AV Why didn't later atar 7800s have built-in AV ports as well as RF out?

[Prosystemsearch]

 

Exactly. They didn't want to 'invest' in the 7800. They wanted its revenue to fund computer projects.

And that's why Warner Communications should have sold Atari's home console and computer division to Paramount, Sony, IBM, or even Disney or NEC.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Prosystemsearch

[Bill Loguidice]

And that's why Warner Communications should have sold Atari's home console and computer division to Paramount, Sony, IBM, or even Disney or NEC.

 

It's practically a given that none of those entities would have wanted a disastrously money losing business like that. Warner Communications didn't understand the business, and all of those other entities have proven at one point or another that they didn't understand the business, so, even if it were a possible scenario, it's hard to see how the outcome would have been any different. There's a reason why we got what essentially amounted to a single wealthy individual buying up the relevant portions of the business rather than another huge Warner-like entity.

[8th lutz]

And that's why Warner Communications should have sold Atari's home console and computer division to Paramount, Sony, IBM, or even Disney or NEC.

Disney would have been a terrible fit for Atari back in 1984 based on the problems Disney had at the time. Disney in 1984 didn't have the money like it does now.

 

Disney was not in great financial shape and couldn't really handle owning Atari in 1984. Walt Disney Productions matter of fact was financially vulnerable despite its film library because of the recent history of Walt Disney Productions offered few recent film successes at the time and the leadership team couldn't keep with other studios matter of fact.

 

Disney in 1984 even had to face a hostile bid by Reliance Group Holdings. 1984 also was the year Michael Eisner became the CEO of Disney because Disney was hurting as a company.

 

Disney by the early 1980's got 70 percent of their income from theme parks matter of fact. All this info points the last thing Disney needed was Atari's home console and computer division back in 1984.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2014 by 8th lutz

[Shinju]

Shenanigans!

[Prosystemsearch]

 

It's practically a given that none of those entities would have wanted a disastrously money losing business like that. Warner Communications didn't understand the business, and all of those other entities have proven at one point or another that they didn't understand the business, so, even if it were a possible scenario, it's hard to see how the outcome would have been any different. There's a reason why we got what essentially amounted to a single wealthy individual buying up the relevant portions of the business rather than another huge Warner-like entity.

 

 

Disney would have been a terrible fit for Atari back in 1984 based on the problems Disney had at the time. Disney in 1984 didn't have the money like it does now.

 

Disney was not in great financial shape and couldn't really handle owning Atari in 1984. Walt Disney Productions matter of fact was financially vulnerable despite its film library because of the recent history of Walt Disney Productions offered few recent film successes at the time and the leadership team couldn't keep with other studios matter of fact.

 

Disney in 1984 even had to face a hostile bid by Reliance Group Holdings. 1984 also was the year Michael Eisner became the CEO of Disney because Disney was hurting as a company.

 

Disney by the early 1980's got 70 percent of their income from theme parks matter of affect. All this info points the last thing Disney needed was Atari's home console and computer division back in 1984.

 

 

 

Okay Disney I can surely understand. But IBM was not in such a pickle. Neither was Sony.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

 

Okay Disney I can surely understand. But IBM was not in such a pickle. Neither was Sony.

 

IBM had little interest in the consumer side of the business, particularly after the disaster with the PCjr. Besides the necessary margins just not being there with Atari's products, it's difficult to see how an IBM would benefit taking on an almost completely unrelated product line and business. Considering they never did recover in the home and eventually lost the PC-centric industry they established, in the world of implausibles where they took on the business, it's unlikely they would have stuck with it.

 

As for Sony, that would have been a better fit, but they already had their own home computer division pumping out MSX-based systems and software in their home country, and it's difficult to see how a Japanese company at that time would have been able to properly integrate a primarily US-based business. Keep in mind we're talking several years before Nintendo successfully brought the NES state-side, albeit with the help of Worlds of Wonder (with Sega following soon thereafter with help from Tonka). The timing just doesn't really line up for any type of synergy.

 

Again, I put forth that if Atari really was enticing at that time, a large entity would have swooped in rather than Tramiel. It wasn't, so they didn't. It became burdensome baggage to the huge entity that was Time Warner (obviously a good portion of that was on them).

 

In any case, randomly throwing possible suitors out there just because they're large entities who may or may not have survived to today doesn't make them viable candidates. It's not that simple.

[Prosystemsearch]

Well, that leaves Paramount Inc., NEC, and Radioshack.

[Jinks]

Did you guys ever look into time travel?

[Bill Loguidice]

Well, that leaves Paramount Inc., NEC, and Radioshack.

 

As briefly discussed in message 39, Tandy would not be a good fit because they already had multiple computer lines and only briefly flirted with videogames by rebranding the Intellivision. They considered a Mattel Electronics purchase, but I just don't think it was practical for the company to pull off such a costly maneuver. They ultimately decided to stick with their own computer strategy, before briefly flirting with set top boxes with the VIS through their Memorex division. As we know, Tandy eventually sold off their computer division anyway, so it wouldn't have been much of a help either way.

 

Paramount was not a home electronics entity and would have been in the same position as Time Warner. NEC, similar to Sony, was a Japanese firm, with all of the baggage that that entailed at the time. They wouldn't deviate outside computer stuff until the release of the PC Engine, and then only in their home country. When they tried to branch off into the US, obviously that proved disastrous without the right licensing deals to bring the best Japanese software to these shores.

 

In any case, again, it's critical we consider the year when the Tramiel deal happened and why it was him who got the portion of Atari that he did. It was in no way an enticing investment/risk for a large company to undertake. Time Warner kind of spoiled the proverbial milk for something like that to happen. It didn't help that the home videogame business in the US was already in tatters, with no one really knowing if there'd ever be a real future in North America for the segment. On top of that, as we've discussed ad naseum elsewhere, Atari's 8-bit computer line wasn't exactly burning up the sales charts. Tell me again how any of that would have been inviting to a major company? It wasn't, which is why Atari got Tramiel. To his credit, he lasted just about as long as Commodore did, and both lasted longer than just about any other company not named Apple who was at it a significant amount of time.

[Austin]

The NES and SMS had awesome soundchips

 

IMO, the stock SMS sound chip is lacking big time. It was good for '86, but it was pretty much tapped out immediately--games from '86 don't really sound any different than games from '92, unlike the NES where devs really learned to tap the chip and get some truly beefy and hard-hitting sounds (i.e., listen to Wrecking Crew, then listen to Silver Surfer; huge jump!). Sure, the SMS PSG chip isn't on the same level as the TIA, but man.. I wish the NA units got the additional YM2413 sound chip like the Japanese units did, now that would have been awesome!

[Andromeda Stardust]

Did you guys ever look into time travel?

It would not do any good even if you could. Firstly you'd need 1980s and earlier currency. Show up in 1985 with 2010 bills or 2000s state quarters, or a current photo ID from the future, and you're liable to get interrogated.

 

Logistics aside, video games were dead pre-NES, and people would laugh at you if you told them 8-bit PCs were a dead end and home consoles were going to make a rapid comeback. Once the NES released, the Atari brand became synonymous with "suck." Sad but true. Our rose-tinted nostalgia glasses won't change the current opinion of 80s consumers and industry leaders.

 

The Tramiels being penny pinchers didn't help but the Atari brand may have sank whether they released a quality product (Pokey chips embedded in the 7800) or not. The XE computer line I know little about, but it's a fact there's very little nostalgia for home computers as there is for home consoles. Sadly, most obsolete 8-bit computer systems were scrapped for their metal content or simply thrown in the trash, just like dinosaur PCs get the same treatment today. There was very little resale market for consoles back in the day, and this market was non-existent for vintage computers. Hence many many more consoles got rescued from the trash compared to home computers. Worse yet the medium for games was floppy disks which were easily pirated so cartridges despite being more expensive were also much more secure. This is a blessing in disguise because floppy discs are prone to deterioration and drives broke down while carts kept on kicking.

 

Disney would have been a terrible fit for Atari back in 1984 based on the problems Disney had at the time. Disney in 1984 didn't have the money like it does now.

 

Disney was not in great financial shape and couldn't really handle owning Atari in 1984. Walt Disney Productions matter of fact was financially vulnerable despite its film library because of the recent history of Walt Disney Productions offered few recent film successes at the time and the leadership team couldn't keep with other studios matter of fact.

 

Disney in 1984 even had to face a hostile bid by Reliance Group Holdings. 1984 also was the year Michael Eisner became the CEO of Disney because Disney was hurting as a company.

 

Disney by the early 1980's got 70 percent of their income from theme parks matter of fact. All this info points the last thing Disney needed was Atari's home console and computer division back in 1984.

Disney's main problem was relying on the perpetual rerelease of decades old movies in the theaters instead of creating new films. This strategy worked on an 8-year cycle because children were young and largely unaware of the movies. Those movies were new to them at the time but the home video market killed it for box office rehashes. We have disney's "Vault" legacy to thank them for that. Just release the danged movies and keep them out for consumers to buy, geeze.

[Bill Loguidice]

Sadly, most obsolete 8-bit computer systems were scrapped for their metal content or simply thrown in the trash, just like dinosaur PCs get the same treatment today. There was very little resale market for consoles back in the day, and this market was non-existent for vintage computers. Hence many many more consoles got rescued from the trash compared to home computers. Worse yet the medium for games was floppy disks which were easily pirated so cartridges despite being more expensive were also much more secure. This is a blessing in disguise because floppy discs are prone to deterioration and drives broke down while carts kept on kicking.

 

There needs to be data to back up statements like that. There are probably a combined millions of 70s and 80s computers still kicking around and no particular evidence that they were scrapped/recycled at a significantly higher rate than their console counterparts.

 

It's obvious that loose cartridges have more value/last longer than their loose disk/tape counterparts, but things even out a bit when all of the packaging is present. It's also true that disk and tape drives and their respective mediums are prone to more failure and wear and tear than their cartridge-based counterparts without all the moving parts, but it's still not a permanent medium. Those parts do eventually wear out as well. In either case, preservation is key, and I think even though it's not perfect, the vast majority of stuff is archived in one form or another for future generations. Eventually it will all be emulation/simulation/reproduction, but that's true of any long-lived medium.

[Shinju]

 

IMO, the stock SMS sound chip is lacking big time. It was good for '86, but it was pretty much tapped out immediately--games from '86 don't really sound any different than games from '92, unlike the NES where devs really learned to tap the chip and get some truly beefy and hard-hitting sounds (i.e., listen to Wrecking Crew, then listen to Silver Surfer; huge jump!). Sure, the SMS PSG chip isn't on the same level as the TIA, but man.. I wish the NA units got the additional YM2413 sound chip like the Japanese units did, now that would have been awesome!

 

 

The Mark III in japan had FM audio support for SMS games that made a huge leap in 8bit audio output for Sega, Why it was never added to the US system is beyond me as we always got the short end of the stick when it came to stuff like that and the NES audio chip.

[7800]

Is it possible that the Tramiel's really didn't want to release the 7800, but since it was already made they figured what the hell... lets just put it out there?

[bennybingo]

Did you guys ever look into time travel?

 

It would not do any good even if you could.

Sure it would...all I would need to do is get a hold of Biff's sports almanac! :thumbsup:

 

http://www.bttfstore.com/bttf2_almanac_biffs_garage.jpg

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Sure it would...all I would need to do is get a hold of Biff's sports almanac! :thumbsup:

 

http://www.bttfstore.com/bttf2_almanac_biffs_garage.jpg

Oh yeah, that dude in Back to the Future II who got the sports almanac and started betting on sports teams. World was a gross different place by then. Wouldn't the "butterfly effect" have rendered most of the results inaccurate after a short time span?

[Lynxpro]

Atari should have given more scrutiny to GCC and ordered them and some of their own engineers to have the GUMBY chip built into the 7800.

Atari Inc didn't have control; Warner was in control with some Atari Inc input.

[Lynxpro]

Did you guys ever look into time travel?

You'd have to go back to 1976 right after Warner purchased Atari and convince Manny Gerard of Warner on the merits of buying MOS Technology for $1 million. MOS went to Al Alcorn begging for Atari to buy them and he thought it might be a good idea to do so. MOS was in debt because Jack Tramiel purposefully didn't pay his bills with them so he could hurt them financially and buy them up cheap. Manny didn't think it wise due to the massive capital expense semiconductor manufacturing involves but neither Manny nor Al wanted to get in bed with Tramiel so they negotiated a deal so Atari would buy 50,000 6502s from MOS and then in returned received an unlimited option of manufacturing 6502s through a secondary source [synertech, etc]. Al said it was a better deal because Manny was right and Atari bought millions of 6502s from Synertech.

 

However, had Warner/Atari bought MOS dirt-cheap then, they could've either kept it or merged it with Synertech or Motorola. Either way, Tramiel wouldn't have ended up with MOS so Commodore would've never owned the VIC GPUs or the SID, never created the PET/Vic-20/C64, and never would've been able to launch their insane and destructive price war that hurt Atari more than is ever stated on these threads. That's one component in the fall of Atari Inc that could've been prevented easily.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Interesting spin on the Atari fiasco. I hadn't thought of MOS technology or Commodor's involvement.

[+wood_jl]

In any case, randomly throwing possible suitors out there just because they're large entities who may or may not have survived to today doesn't make them viable candidates. It's not that simple.

 

Exactly!

 

That's why there's no point in zero-knowledge speculation as to why Sony, Panasonic, Chevrolet, Toyota, Pilsbury, Ginsu, Briggs & Stratton, Jordache, Weber, Levis, Proctor & Gamble, Caterpillar, Homelite, Standard & Poors, General Dynamics, Pugeot, Betty Crocker, Ford, Toshiba, Learjet, Coca-Cola, Boeing, McDonald's, Nissan, Microsoft, or WHOEVER should have bought them. What happened, happened for a reason(s).

[+wood_jl]

The XE computer line I know little about, but it's a fact there's very little nostalgia for home computers as there is for home consoles. Sadly, most obsolete 8-bit computer systems were scrapped for their metal content or simply thrown in the trash, just like dinosaur PCs get the same treatment today. There was very little resale market for consoles back in the day, and this market was non-existent for vintage computers. Hence many many more consoles got rescued from the trash compared to home computers. Worse yet the medium for games was floppy disks which were easily pirated so cartridges despite being more expensive were also much more secure. This is a blessing in disguise because floppy discs are prone to deterioration and drives broke down while carts kept on kicking.

 

The **real** blessing in disguise is that classic computer floppy images have largely been archived, and many classic computer enthusiasts have multiple devices for reading this images from SD-card, CF card, (or direct from PC), so that actual floppies are not necessary.

 

Is it a fact that there's "very little" nostalgia for home computers? Hmmm, well, that's your opinion, and mine doesn't matter. Let's look for other evidence. While certainly not scientific, let's look at the AtariAge Forums screen:

 

 

So, as of this writing, there's 29,362 topics for the Atari 2600 with 433,163 replies. That's Atari's #1 product that the brand name is nearly synonymous with.

 

There's 15,607 topics with 264,914 replies for the Atari 8-bit computer. That's probably Atari's #1 computer line. It's more than 50%. Everything else is dwarfed by these two.

 

So I'm not sure that I'd assert that there's "very little nostalgia" for home computers. Rather, it's more likely that you are too young to have owned a "home computer" from 1979 - 1985 (roughly) era, and YOU have little nostalgia for them, for you never had one. But don't say that there's "very little" nostalgia simply because you are not interested in home computers, because you were not part of that scene. There is lots of nostalgia. Is there more for consoles? Probably. Home computer owners tended to be [relatively] early computer enthusiasts, which implies at least an interest in computers, which in turn implies a semblance of intellect. Every shithead that's ever been born is interested in consoles, so there's naturally going to be a greater number. But that doesn't mean that there's "very little nostalgia" for home computers. The vibrant hobbyist/upgrade/device market for the machines from the era (Atari/Commodore/Apple/Tandy/Texas Instruments/etc.) would be non-existent if that were the case. Yet it does exist.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I'll admit, I have little interest in 8-bit computers (Atari, commodore, etc...). I also had little interest in Atari prior to buying my first Atari console (4-swtch woodgrain) in 2012. I now have more posts on AtariAge than I do on NintendoAge. I dunno; maybe the community is nicer here, or maybe it's the thriving homebrew market for Atari.

 

Your "shithead" comment is partially correct, however I wouldn't use the level of interest in an Atari community as a sampler for the level of interest in large scale retro gaming. The vast majority of the "shitheads" you mention could care less about Atari and only give a flying flip about NES era & up. Trust me, having grown up in the Nintendo generation, I was one of them for many years...

Edited July 1, 2014 by stardust4ever

[S1500]

In some parallel universe, there exists an Atari 7800 with A/V outs, the Euro gamepad everywhere, and no less than 4 RPGs available to the console.

[Bill Loguidice]

However, had Warner/Atari bought MOS dirt-cheap then, they could've either kept it or merged it with Synertech or Motorola. Either way, Tramiel wouldn't have ended up with MOS so Commodore would've never owned the VIC GPUs or the SID, never created the PET/Vic-20/C64, and never would've been able to launch their insane and destructive price war that hurt Atari more than is ever stated on these threads. That's one component in the fall of Atari Inc that could've been prevented easily.

 

While it's true that Commodore's race to rock bottom pricing combined with relatively powerful hardware spelled doom for the competition in the low end of the market, it's arguable whether Atari would have been the actual beneficiary in an alternate universe where Commodore didn't exist in the form that we came to know. The competitive landscape would have been very different, likely with many other companies either staying in the game longer (Texas Instruments, Timex, Coleco) or choosing to enter the market in force (the MSX standard).

[Rhomaios]

 

The **real** blessing in disguise is that classic computer floppy images have largely been archived, and many classic computer enthusiasts have multiple devices for reading this images from SD-card, CF card, (or direct from PC), so that actual floppies are not necessary.

 

Is it a fact that there's "very little" nostalgia for home computers? Hmmm, well, that's your opinion, and mine doesn't matter. Let's look for other evidence. While certainly not scientific, let's look at the AtariAge Forums screen:

 

So, as of this writing, there's 29,362 topics for the Atari 2600 with 433,163 replies. That's Atari's #1 product that the brand name is nearly synonymous with.

 

There's 15,607 topics with 264,914 replies for the Atari 8-bit computer. That's probably Atari's #1 computer line. It's more than 50%. Everything else is dwarfed by these two.

 

Exactly. Saying that there is no nostalgia for home computers is a statement of profound ignorance of those many groups who love it. Not only are wood_jl's numbers indicative, but Lemon64 has 430317 posts in 35832 threads (all not including the off-topic forums) and 11290 registered users. That's about as much as the 2600 forum here.