LTO Flash! - Intellivision Flash Cartridge Information

[+DZ-Jay]

Mac has FDTI built in, to the point if I install new driver on their website, Mac OS X Stella can't talk to the AtariVox+ through the VoxUSB adapter.

When I uninstalled those drivers, the AtariVox+ starts working again.

 

Thanks. I just saw the note about having to install drivers, so I assumed I had to. Good to know.

[intvnut]

 

So it means that it is compatible with the Keyboard Component??

 

I haven't been able to test yet with either of my Keyboard Components, since they're packed for the move, but I did make an effort to avoid gratuitous incompatibilities. Frank Palazzolo is going to try with his unit. (He was going to about a week ago; I haven't heard back yet.)

 

I suspect it won't work out of the box, but that can be refined with a firmware update pretty easily. The Intellicart had a physical incompatibility with the KC (required cutting and rerouting traces). Chad avoided that issue on the CC3, and I avoided that same issue on the LTO Flash.

Edited September 4, 2016 by intvnut

[wolfy62]

 

So it means that it is compatible with the Keyboard Component??

Hey DZ, just stick to the Hive or whatever project you are working on.

 

From my outside perspective this one is done, and actually for sale!

[+DZ-Jay]

Hey DZ, just stick to the Hive or whatever project you are working on.

 

From my outside perspective this one is done, and actually for sale!

 

Thank you so much for your concern about my interests and projects. I know it is very important for you to keep track of my comments, so let me help you a little with some context here. Perhaps if you add them to your Journal of DZ Activity, we won't have to revisit this in the future.

 

I do my due diligence before installing any software or device on my computer, especially if it calls for installation of special drivers and other delicate software. It's not like LTO (or FTDI) is going to guarantee my machine, which is why all those disclaimers are there. I would do the same if the Hive or CC3 required any special drivers.

 

However, since it's already been explained that the FTDI drivers are already included with the OS distribution, I guess this is a non-issue.

 

You may go back to lurking in my shadow until my next post.

 

Cheers!

-dZ.

[+DZ-Jay]

 

I haven't been able to test yet with either of my Keyboard Components, since they're packed for the move, but I did make an effort to avoid gratuitous incompatibilities. Frank Palazzolo is going to try with his unit. (He was going to about a week ago; I haven't heard back yet.)

 

I suspect it won't work out of the box, but that can be refined with a firmware update pretty easily. The Intellicart had a physical incompatibility with the KC (required cutting and rerouting traces). Chad avoided that issue on the CC3, and I avoided that same issue on the LTO Flash.

 

By the way, for the benefit of those like Wolfy who seem to be humour-challenged, that was a joke to say that there are 3 incompatible devices, not two. I didn't mean to imply that Keyboard Component compatibility was a requirement.

[intvnut]

As an owner of a couple KCs, I do want it to work in a KC, FWIW. I just can't test it right now, and it seemed silly to delay it for that. That's why I said known incompatible. I just don't know the current status on the KC.

 

Given that the only person I know of to plug an Intellicart or CC3 into a KC (other than me) already has an LTO Flash!, I'm not worried I'll leave too many users out in the cold with that. KC compatibility was never a release requirement.

Edited September 4, 2016 by intvnut

[+DZ-Jay]

As an owner of a couple KCs, I do want it to work in a KC, FWIW. I just can't test it right now, and it seemed silly to delay it for that. That's why I said known incompatible. I just don't know the current status on the KC.

 

That's awesome!

 

I really wasn't expecting that, which is why I joked about it.

[iesposta]

...

 

However, since it's already been explained that the FTDI drivers are already included with the OS distribution, I guess this is a non-issue.

 

You may go back to lurking in my shadow until my next post.

 

Cheers!

-dZ.

 

It is good to read what you posted about drivers!

 

I just wanted to add my experience with their website drivers.

It took me months to discover that uninstalling the driver was the fix for making my FTDI VoxUSB adapter to work on Mac when it worked on the same Mac under VMWare Win 7!

I don't know what version those built-in FTDI drivers were added to OS X.

I have 10.10.xx, not the newest 10.11.xx

 

To read "if necessary" as you quoted is good because it means try it first, then if there are connection or transfer or other issues, try installing the website drivers. They uninstall easily enough.

 

Macs seem to be getting further away from "it just works", however I wouldn't trade them for another operating system.

Install the newer Java from Oracle's website, Mac OS will continue to use the older Java built-in, unless you follow some websit guides using the terminal with some very strange commands and symbolic links.

[+DZ-Jay]

 

It is good to read what you posted about drivers!

 

I just wanted to add my experience with their website drivers.

It took me months to discover that uninstalling the driver was the fix for making my FTDI VoxUSB adapter to work on Mac when it worked on the same Mac under VMWare Win 7!

I don't know what version those built-in FTDI drivers were added to OS X.

I have 10.10.xx, not the newest 10.11.xx

 

To read "if necessary" as you quoted is good because it means try it first, then if there are connection or transfer or other issues, try installing the website drivers. They uninstall easily enough.

 

Macs seem to be getting further away from "it just works", however I wouldn't trade them for another operating system.

Install the newer Java from Oracle's website, Mac OS will continue to use the older Java built-in, unless you follow some websit guides using the terminal with some very strange commands and symbolic links.

 

Yeah, it's a pity, which is why I'm sticking with 10.8.5 for some time longer.

 

That said, I'll give the software a go soon. I'll first wait for early adopters to play with it when they get the first batches of LTO Flash! and for order fulfillment to stabilize after the initial rush.

 

-dZ.

[+intvsteve]

What we've found during testing was that the newer versions of Mac OS X never needed the FTDI drivers at all, and everything just worked. Systems running Mac OS X 10.8.x and 10.7.x seem a mixed bag. Some of the test machines I've used never needed the FTDI drivers to be explicitly installed. Some (including my dev 10.8.5 machine) did need it. I'd have been much happier to never need to add those notes to the INTV Funhouse website, nor the .dmg.

 

Heck, I can't update iTunes on my dev machine. (I've never used it, but it keeps nagging.) Last time I did, just to shut up the darn update prompt, the iTunes update broke Xcode. That was fun.

[+DZ-Jay]

What we've found during testing was that the newer versions of Mac OS X never needed the FTDI drivers at all, and everything just worked. Systems running Mac OS X 10.8.x and 10.7.x seem a mixed bag. Some of the test machines I've used never needed the FTDI drivers to be explicitly installed. Some (including my dev 10.8.5 machine) did need it. I'd have been much happier to never need to add those notes to the INTV Funhouse website, nor the .dmg.

 

Heck, I can't update iTunes on my dev machine. (I've never used it, but it keeps nagging.) Last time I did, just to shut up the darn update prompt, the iTunes update broke Xcode. That was fun.

 

I use Mac OS X 10.8.5 and iTunes 11, and don't care for many of the issues and changes included in the latest versions of both. Judging by some support forums I've visited, I'm not the only one either.

 

It's good that OS X 10.9 and later "just work" with the built-in FTDI drivers, but many other "features" the system has don't "just work," which is why I won't be upgrading solely for this.

 

Thanks for the information, though.

 

-dZ.

[intvnut]

And just to be clear: The two main machines used to develop this beast run MacOS X 10.7.5 and 10.8.5. It's been thoroughly tested on both OSes. We've beaten up on it thoroughly, and made sure to keep the software well inside the lines, to avoid making the FTDI driver cranky. Despite the scary warnings, it's actually quite stable.

 

In fact, the only instability point you're likely to encounter with LUI & LTO Flash involves unplugging the device when LUI is connected to it. We added a Disconnect button in the GUI which closes the connection to the device and completely avoids the FTDI driver issue as far as we can tell. It's similar to hitting Eject on external storage (USB drive, SD card) before removing it.

 

Or, you can simply close LUI before unplugging LTO Flash. That also works.

 

That's it.

Edited September 4, 2016 by intvnut

[+DZ-Jay]

And just to be clear: The two main machines used to develop this beast run MacOS X 10.7.5 and 10.8.5. It's been thoroughly tested on both OSes. We've beaten up on it thoroughly, and made sure to keep the software well inside the lines, to avoid making the FTDI driver cranky. Despite the scary warnings, it's actually quite stable.

 

 

That's good to know, but are those only the development machines, or has it also been tested extensively on various installations of Mac OS X 10.8.5 around the beta testing crew?

Edited September 4, 2016 by DZ-Jay

[mr_me]

The links that dzjay provided about FTDI are interesting. According to Wikipedia, FTDI purposely produced an FTDI driver, distributed by Windows update, that detected and soft-bricked devices that had non genuine FTDI chips in them. That malicious driver was said to be Windows only so no risk of it happening on a Mac. That driver was withdrawn after a few weeks, but the warning in their license terms remains. I guess it serves the purpose to discourage device manufacturers from using knock-off FTDI chips and others from buying devices with them. I didn't see anything about FTDI drivers screwing up anybody's computer.

 

And for people who may not be familiar with the System Changer. Unlike the ECS, Intellivoice, and Keyboard Component; the System Changer does not have an Intellivision cartridge slot. So there is nothing to be compatible with; unless someone gets into peripheral emulation.

[intvnut]

According to Wikipedia, FTDI purposely produced an FTDI driver, distributed by Windows update, that detected and soft-bricked devices that had non genuine FTDI chips in them. That malicious driver was said to be Windows only so no risk of it happening on a Mac. That driver was withdrawn after a few weeks, but the warning in their license terms remains. I guess it serves the purpose to discourage device manufacturers from using knock-off FTDI chips and others from buying devices with them. I didn't see anything about FTDI drivers screwing up anybody's computer.

 

Yeah, it was a pretty crappy thing for them to do. It puts the end customers in a lurch, really. I don't really see who comes out ahead in that strategy. There's only varying degrees of losing for everyone involved.

 

In any case, it's irrelevant to both LTO Flash and to Macintosh users, really. Well, other than that I'm much more likely to look at other vendors for my USB peripherals down the road.

 

 

And for people who may not be familiar with the System Changer. Unlike the ECS, Intellivoice, and Keyboard Component; the System Changer does not have an Intellivision cartridge slot. So there is nothing to be compatible with; unless someone gets into peripheral emulation.

 

Yup! I suppose an original Cuttle Cart for 2600 would work, though.

[IntyPod Burgertime]

 

That's not quite true. It's also incompatible with the PlayCable. I guess that makes two peripherals known to be incompatible with it. Sorry.

 

I guess you'll have to find a Cuttle Cart for the System Changer. (Not a Cuttle Cart 3, but rather, the original Cuttle Cart for Atari 2600.) And for the PlayCable... put that sucker on display in your collection museum, you lucky PlayCable owning bastard!

Not what I was trying to ask, but I guess trying to explain what I mean is probably going to make the hole deeper -_-

[intvnut]

Not what I was trying to ask, but I guess trying to explain what I mean is probably going to make the hole deeper -_-

 

I think I know where you may be going with this, since I have suggested more than once that because LTO Flash! works around compatibility issues with the ECS and Intellivision 2, you can set up your system once and leave everything plugged together. That's true at least with the ECS and Intellivoice, and that's what I had in mind. It does not extend to the System Changer or PlayCable. Also, the Keyboard Component and ECS are mutually incompatible—you can't connect both to the same Master Component at once—regardless of whether LTO Flash! is KC compatible.

 

As mr_me pointed out above, the System Changer lets you play Atari 2600 cartridges on the Intellivision, and lacks a place to plug in an Intellivision cartridge. So yes, if you want to use your Intellivision to play both Intellivision games and Atari games via the System Changer, you will need to unplug/replug peripherals.

 

I suppose it would be possible to build a setup that lets you leave the System Changer connected while the ECS, Intellivoice and LTO Flash! (or other Intellivision cartridge) are plugged in—perhaps some sort of Y-cable, some analog switches and a controller circuit. Someone else will have to take on that project.

Edited September 4, 2016 by intvnut

[IntyPod Burgertime]

I'm talking about leaving the physical system changer completely out of it, and doing it in emulation. Basically making the system think the changer is attached, and run Atari roms through a virtual changer.

[Albert]

I need one of these, badly.

[intvnut]

I'm talking about leaving the physical system changer completely out of it, and doing it in emulation. Basically making the system think the changer is attached, and run Atari roms through a virtual changer.

 

Oh, gotcha! Yeah, that would require a bit more hardware than I've put in the shell. :-)

 

I imagine an FPGA VCS emulation might fit on the board with everything else, although it'd be a bit crowded. You'd also need an Intellivision II, or an Intellivision 1 modified to support the System Changer in order to get the video out.

[IntyPod Burgertime]

 

Oh, gotcha! Yeah, that would require a bit more hardware than I've put in the shell. :-)

 

I imagine an FPGA VCS emulation might fit on the board with everything else, although it'd be a bit crowded. You'd also need an Intellivision II, or an Intellivision 1 modified to support the System Changer in order to get the video out.

So in theory, it could be possible to do this on another project with the right design.

 

I just see so much of the stuff other people are saying, and most of it flies over my head. The programming and such. I almost thought that asking this would have been seen as the equivalent of someone asking if their N64 could play NES games out of the box.

 

Had the idea yesterday when wanting to play CGE Adventures on my Intellivision. We need a port of that game.

Edited September 4, 2016 by IntyPod Burgertime

[StarshipUK]

Hey DZ, just stick to the Hive or whatever project you are working on.

 

From my outside perspective this one is done, and actually for sale!

 

Good to know this is finally available to buy after being delayed for a couple of years. Do you have the link\details of where I can buy this please as still not showing on LTO website?

[intvnut]

 

Good to know this is finally available to buy after being delayed for a couple of years. Do you have the link\details of where I can buy this please as still not showing on LTO website?

 

It has a dedicated website: http://ltoflash.leftturnonly.info./

 

I need to add a link from the main Left Turn Only page to point to it. I'll be sending out emails this (long) weekend to everyone who expressed interest, and I'll update the main LTO page too. I'll also start a new thread here on AA, as this one has gotten a bit unwieldy.

 

EDIT: I added a link at the top of the main LTO page to the LTO Flash! page now.

Edited September 4, 2016 by intvnut

[+intvsteve]

 

I think I know where you may be going with this, since I have suggested more than once that because LTO Flash! works around compatibility issues with the ECS and Intellivision 2, you can set up your system once and leave everything plugged together. That's true at least with the ECS and Intellivoice, and that's what I had in mind. It does not extend to the System Changer or PlayCable. Also, the Keyboard Component and ECS are mutually incompatible—you can't connect both to the same Master Component at once—regardless of whether LTO Flash! is KC compatible.

 

As mr_me pointed out above, the System Changer lets you play Atari 2600 cartridges on the Intellivision, and lacks a place to plug in an Intellivision cartridge. So yes, if you want to use your Intellivision to play both Intellivision games and Atari games via the System Changer, you will need to unplug/replug peripherals.

 

I suppose it would be possible to build a setup that lets you leave the System Changer connected while the ECS, Intellivoice and LTO Flash! (or other Intellivision cartridge) are plugged in—perhaps some sort of Y-cable, some analog switches and a controller circuit. Someone else will have to take on that project.

 

A VideoPlexer?

[intvnut]

 

A VideoPlexer?

 

Probably a bit more complicated than the VideoPlexer, as you need to shut down the whole Atari inside the System Changer and block its video and audio output.

 

Of course, what IntyPod Burgertime was suggesting was something different: Emulating the entire System Changer inside the cart, to allow playing Atari games on the Intellivision all from one cart.

 

So in theory, it could be possible to do this on another project with the right design.

 

Yes, although that design requires including an entire Atari in the cartridge along with everything else. Modern FPGAs could swallow up the design probably, but it's not a particularly trivial project.

 

(Maybe if you know the Atari hardware inside out it'd be trivial. But for me, I'd be starting at square 0.)