I used for power as it touched another trace which happened to have lost the green insulation right at that spot .... anyways], no inverter needed but PCB C300565 default jumpers [W2 & W3] only map the high 32K (with page 7 on C000-FFFF and the banked page at 8000-BFFF), basically no page 6 at 4000-7FFF.

 

Of the games I put on the 128K Cart1 only Crack'ed and Dark Chambers work fine in that configuration (well I used Dark Chambers as the donor so that's no surprise), the others either glitch graphically or don't work at all, which means in their cartridge they have a PCB set for page 6 at 4000-7FFF.

My same 128K Cart1 EPROM put into a PCB C300595 (the one from Xenophobe) works wonderfully so I know it's not the EPROM, all games no glitch (PCB C300595 does map fixed page 6 at 4000-7FFF).

 

Now I have to figure out if thru the available jumpers on PCB C300565 there's a way to "activate" fixed page 6 behavior.

The fact that the docs I found state that the exact same jumpers config allows None/RAM/ExtraROM as the secondary chip on PCB C300565 should have rang a bell because that secondary chip maps exactly where fixed page 6 would be, so to avoid shorts that config has no way to support fixed page 6 at the same time.

 

If anyone figured out a way to rejumper a PCB C300565 to support fixed page 6 at 4000-7FFF please let me know.

[i suspect the same behavior is true for C100339, because again the docs state that the same config supports None/RAM/ExtraROM -> no way it can also support fixed page 6 at the same time]

Edited May 12, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[Shawn]

FWIW the timing on the 595 and 565 are a little different. Games like Klax or Sentinel will want the 595 setup VS the 565 setup. So if you run into

problems with those it's likely do to a timing issue. As you may have already noticed the resistor values are different on the 2 boards.

[phoenixdownita]

Funny you should mention Klax and Sentinel

 

There are exactly 24 games that are either SG or S4 (that is to say 128K or 64K, no RAM), enough to fill 3 27C080/27C801 to have them all.

I decided to drop from my quest all "prototypes" and a few 128K games to try to stick to only 2 EPROMs and Klax (proto) and Sentinel (proto) got axed, other victims were Barnyard Blaster (light gun), Meltdown (light gun), Planet Smashers, Touchdown Football, Pitfighter (proto) and Realsports Baseball (8 in total).

If I make this 565 PCB to work I may reconsider

 

Regarding those resistor values you mention my supposition is that they might not matter that much.

I could be wrong but so far I believe they act simply as pull-up.

 

The dip switches I used on the A19/A18/A17 lines of the 27C801 have pull-up resistors and so far I've been successful in using 2.2K, 3.3K, 4.7K and 5.1K, given the 5V and 40uA required on high I believe even a 10K would still work just fine as pull-up, mind you that I am not questioning your observations, you may well be onto something, just mentioning mines.

In the end I am not sure if those resistors do affect timing, and if they do how much it affects the logic, but then again I admit I haven't even tried yet to map what those extra chips (7400 and 7402) do at a logical level in the first place.

 

Thanks for the heads-up, anything may help, I'd hate if it turns out that the 565 PCB does not support fixed page 6.

Edited May 12, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Did some probing and found out that the decoding circuitry of the 565 PCB obviously knows how to decode (A14 & /A15) but said signal is only connected to the /CS (and /OE) of U2 (the RAM/ExtraROM), not sure yet if it's also decoded anywhere else [it may well be]

 

I guess I have 4 choices then:

 

1) put in U2 an EPROM 27C010 that contains the 16K of page 6 of each of the 8 games (in the same order as the 27C801) and wire the dip switches in parallel to both, tedious but easy enough to implement albeit a waste of EPROM

 

2) find a 595 PCB, they seem to be the best for 128K multi but even less rare games like Fight Night are around 10US$

 

3) use the U2 /CS signal on the PCB as a sign that page 6 is accessed and enable the main EPROM (an OR circuit with current U1 /CS would do) and find a way to force page 6 [110] onto A15/A14/A13 at the same time basically replicating the behavior of a 595 PCB on the 565, not sure how much extra logic I may need.

 

4) keep analyzing the circuitry and find out if thru the jumpers or some basic rerouting there's already a way to achieve 3.

 

On the bright side, I now know more that I cared about Atari cartridge PCBs!

Edited May 12, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Took a pause from the 565 and as I had bought a Winter Games cart I decided to use its PCB and components build myself a 128K+RAM all in one (afaik there are only 5 offical games + 2 "proto" requiring it).

 

This time the PCB I found is a C100339 (http://www.atarihq.com/danb/7800cart/C100339.shtml) and to desolder the ROM I did such a poor job that I thought I trashed it .... seriously I lifted and broken 4 traces, I lifted almost all solder pads, this PCB was such poor quality (or just plain old) that the solder sucker would stick to the soldering pad and suck them away .... anyway I managed to rebuild the traces, fix somehow the broken connections and replace the ROM with "my" multi EPROM.

 

And it all worked .... awesome.

 

All-in-one 128K+RAM game list:

 

Impossible Mission

(Im)possible Mission

Jinks

Plutos

Sirius

Summer Games

Tower Toppler (64K)

Winter Games

 

Only minor glitch I can tell sometimes Tower Toppler shows a flickering line of bricks 2/3 up the tower, not sure what to make of it .... the other games seem to work just fine.

 

Is there any way to tell Impossible Mission from (Im)possible Mission?

I expected that apart from the bug fix there would be something on the title screen to tell them apart but I found nothing, only thing I can tell is that Impossible Mission has the first 32K all zero, while (Im)possible Mission has them set as FF [you can check the A78 or BIN file thru HxD to see what I mean].

 

Regarding the Winter Games C100339 PCB that I used it came equipped with a U62256 SRAM (32K) in U4 but I strongly believe only 16K max are ever used [some games only use 8K].

Also instead of the 74LS10 at U3 there was a 74LS244 with one pin lifted and shorted to the neighboring one ... weird.

 

 

FYI: when I say replace the ROM with a 27C801 EPROM I really mean place a 32 pin socket where a 28 pin ROM is which is a little invovled as some components have to be remounted on the soldering side, 4 pins of the socket have to be spread out [i used tape to isolate them from the PCB) to allow soldering and a couple of pins have to be isolated/rerouted as appropriate to match the differences in pin-out.

Edited May 13, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

As requested a picture of the 4 fully working poor-man switchable multicarts.

The 2 on top is when I learnt to put the switch right in the corner as opposed to somewhere close to the corner.

I paid no attention to salvage the labels underneath or make the cutout look pretty.

Also I painted black the tip of the switches myself, and 0 means black tip UP, 1 means black tip DOWN.

 

 

Top left is multi 128K + RAM

Top right is multi 128K cart 2 (cart 1 is still in need of a 595 PCB)

Bottom left is all in one 32K or less

Bottom right is all in one 48K

 

You may ask why 2 Impossible Mission in multi 128K + RAM, well it turns out there are only 7 games that require RAM so I had an extra slot to fill anyway.

Edited May 18, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[santosp]

This time the PCB I found is a C100339 (http://www.atarihq.com/danb/7800cart/C100339.shtml) and to desolder the ROM I did such a poor job that I thought I trashed it .... seriously I lifted and broken 4 traces, I lifted almost all solder pads, this PCB was such poor quality (or just plain old) that the solder sucker would stick to the soldering pad and suck them away ....

 

 

Indeed, this pcb is of very cheap quality. You dont need to desolder something as to identify it. Just open and close with solder 2 - 3 times the jumper points. Is enough to destroy it.

[FireTiger]

See I like them very much- great job- there's talented people around that could even make you labels too- maybe

[phoenixdownita]

The super gracious CPUWIZ sent me a few PCBs.

 

Now back into finishing my 128K Multi 1, then trying to see if using a 565 fixes the Tower Toppler woes in the 128K+RAM multi.

 

As I was at it I already prepared another 128K multi EPROM with odds and ends:

 

Barnyard Blaster

Klax

Meltdown

Planet Smashers

RealSport Baseball (64K)

Sentinel (NTSC proto)

Touchdown Football

[TBD, one slot left, but no more games]

 

Not sure I'll make a whole multi for them, just curious to see them.

 

For now a big thanks to CPUWIZ for lending a hell of a helping hand and the hardware to go with it.

Edited May 23, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Thanks to a 595 my 128K multi 1 is now alive and perfectly working.

 

Because up to that point I was trying to make it out of a 565 I just reused the work done up to that point, installed a 32K SRAM (Mitsubishi M5M5256) then put in my 128K+RAM EPROM compilation and what do you know, Tower Toppler works without a glitch, victory!!!

 

Again a big thanks to CPUWIZ for sending over the PCBs.

[CPUWIZ]

No problem, it's a great place to start, if you want to figure out how finicky the 7800's really are. I won't use those anymore, but I also can not throw them out, so giving them to someone as a learning tool is grand to me.

[phoenixdownita]

Made my odds and ends PCB and I found out that "Sentinel (NTSC proto)" seems to have no sound whatsoever with the exception of the boss at the end of the level. I find it weird as even your shots don't have any sound until the boss appears,

 

Is that known or is my ROM corrupted?

 

EDIT: nevermind

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/224951-correct-sentinel-rom-header/?do=findComment&comment=2980845

 

"Keep in mind for Sentinel, the difficulty switch setting affects whether sound is off or on*.

B - Left Position - Sound On

A - Right Position - Sound Off"

Edited May 25, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[Trebor]

Check the difficulty switch...

 

B - Left Position - Sound On

A - Right Position - Sound Off

 

[phoenixdownita]

I admit my "odds and ends" multi is not my favorite, I don't believe it deserves a multi per se.

 

On the other end as I wanted to make an AlienBrigade + CrossBow cart (they are the 2 games that use an extra 16K ROM at 4000-7fff) I may as well throw in Meltdown and Sentinel (I really don't like Barnyard Blaster) by putting in the extra 16K a copy of page6 thus simulating fixed page 6 with an actual EPROM.

 

The thing is I already have a 27C512 (64K) to be used for the "extra ROM" and it that can take 4 16K, I also have a 27C040 (512K) tha can be used as 4 128K "main ROM", also the work involved is the same with the exception of needing a double dip switch rather than a single ... so may as well make a 4-in-1 light gun game multi cart.

Edited May 25, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

"4-in-1 light gun games" multicart works like a charm.

 

What's in it:

 

Alien Brigade

Crossbow

Meltdown

Sentinel

 

How it was done:

I started with a CrossBow cartridge that happen to be on a 565 PCB, so 565 is the starting point.

Desoldered U1 and U2, U1 is the 128K ROM while U2 contains the extra 16K ROM.

The 565 is wired for an SRAM at U2 (or a 16KB or less ROM) so a couple of traces have to be cut and one signal rerouted around the cuts (in specific A14 from the 7800 connector).

 

Anyway this time the dip switches connect to both U1 (a 27C040 at A17 and A18) and U2 (a 27C512 at A14 and A15), you end up connecting together A17 of 27C040 and A14 of 27C512 as well as A18 of 27C040 and A15 of 27C512 because you want the 2 EPROMs to be in sync, that is when you select say Alien Brigade from U1 (main 128K) you want U2 to map the Alien Brigade extra 16K, when you select Sentinel from U1 you want "page 6" from Sentinel from U2.

 

To build the EPROMs content I used the first 16KB of the BIN files for Alien Brigades and CrossBow for U2, and the remaining 128K of the total 144K for both games for U1.

Regarding Meltdown and Sentinel I simply copied 16KB of page 6 (the second to last 16KB from the BIN files) in U2, and the whole BIN (128K) in U1.

 

It is not sophisticated at all but it is functional.

Edited May 26, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Pictures front and back of the multi-shooter (right on a 565 PCB) and multi-odds'n'ends (left on a 595 PCB).

 

Forgive the approximate ... well let's just say bad .... quality of the images.

Edited May 26, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Finished playing Alien Brigade on Novice level, the game is relatively entertaining. Not sure I liked the last level and the "mother alien" but still a nice little gem in the 7800 library, a pity you need a CRT to enjoy it.

 

Regarding the multi carts project I just got out of eBay a 7800 Rampage cart, with a little bit of luck I should be able to desolder the ROM and replace it with a dual "Rampage/Double Dragon" EPROM. Hopefully Activision used the exact same banking for its 2 games so either can be used as the source. It wasn't cheap, at 25US$, but nowhere near what Double Dragon goes these days, insanity. Let's see if my plan comes together.

[Trebor]

Finished playing Alien Brigade on Novice level, the game is relatively entertaining. Not sure I liked the last level and the "mother alien" but still a nice little gem in the 7800 library, a pity you need a CRT to enjoy it.

 

Not if you use a joystick instead of a light gun.

 

Like Crossbow, Alien Brigade can be played with a joystick or a light gun.

[phoenixdownita]

Got an F18 and a Rampage cart and opened them up.

 

F18 is weird, it's got 2 74LS00 (quad nand) and 1 74LS32 (quad or), none of which can be used as a flip flop, so I am not really sure how the banking works, if it has one at all (supposedly it has 32K fixed at $8000-$ffff and can page in 2 separate 16K banks at $4000-$7fff by writing at the $8000 hotspot, the whole ROM is 64K).

 

Rampage instead uses a PAL for the decoding/bankswitching so not much to look at (and PAL can be configured to act as flip flop for some signals), I just hope its program is identical to Double Dragon so I can make an Activision 2-in-1 and be done, for sure I will try to prove my theory .... I am not sure the PAL ever got dumped.

 

Both these carts use a non Atari shell, inside the shell it seems like it can be switched 2600/7800 because there are 2 long plastic prongs that can be removed entirely .... also because of those 2 prongs that run the height of the cartridge it is a little tight in there for my mod + dip switch .... likely I will toss the prongs in Rampage and use the extra space if need be.

 

Once this Activision multi is done I believe my quest is complete as all "official" games from the 80s are done: I've got an original BallBlazer and santosp repro of Commando to cover for the 2 Pokey, as well as original F18, the rest is/will be in one of the multis .... time to play then.

 

In retrospective given the time and material invested (mostly time as it takes a good 2H to carve one of the multis in between desoldering, modifying the sockets, shuffle components, grind traces, reroute signals, build PCB with dip switches, grind the cart shell where needed, cut a hole for the dip switches etc...) ... I was saying in retrospective a 7800 flash card at around 150$ even without Pokey support )or 2600 for that matter) would have been a very very nice option if it was available.

 

Alternatively if ready made PCBs to host all in one 32K, all in one 48K, 8 128K (no RAM), and 8 128K+RAM were available say for around 20US$ each, that would also be a valid avenue for DIYers, as it would cut the time down tremendously during the fabrication.

Edited June 1, 2014 by phoenixdownita

[phoenixdownita]

Activision multi attempted but it is a No GO.

 

I replaced the ROM on Rampage with a TMS27C020, one half for Double Dragon, the other half for Rampage.

I didn't do anything special about the way I rerouted Vcc and A16, or tie /OE and /CE of the EPROM together in respect to the other multi that I built. I even put /PGM to Vcc, admittedly I left Vpp floating (I should likely connect it to Vcc but it would be a first, never did it with 27C040).

 

Anyone one knows if maybe the Activision ROM is controlled by CE (instead of /CE, inverted that is)?

Or any other trick to making the content of the EPROM?

 

If anyone knows how to repro one of these, help is greatly appreciated.

[phoenixdownita]

Attempted to put Vpp to Vcc, No GO.

 

Attempted to invert /CE singal control (which I tied together to /OE at the EPROM), No GO

 

Separated /CE and /OE at the EPROM, (with and without Vpp=Vcc) so that the onboard PAL controls only /OE (/CE is at GND), No GO.

Tried again the same but inverting the /OE signal from the PAL, No GO

 

I'm stumped.

 

For the people interested in the pinout of the APL is here http://www.uib.es/depart/dfs/GTE/education/industrial/sis_ele_digitals/Problemes/PAL16R4.pdf

A quick pic is here http://circuits.datasheetdir.com/117/PAL16L8AM-pinout.jpg

 

I kind of reconstructed the PAL i/o from the cart and they are:

pin 1 = atari CLK (phi2)

pin 2 = GND

pin 3 = atari A0

pin 4 = atari A1

pin 5 = atari A2

pin 6 = atari A13

pin 7 = atari A14

pin 8 = atari A15

pin 9 = atari R/W

pin 10 = GND

pin 11 = GND (this is /OE on the PAL)

pin 12 = pin 20 at the ROM (ROM /CE ?)

pin 13 = pin 22 at the ROM (ROM A16 ?)

pin 14,15,16,17 = not connected

pin 18 = pin 1 at the ROM (ROM A15 ?)

pin 19 = pin 27 at the ROM (ROM A14 ?)

pin 20 = Vcc

 

Also PAL pin 6 (atari A13) and pins 3,4,5 (atari A0,A1,A2) are connected in parallel to both PAL and ROM, instead atari A14 and A15 go only to the PAL, the ROM gets them from the other side of the PAL.

 

With the exception of A16/A15/A14/CE (controller by the PAL only) every other pin on the ROM is connected to the corresponding pin on the cart port.

 

To finish the ROM has the followng writings on it

 

DEI - 634NR - RMPGDA1

© NCR A8929

609 - 2936005

F835834

Edited June 11, 2014 by phoenixdownita