great Vectrex brews but still no Battlezone?

[ComputerSpaceFan]

Recently the Vectrex homebrew scene has been incredible, so many fantastic games in rapid succession, I feel like I'm in a vector-glowing-heaven!

 

I've owned a Vectrex for many years and followed the up-till-recently quiet homebrew scene for a long time and I remember fondly many many people posting ideas and rough drafts of porting Battlezone to the console. And yet, despite a new flood of fantastic games, still nothing for Battlezone.

 

For anyone creating Vectrex games, can any of you chime in about why this popular request has never been done? Is it the controls? Or is the Vectrex not really capable of really running Battlezone?

 

I'm just curious if anyone knows or can comment.

[BinaryStar]

My friend Jim Watt has a true 3d version of Battlezone on Vectrex but it runs at a slow rate of FPS at the moment and is not yet complete. It is coming though, possibly this year. A simpler version could be quite easily done at a higher framerate by using prerendered 3D. 'Polar Rescue' (the submarine game) is quite battlezone-ish but just uses static models rather than calculating doing 3d math.

 

Here's a demo video from ages ago. The code has moved on a bit since then.

[vectrexrc]

I think its the 3d model rotation that is the problem - thats why we dont have a version of Star Wars either...

 

there is Star Ship/Trek but it is not the same.

 

i wonder it it would be possible for some enterprising person to design a cart that can have a co-processor to handle the maths involved?

 

I see someone has tried driving a vectrex monitor using an Arduino

 

 

i know that this is not the same but ultimately i think the vectrex is not powerful enough for real time smooth 3d animation - although the monitor is probably capable.

Edited June 5, 2014 by vectrexrc

[BinaryStar]

 

i wonder it it would be possible for some enterprising person to design a cart that can have a co-processor to handle the maths involved?

 

 

I'm pretty sure there is someone working on that. No ETA though. It's true, the Vectrex isn't really best equipped to do realtime 3d math without an FPU but it's doable.

Jim was trying to get the same kind of performance as Rommels Revenge on the ZX Spectrum, which is playable but not super-smooth.

Edited June 5, 2014 by KidQuaalude

[raindog]

I would think that some of the stuff Thomas has done on the unmodified 2600 (like this: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/155657-elite-3d-graphics/ ) would be helpful here, since the 6809 is a more capable CPU running at a higher clock speed. (Didn't someone make a Tail Gunner clone for the Vectrex too? The enemy ships were definitely 3D objects in that one when you missed them and they passed your ship.) But the only way I'd be interested in working on it myself would be to make a version of Battlezone where all the urban legends are in there, the "drive long enough and you get to the mountains" one, the "kill 10 UFOs without dying to get a boss battle" one, etc. I found the actual combat to be simultaneously difficult and boring.

 

I could get behind Star Wars a little easier, and I think it would also be easier to cheat on since most of the objects that change perspective aren't detailed enough to need 3D calculations. But you'd really need to use the 3D imager to get those colors, and mine was lost in the depths of my parents' house in the 25 years between when I moved out and my stepdad sold it and gave me all my old videogame stuff back.

[raindog]

Well, the forum really buggered that post up, and editing it only gives me up to the colon before the link, with the rest of my post erased. Can't even view source to get what's hidden behind the "..." above. Can a moderator or DBA fix the raw text so that the space after the link and everything else up to "boring" is not considered part of the link? I've never liked rich text editors, but this is an especially egregious one.

 

[gorf68]

I think something like the Atari 2600's Robot Tank should be doable, with relatively simple scalable pre-drawn shapes.

 

The Vectrex can draw lines relatively quickly and it can rotate and scale pre-designed shapes relatively quickly, but it does suffer from a fair bit of flicker when doing the maths and the drawing in real-time.

 

I got quite a lot of big-object movement into my Spike and the Angry Vortex Bird game by using direct line drawing (and some creative maths) to move the background, but what you see there is about the limit (drawing-movement wise) that I could fit on the screen.

[50TBRD]

Robot Tank looks pretty good too.

[NinjaFlicker]

What if you removed every unnecessary line, gameplay wise? For example, if the tanks were simply a wedge with a scary pyramid head up top? And bullets were an X or a cross? Granted, that's severe, but from a bare skeleton, you can see what absolutely needs to be on the model to sell the idea of a tank, and only add as few lines as needed.

 

What if you also limited visibility, and you need to use sounds, a motion tracker, direction of shots fired, and something like "headlights"?

 

Could it run at a good speed, then?

 

It wouldn't be Battlezone anymore, but it would still be in the same genre.

[haroldoop]

I know this may sound a bit un-retro-ish, but how about adding a microcontroller on the cartridge to do the 3D logic, while letting the Vectrex do the rest?

 

Another option could be to have multiple pre-rotated images stored on the cartridge.

Edited June 21, 2014 by haroldoop

[gliptitude]

I know this may sound a bit un-retro-ish, but how about adding a microcontroller on the cartridge to do the 3D logic, while letting the Vectrex do the rest?

 

Another option could be to have multiple pre-rotated images stored on the cartridge.

That sounds awesome to me and i dont understand why there haven't been more projects along those lines for Vectrex, considering that it is the most accessible and almost the only way to display real vector graphics. .. I think it has already been demonstrated that numerous old vector arcade games can display on Vectrex, using external hardware, emulators and a vector generator.

 

.. Would be sweet to have something like a Super Vectrex add on, something that plugged in the Vectrex cartridge port, had its own CPU and cart slot, a system that would allow new and continued software developement at a higher level, without modifying the Vectrex itself.

Edited June 25, 2014 by gliptitude

[gliptitude]

The Vectrex can draw lines relatively quickly and it can rotate and scale pre-designed shapes relatively quickly, but it does suffer from a fair bit of flicker when doing the maths and the drawing in real-time.

 

I got quite a lot of big-object movement into my Spike and the Angry Vortex Bird game by using direct line drawing (and some creative maths) to move the background, but what you see there is about the limit (drawing-movement wise) that I could fit on the screen.

I wonder how Web Wars was able to have such a compelling 3D background? It even shifts orientation while scrolling, and the whole game is under 8K.

[raindog]

.. Would be sweet to have something like a Super Vectrex add on, something that plugged in the Vectrex cartridge port, had its own CPU and cart slot, a system that would allow new and continued software developement at a higher level, without modifying the Vectrex itself.

I'm pretty sure some of the CPU lines are exposed through the cartridge port pins, but I don't know if they're enough to allow that sort of add-on without modifying the Vectrex. That would be the big question.

 

If not, though, something like DPC+ could still be done where there's a faster CPU on the cartridge and it does the heavy lifting just-in-time, generating code or data for the Vectrex CPU to access as though it were on a regular ROM chip. That's just a question of the size of the Vectrex enthusiast scene and how many hardware gurus are part of it. I'd love to buy a VecHarmony, for example.

 

I wonder how Web Wars was able to have such a compelling 3D background? It even shifts orientation while scrolling, and the whole game is under 8K.

I always thought the horizontal (U-shaped) lines were just scaled up and down, and shifted to one side or the other to simulate perspective which could actually be done using a table, while the lines emanating from the vanishing point were just drawn from the vertices on the furthest away visible U to the closest one. Figuring out the path of each of your shots was probably harder than that. But I haven't disassembled the game, or even played it in years, so my memory might be off.

 

At any rate, that mostly-fixed perspective with static "sprites" for the enemies seems a lot simpler than having free movement in any direction and full 3D enemies and objects, as you'd need for Battlezone. You could probably take some shortcuts since everything but the initial approach of the missiles happens on approximately the same plane, as in Wolfenstein 3D, or alternatively, make a bunch of pre-rendered but scalable "sprites" for views of each object from the 4 or 8 cardinal directions as in Robot Tank and Battlezone on the 2600, or Ballblazer on pretty much anything.

 

I do think the existence of Web Wars makes at least a slightly ghetto-fied Star Wars demake possible, even without the DSP Atari apparently used in that arcade game. It just wouldn't fit in 8K.

[gliptitude]

I always thought the horizontal (U-shaped) lines were just scaled up and down, and shifted to one side or the other to simulate perspective which could actually be done using a table, while the lines emanating from the vanishing point were just drawn from the vertices on the furthest away visible U to the closest one. Figuring out the path of each of your shots was probably harder than that. But I haven't disassembled the game, or even played it in years, so my memory might be off.

 

At any rate, that mostly-fixed perspective with static "sprites" for the enemies seems a lot simpler than having free movement in any direction and full 3D enemies and objects, as you'd need for Battlezone. You could probably take some shortcuts since everything but the initial approach of the missiles happens on approximately the same plane, as in Wolfenstein 3D, or alternatively, make a bunch of pre-rendered but scalable "sprites" for views of each object from the 4 or 8 cardinal directions as in Robot Tank and Battlezone on the 2600, or Ballblazer on pretty much anything.

 

I do think the existence of Web Wars makes at least a slightly ghetto-fied Star Wars demake possible, even without the DSP Atari apparently used in that arcade game. It just wouldn't fit in 8K.

With my Web Wars comment i was a bit off topic and mostly thinking in comparison to gorf68's Spike and the Angry Vortex Bird game, (which he refers to above) rather than Battlezone. The background scrolling in his game is similar to the effect in Web Wars, although seemingly less complicated and also (as i remember) would not display properly on real hardware. .. I don't remeber the size of gorf's game program, but most Vectrex homebrews seem to approach 32K. .. So I'm just perpetually impressed with Web Wars.

 

.. I agree Star Wars could be more promising than Battlezone. I just noticed your previous post about using the 3D Imager to get the colors. I have also thought that before, (recently actually since i only first encountered a Star Wars cab a few months ago and since i also acquired a repro 3D Imager). .. The 3D effect with the Imager is a bit inconsistent, but THE COLORIZATION IS ALMOST PERFECT. For me it would seem worthwhile to provide 3D Imager support for the color alone, even if the game graphics were not 3D. .. When you consider the color vector monitors that existed and how they work and look, the Vectrex/3D Imager might be the only way to get color vector graphics WITH SMOOTH NON-PIXELATED VECTORS. .. Reproduction 3D Imagers are currently available from Madtronix.com, and I think a lot of Vectrex owners have them now.

 

.. I don't really know the technology and computing or programming limitations that you mention. I just thought that if you are going to consider putting a microcontroller on a cartridge, why not have something more versatile instead, that could be used by more than one game.

 

There have been some hardware guys in the Vectrex scene, but it seems unlikely something like this would see production. In order have an impact there would have to be solid dedicated games programmed in conjunction witht the hardware. Usually game programmers and the hardware guys are separate people. .. In fact the guy who recently designed the new cart dumper/burner system, and who is actively pursuing other Vectrex related hardware projects, IS NOT EVEN A GAMER HIMSELF.

Edited June 27, 2014 by gliptitude

[BinaryStar]

.I don't remeber the size of gorf's game program, but most Vectrex homebrews seem to approach 32K. .. So I'm just perpetually impressed with Web Wars.

 

Vectrex homebrews tend not to use the BIOS functions for things like music playback, menus etc. That's why they come in a lot larger, as both code and data for these things must be stored in the ROM. Without music and custom menus, fonts etc it's easy enough to fit a simple game in 8k.

[Star castler]

War of the robots is pretty similar.

[vectrexroli]

War of the robots is pretty similar.

To Battlezone? I don´t think so, both War of the Robots and 3D Lord of the Robots scroll only left and right, so there is no real 3D scenery like in Battlezone.

[Star castler]

True, there aren't as many objects on screen like Battlezone, but it has some similarities.