flashjazzcat Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I have to say, I hate glued-together shells you can't easily get into without causing damage. The Tucker shells are one of the most appealing things about any AtariMax cart, and it appears to be a marketing advantage that Steve is keen to protect. As for this: of course I can sort of see the reasoning behind not wanting a screw hole though the middle of a generic shell, just in case what goes in it happens not to have a hole there. If only the push-fit OSS design had become a standard... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I have to say, I hate glued-together shells you can't easily get into without causing damage. The Tucker shells are one of the most appealing things about any AtariMax cart, and it appears to be a marketing advantage that Steve is keen to protect. As for this: of course I can sort of see the reasoning behind not wanting a screw hole though the middle of a generic shell, just in case what goes in it happens not to have a hole there. If only the push-fit OSS design had become a standard... Hi flashjazzcat, I believe that the ICD SpartaDOS and even the OSS carts used a post and hole method. Could be implemented, but it does take up board space. It's a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Yep: AtariMax, OSS and SDX use post and hole attachment. Tucker once sent me an AtariMax cart with a pass-thru which came through a slot cut in the standard shell. Worked fine and looked OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Yep: AtariMax, OSS and SDX use post and hole attachment. Tucker once sent me an AtariMax cart with a pass-thru which came through a slot cut in the standard shell. Worked fine and looked OK. Could you send me picts of that cartridge. All I have to go by is the original SpartaDOS cart. Merry Christmas! Off to visit my brother's wife's family. I hope I survive. Edited December 25, 2015 by Dropcheck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Could you send me picts of that cartridge. All I have to go by is the original SpartaDOS cart. Here it is from the pass-thru side: The hole could have been a lot smaller and cleaner, but these were never intended to be production items. That said, it would be nice to re-fashion the pass-thru, but for that I need another shell, and I can't get a shell without buying another AtariMax cart, which would then be without a shell when I put it on this cart... sigh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Island2Live Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 Hey Dropcheck, thank you SO MUCH for creating a shell AND (!) putting it online for others to have a look or to just use that (for example for 3D printing). I've just downloaded your design from your website and must say it's a very clever design. Just because you've made a shell where you can one and the same design element as the upper and the lower part of the shell. Not sure how good a PCB will fit ... but it's definitely worth a try! Thank you again (feel yourself hugged please). Professional Molding Regarding professional molding: I think it's overall too expensive. The problem is the form which need to be manufactured by professional plastic molders (because they know from experience how plastic in the form will react when pressed into). It's made from aluminium for lower production charges and $5.000 is the absolute lower charge for this. I think for low production runs the best way would be a 3D printing machine. That's probably the way I will go. Kind regards (and Merry Christmas to all), Henrik Fisch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Going through what I read about these molds and needing to poor liquid hot melted plastic into them and taking awhile to produce each shell. How hard would it be to make a mold that can make several shells at the same time. Lets say 2 or 4, being double the width and length so you can poor the liquid plastic into them. You can also make several separate identical mold also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Well..... I couldn't leave well enough alone. flashjazzcat mentioned he hated having to take apart shells that had been glue. Sometimes damaging them in the process. He suggested a post and hole method used by OSS and ICD. At first I thought it would require going to a second mold, one for each half. And I thought it would require giving up board space. After thinking about it and playing with several likely options I came up with the first modification. There's a new file on my site with the mod. Check it out. If someone has a working 3D printer, try it out. Let me know how it turns out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) Going through what I read about these molds and needing to poor liquid hot melted plastic into them and taking awhile to produce each shell. How hard would it be to make a mold that can make several shells at the same time. Lets say 2 or 4, being double the width and length so you can poor the liquid plastic into them. You can also make several separate identical mold also. Unfortunately when you start talking about molds of that size, you're not likely to be doing it in your garage at home. Most hand operated molds a hobbiest would use turn out parts the size of the single half of the shell. Sometimes a little bigger, but not much. It's not that it can't be done, but most likely you're talking about a commercial plastics firm again. And the bigger the mold the more costly it is. It's a game of trade offs. Edited December 26, 2015 by Dropcheck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 depends, I can see 2 halves at a time maybe 4 depending on the molder... also, sometimes slightly heating the mold helps to keep things moving along.... It does require a bit of pressure to get the plastic in... more than one mold set would be the way to go.... they do take some time to cool.... make the mold thick enough to handle some pressure but thin enough to cool quickly... watch a couple of videos on it...... you will see what I mean..... I had the good fortune to help my cousin run an extruder and a molder in the early 90's.....it was very hot in that place during the summer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Hello Lenore I see you've implemented some of my ideas . You're holding the PCB by the flat side. Plus you're using one design for both sides (I mentioned that ages ago). Three things though: - Most cartridge shells I've seen use different designs for top and bottom shell, to make sure you can't plug the cart in in the wrong way. Aren't you afraid people will be able to plug the cart in in the wrong way and damage the cart and/or computer? - Isn't the thickness of the plastic in the two locations where you places the wholes going to be very thin? Since the edges of most PCBs aren't sharp but a bit rounded, why not raise the deeper part of the ledge that holds the PCB in it's place a little bit and move the whole (and pole) a bit more to the middle of the ledge/ridge (sorry, language skills are leaving me at the moment. I'm trying to cure that with a glass of Coke (the black stuff, not the white stuff, with the sugar and the caffeine!!! Plus some licorice, winegums etc.)) to increase the wall thickness. - In your design, you use two ledges per side for the poles and holes and one ledge/ridge that spans the whole width of the shell. Maybe you could move that last ridge back and put it between the ridges/ledges with the pole and hole that are at the moment closest to this ridge/legde. Sincerely Mathy (who really hopes you understand what he's trying to explain) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 Hello guys For those who still believe 3D-printing is the way to go: There's lot's of people who bought a 3D-printer who have by now discovered that most of the time, it's doing nothing. Some of these people are willing to print stuff for other people, for a small price of course. You should be able to find these people (some of them might be living close by) via the internet. Meaning you can borrow their experience and their hardware, which will save you money, time, the need to learn and the need to explain to your partner, why you need a 3D printer. And their seem to be small print shops, that also have 3D printers. Sincerely Mathy PS don't we have anybody in our midst that has connections to a tech university, where they do research using injection molding machines? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Only if there were some kind of hubs for 3D printers? ; ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) I had some thoughts about the cartridge shell situation, maybe these ideas are crazy, or have already been tried. 1. Have someone like Albert contact Steve Tucker, and try to convince him that providing his cartridge shell connection would be a very nice thing to do for the Atari community. Maybe Albert could sell them in lots of 10/20/50/100/etc, in his store. Perhaps if someone else were to approach Steve who more represents the community, the results may be better? Of course, if Steve has reasons of his own not to sell the cartridge shells (competitive advantage, although I really don't buy this as a great reason), or perhaps "issues" with some of the people reselling or making copies of the Atarimax stuff (kjmann? others?) this may not fly. 2. The community could bankroll (and thus own) the injections molds to a new cartridge shell. 100 people putting $50 in gets you the $5000, or 250 people putting in $20 each. Of course, I believe that someone trust-worthy would need to "control" the molds and subsequent use, maybe Albert? Maybe someone "elected". Either way, the shells should be able to be used by anyone in the community for any project, possibly with some requirements (see below.) I also think the for the community to get the maximum benefit, and the return on investment, perhaps other conditions would have to be put on the "license" to use these cartridges. Off the top of my head these possibilities come to mind: - ROMs must be released to the community or pay per download options must be provided (perhaps after a set amount of time/units sold.) - If hardware only designs, maybe the full plans/schematics would have to be released to the public after a certain amount of time and/or units have been sold. - small mark-up put on each cartridge and profits given back to investors (I don't think this is a great way to do this from a community point of view.) Edited December 27, 2015 by Shawn Jefferson 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hello Lenore I see you've implemented some of my ideas . You're holding the PCB by the flat side. Plus you're using one design for both sides (I mentioned that ages ago). Three things though: - Most cartridge shells I've seen use different designs for top and bottom shell, to make sure you can't plug the cart in in the wrong way. Aren't you afraid people will be able to plug the cart in in the wrong way and damage the cart and/or computer? Which side is which will be determined by the maker of the cartridge for sale or use. I'm assuming that person will place a label or someother design on one side and then make sure that the pcb is orientated inside correctly so that when the customer inserts the cart with the label facing them everything is right. At least most people will insert the cart with the label facing them. - Isn't the thickness of the plastic in the two locations where you places the wholes going to be very thin? Since the edges of most PCBs aren't sharp but a bit rounded, why not raise the deeper part of the ledge that holds the PCB in it's place a little bit and move the whole (and pole) a bit more to the middle of the ledge/ridge (sorry, language skills are leaving me at the moment. I'm trying to cure that with a glass of Coke (the black stuff, not the white stuff, with the sugar and the caffeine!!! Plus some licorice, winegums etc.)) to increase the wall thickness. Most pcb edges I've had, even the commercial ones, are right angles. Occassionally you have a rounded corner, but usually it's a sharp right angle. The holes and posts were designed not to interfer with board space. I intentionally put them outside of the actual board area. But yes, you do loose some thickness in the walls with the holes, the holes do not go more than 4mm deep in a 10.5 mm deep wall. The posts should have no negative effect in wall thickness on that side. That's one reason I alternated them. There's one hole and one post per side. I'd actually be more concerned with the posts breaking off, then any damage to the wall itself. But that's a problem in any design that uses posts/holes, whether on the sides or in the middle. - In your design, you use two ledges per side for the poles and holes and one ledge/ridge that spans the whole width of the shell. Maybe you could move that last ridge back and put it between the ridges/ledges with the pole and hole that are at the moment closest to this ridge/legde. Sincerely Mathy (who really hopes you understand what he's trying to explain) I think I see what you are talking about. It's about joining the lower post/hole/tabs with the lower crossbeam pcb support. Right? I'll take a look at it, make sure there's no clearance issues with the computer cartridge slot tabs. They extend upto 16 mm into the cartridge when fully seated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hello guys For those who still believe 3D-printing is the way to go: There's lot's of people who bought a 3D-printer who have by now discovered that most of the time, it's doing nothing. Some of these people are willing to print stuff for other people, for a small price of course. You should be able to find these people (some of them might be living close by) via the internet. Meaning you can borrow their experience and their hardware, which will save you money, time, the need to learn and the need to explain to your partner, why you need a 3D printer. And their seem to be small print shops, that also have 3D printers. Sincerely Mathy PS don't we have anybody in our midst that has connections to a tech university, where they do research using injection molding machines? It depends on how many carts you are planning to have 3d printed. Prototypes and small one time runs (upto 30) would work well. Getting anything more than 30 carts printed is more suited to a commercial shop that can afford to do quality control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Hello Lenore Re: Wall thickness/Position of the holes: Something tells me you're talking about the "hole to outside of the cartridge" thickness, while I'm talking about "hole to inside of the cartridge". You have two places on each hole, where the thickness is very close to zero. Since the PCB will be held between the four tabs, why not increase the width of the tabs, so there's a little more "meat" between the holes and the inside of the cartridge? Re: Joining the lower tabs and the lower cross beam PCB support. Yes, that's what I meant. I've looked at some of my cartridges (all three types Atari used) just now. What you might consider, is connecting the cross beam to the tabs instead of directly to the sides of the shell. Instead of the cross beam running strain from top to bottom (With the shell place in the same position as in your "View6"), it would start at the tab, go horizontally to the position where it now is, go down and when it reaches the height of the lower tab, it makes a turn toward that tab. That way, the cross beam would look like an ultra wide "U", where the tips of the "U" are connected to the existing tabs. Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Hey Mathy, Did some rework on the model for post/hole shell. See if that works better for you. It did change the pcb measurements. The lower half is about the same length from cartridge pins as the original Atari pcbs. The upper is compressed though. Edited December 28, 2015 by Dropcheck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Hello Lenore I can't find the picture(s) of the reworked shell. Will I need a cane and a dog soon....? Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madi Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) I believe the modified shell design is HERE (Beta 3D Atari Cartridge Files2). It is the fourth item to choose in the Downloads section (to the right). madi Edited December 28, 2015 by Madi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteym5 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Going back to the first page, it was Albert who had been looking for cartridge shells and be using them for games. He has not posting back on this thread for awhile. I know from experience, the buyers will be looking for a quality long lasting product. If there is the slighted flaw with the shell, label, or with the software, you will see a lot of complaining. That DIY mold thing looks good for a limited run, probably get a few hundred shells. Judging by the limited size of this market, expect around 100 sales per game. We all know there are other media to place these games on, but once you do that, less people may be buying the cartridges and the investment of money, time, and labor may be wasted. Edited December 28, 2015 by peteym5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathy Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Hello Lenore, guys OK, I found the new designs. Looking good. Wall thickness seems to be less of a problem with the new design. I guess in the final design, all poles will be of equal thickness? You could simplify the design, by using a ledge on the left outside of the shell and a ridge on the right outside of the shell. Or vice versa. At the moment, you have three ridges and three ledges per shell. (Damn, toke me a while to figure out how to put that in words. Hope you understand what I mean.) Sincerely Mathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Found a critical error in both the NewAtariShell w/o posts/holes and the one with. It was a dimensioning error that affected the thickness of the bottom or front of the shell. Way too thin. Didn't see it until I started working on the SDX version. Fixed on both now. Any one who dl files prior to this morning needs to delete those and redownload. Sorry. Mathy, I'll look at that suggestion. Thanks. SDX version is coming along okay. Again I am trying to setup a single design for both halves. Getting a little more tricky though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I am hoping to have my 3d printer connected again by the end of the week. I will try the new files ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropcheck Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 (edited) After a few days of wrestling with SolidWorks I think I have the beta 3D printer SDX cartridge design. Please someone try to print it. I'd like to see how close I am to a workable design. As before the dl link should be on the right hand side of my website. Edited January 2, 2016 by Dropcheck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.