Stephen J. Carden Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) ILS http://www.realdos.net has created a hardware board that works in parallel with the Atari Keyboard. I have both the DataQue TransKey and AKI keyboard interface that are no longer made and we still have need of them. Most all my Atari 130xe Keyboards have dead keys so we decided to build some for our own use. We got several e-mails about others wanting to get a Keyboard interface of some kind. The ILS KRH (Keyboard Replacement Hardware) functions like an AKI except we had to use a different PIC Processor. You can get more info from this web page on our web site Http://www.realdos.net/ils-keyboard.html . We have ordered 50 PCB's for this project and they are on the way. Please e-mail me or post a message here so we can have an idea of how many more of these boards we need to order. We are doing these board because they are a needed hardware for the Atari 8-bit. We understand that money is tight so we are not looking to make a profit from this project. It is going to cost us $40.00 US Dollars to build and ship this upgrade to customers in the US. It is harder to calculate the shipping costs to destinations outside the USA so we are asking for $10.00 US Dollars Extra, However any unused shipping cash will be returned via paypal. Right now the only transaction for this project we will accept is paypal. ILS has a web page setup to do ordering from but has not turned the buttons on until the PCB arrive. I will post a message here and e-mail anyone who has e-mail me. I look for the PCB's to be here the week of June 15, 2014. Please let me know how many you want! Stephen J. Carden http://www.realdos.net Contact my internet BBS by Telnetting RealDos.net port 8888 or 8889 Edited June 9, 2014 by Stephen J. Carden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roydea6 Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 http://www.realdos.net/ILS-Keyboard.html is the correct address.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 http://www.realdos.net/ILS-Keyboard.html is the correct address.. The way I entered it you should be able to just click on it. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub(Function(:)) Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Will this board work with a stereo upgrade? Such as the ones Lotharek sells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 )" data-cid="3007218" data-time="1402305148"> Will this board work with a stereo upgrade? Such as the ones Lotharek sells. The order the mods are important. I have an Keyboard hardware plugged into the Pokey slot on the mobo and the my Lotharek Stereo Pokey plugged into the 40 pin slot of the Keyboard mod. This end up being a tall stack of board and will not fit into a normal case. I have a 130xe installed in a tower case. SteveI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub(Function(:)) Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Ok that's what I was worried about. BTW, for those that won't have this stacking problem. Could you elaborate on the firmware; Will you be able to define keyboard macros? Or which keys do what, (select, start, reset..)? does it support the extra 1200XL "F" keys? (I can see it being useful to these owners) Also how will it handle none US keyboards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Although it is a nice idea and I appreciate all efforts to keep our atari's alive this is not something I would buy. The fun of the atari is (for me) the full retro package including original keyboard and case. I once saw an xl/xe built in a pc case with blackbox and harddisk and floppy drive. Well... When it looks like a pc it is a pc for me. Same with this keyboard upgrade. Might be interesting for an xegs ... But does it do console key help? A brand new production run of xe keyboard mylars or complete keyboards would be better (and I would purchase that yes) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Would prefer complete keyboards, too. Would it be feasible to produce something like the best mechanical keyboards for the 800XL or 800 as a "plug-in-replacement"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 )" data-cid="3007223" data-time="1402306366"> Ok that's what I was worried about. BTW, for those that won't have this stacking problem. Could you elaborate on the firmware; Will you be able to define keyboard macros? Or which keys do what, (select, start, reset..)? does it support the extra 1200XL "F" keys? (I can see it being useful to these owners) Also how will it handle none US keyboards? I own 3 DataQue Trans Keys and Two AKI Keyboard interfaces. I just happen to like the AKI the most so when we were making up our mind what to build I did not want to have a 3 Keyboard device to remember the functions to. So we used the AKI abilities and functions and built them into our Keyboard replacement Hardware. So your Keyboard from Europe will work as well as the US Keyboards. We put the 1200xl Functions keys in. So I think it will be easier to tell you the differences between the KRH and the AKI. AKI Has an extra wire that can be used with Ramdisks or other hardware. KRH does not have this function. AKI did not come with the EEProm for user macros. KRH does come with an EEProm for Macros. We have Macros we want to include but they can be changed. START, Select, Option, and Reset Are supported. There is Support for Europen Keyboards as US Keyboards. All the keyboard combination that the AKI supports so Does the KRH ( I did not want to have yet another keyboard macros to learn.) Stephen J Carden http://www.realdos.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 A detailed description of what it does would be helpful to prospective buyers, regardless of whether it's a clone of something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venom4728a Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I am interested, but not sure what it does. Does it allow you to connect usb keyboards or something else? Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Hello Robert On the site it says: "PS2 Wiring Harness" In guess that means either PS2 keyboards or USB keyboards that use a USB2PS2 convertor. Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Hello All! I just an e-mail that or PCB's have been shipped. So I hope we have them in a few days. Once I am sure the PCBs are correct I will turn on the order button. Looks like I may be assembling Keyboard interfaces this weekend. Steve http://www.realdos.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricortes Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Would prefer complete keyboards, too. Would it be feasible to produce something like the best mechanical keyboards for the 800XL or 800 as a "plug-in-replacement"? Somebody has been going the other way. https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/TynemouthSoftware Kind of funny because when the 8 bits were in their heyday, the keyboards were considered inferior to just about everything else. Now they are using them for Window/Mac keyboards. *BUT* notice the price on those. Yes, it is certainly possible to produce a good keyboard, just not at a price people can afford. Figure you would want something like 12" X 4" of PC board for traces/support, That's pretty expensive real estate. Real mechanical keys are expensive, couple of bucks a throw. Since the Atari has 57ish keys, you are talking over $100 just for the keys. The alternative would be to hack an existing IBM style keyboard and would be pretty time consuming. Personally I like using my keyboard in my lap. Feet up on the desk, chair askew so my face is close to the monitor. I even hacked an 800XL to use its keyboard with a 25 pin connector going from the mainboard to the keyboard in a spare case so I could sit it on my lap. I think I still have one 8 bit sans keyboard. Steve's adapter is probably the way I will get it back online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 Somebody has been going the other way. https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/TynemouthSoftware Kind of funny because when the 8 bits were in their heyday, the keyboards were considered inferior to just about everything else. Now they are using them for Window/Mac keyboards. *BUT* notice the price on those. Yes, it is certainly possible to produce a good keyboard, just not at a price people can afford. Figure you would want something like 12" X 4" of PC board for traces/support, That's pretty expensive real estate. Real mechanical keys are expensive, couple of bucks a throw. Since the Atari has 57ish keys, you are talking over $100 just for the keys. The alternative would be to hack an existing IBM style keyboard and would be pretty time consuming. Personally I like using my keyboard in my lap. Feet up on the desk, chair askew so my face is close to the monitor. I even hacked an 800XL to use its keyboard with a 25 pin connector going from the mainboard to the keyboard in a spare case so I could sit it on my lap. I think I still have one 8 bit sans keyboard. Steve's adapter is probably the way I will get it back online. I modified a 400 to connect with an external keyboard via ribbon cable over 20 years ago, but it was a 1200XL keyboard I found in the electonics surplus section of Princess Auto in Grande Prairie Alberta. It was a bit more complicated since the 1200XL has the multiplexer chips on the keyboard circuit board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 Would prefer complete keyboards, too. Would it be feasible to produce something like the best mechanical keyboards for the 800XL or 800 as a "plug-in-replacement"? I do not see anyone investing the money into a new run of Atari Type Keyboards. Lotharek has redesigned a computer Called the MIST and he used Keyboard that were already made. The Atari 65xe, 800XL, 130xe, and Game System all lack a power supply that can run much more than a RamDisk. The 65xe and 130xe Both use a keyboard that is prone to fail. Out of the 9 130xe's, 1 65xe, and Atari Game System only 4 of my Atari Keyboard fully work. I still have a few stock machines that I want to keep stock. However all the cool Atari upgrades that have been built just calls the hardware hacker in us to install as many upgrades as we can. The Atari 8-bit line of computers is one of the best computers to install new hardware in. I have at least 1 of every hardware upgrade built since 2000. Now I purchased this hardware so I could keep RealDos up to date with this new hardware. I just hope the hardware designers keep building new hardware that tests what we think the boundries are for the 8-bit. This is why my web site has only 8-bit info on it. http://www.realdos.net Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 (edited) Although it is a nice idea and I appreciate all efforts to keep our atari's alive this is not something I would buy. The fun of the atari is (for me) the full retro package including original keyboard and case. I once saw an xl/xe built in a pc case with blackbox and harddisk and floppy drive. Well... When it looks like a pc it is a pc for me. Same with this keyboard upgrade. Might be interesting for an xegs ... But does it do console key help? A brand new production run of xe keyboard mylars or complete keyboards would be better (and I would purchase that yes) A brand new run of keyboard mylars will not help a keyboard that is flawed in it design. I for one have 3 Atari's that I have installed in Tower cases. My Atari Tower I run many upgrades in a single computer so the Atari Power supply can not carry enough current. Also the upgrades would not fit in the classic Atari Case. Also putting the Atari hardware into a metal case cuts down on rf interference. so what I am saying is we each have different uses for our Ataris and we both get enjoyment out of our hobbies. Yes the help key works. I also like the fact I use the same keyboard layout on my Windows, Linux, and Atari Computers. Also anyone else wantting to put an Atari into a Tower case will need this Keyboard interface or one like it. Stephen J. Carden http://www.realdos.net Edited June 10, 2014 by Stephen J. Carden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 RF Interference? Seriously? I thought we all pointed and laughed these days at the huge metal shields the FCC made Atari wrap around their motherboards? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 A detailed description of what it does would be helpful to prospective buyers, regardless of whether it's a clone of something else. Hello FJC! Yes I have user manual to write as well as install instructions. I am working on the documents you are requesting. I did get an e-mail that our pcbs have been shipped. I am nervas about the pcb's. I know our prototype works but until I have a working production board in my hands I am on pins and needles. We also did a short run of PCB's so the per board cost were much higher than if I have ordered 1000 boards. I just hope Half of all the people I have chatted with that wanted a keyboard interface purchase one.We are testing the water and have no profit in this project. We are just going to sell the excess Keyboard Hardware we do not need. But I will be a happy person to have Keyboard hardware for all my Atari Computers. I have 6 130xe that have keyboard problems. Steve http://www.realdos.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen J. Carden Posted June 10, 2014 Author Share Posted June 10, 2014 I am interested, but not sure what it does. Does it allow you to connect usb keyboards or something else? Robert At the moment this Keyboard interface uses ps2 type keyboards. We are just wanting to sell of the Keyboard hardware we do not need but had to purchase to get a professional pcb made. If this goes well I will look into doing a keyboard interface that uses USB. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 A brand new run of keyboard mylars will not help a keyboard that is flawed in it design. You really have to explain this. I am also pretty sure you are wrong about this. I have all types of XE keyboards, and I have more than 100 XE's here in my house (Yes I'm completely out of my mind, and pretty neurotic when it comes to atari equipment) and only one type of the XE keyboards is failing. The other types do not fail, and probably never will fail (well never... I mean the next 25-40 years I'm pretty sure they will last error free). If those bad-quality keyboards could be fixed by a GOOD mylar, I'm pretty sure those keyboards can be saved. So I do not see why that solutions would not help a keyboard that is flawed in it design; while the mylar IS the flaw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tregare Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 mylar keyboards are by design flawed and prone to failure. there is a reason the ibm keyboards used a heavy duty mechanical switch, they last just about forever unless exposed to a corrosive atmosphere. some of the non mechanical switch keyboards use a mylar film with traces and pads on them and use a conductive contact on a foam pad on the bottom of the key, all of the foams will break down eventually. some of them turn into this nasty tar like substance that is a pain to clean off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 mylar keyboards are by design flawed and prone to failure. there is a reason the ibm keyboards used a heavy duty mechanical switch, they last just about forever unless exposed to a corrosive atmosphere. some of the non mechanical switch keyboards use a mylar film with traces and pads on them and use a conductive contact on a foam pad on the bottom of the key, all of the foams will break down eventually. some of them turn into this nasty tar like substance that is a pain to clean off. Yes, that is the theory, and theoretical it is true. But now in real life. I have all types of Atari keyboards, and guess what: most issues with the mechanical keyboards (except for one type of Mylar keyboard on the XE line) The only other issue I see quite a lot with the Mylar keyboards is that dust or other dirt is preventing a key to work, but after a while the key starts back working again. (Especially with old mylar-based keyboards on 800) I always used the mechanical keyboards on the 800xl, until those started to fail (I suppose solder joints getting loose or pcb-traces with cracks….) So I switched back on my 800xl's with mylar-based keyboard. Works perfect. So although the theory proves I'm wrong, the daily practice shows me the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Have to agree there. I've had at least as many dead keys on AWC mechanical XL keyboards as I have on mylar XL keyboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 On the (European?) 600XL's for instance you are much better of with a Mylar type keyboard than a mechanical. The mechanical 600XL keyboards I have are all of a terrible quality (keys that get stuck, keys that have a strange feeling/feedback, a lot of oxidation on the connection-parts)… The mylar type keyboard with the slightly bigger keys, and the inverse-video-style 'CONTROL, ARROWS, CLR etc.' print, are by far the best choice on 600xl. I recently bought a never used 600XL with that keyboard from UK. It's UK PAL, so I assume these keyboards were there available too. It's a great machine, I keep it for future use. To get back ontopic. Best Electronics sells replacement mylars for XE. Has anyone here ever tried such an upgrade? Is it good? Does it last? I don't want to trash Cardens project; it's great for people who like that, and as written before: I honestly appreciate every a8 related project that keeps our a8's alive. (I see especially a use for the mod in an atari XEGS) but for me personally I want my atari's to be as original as possible, which also means that I type on a keyboard that might not give the best typing experience (although I must say that an atari 1200XL comes close to the best typing experience ever) but it does mean that I type on the computer I also typed on when I was 7 years old. That's what counts for me; and I am very aware that what counts for me, does not mean that it counts for everybody Speaking of 1200XL keyboard. Only problem I have with that keyboard are the connection points where the keyboard mylar touches the PCB. So yes: that is also a mylar related issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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