Homebrew Games like this just piss me off

[+eebuckeye]

Ugh.. phone issues

Edited August 15, 2014 by eebuckeye

[+eebuckeye]

Repeat

[bmulligan]

The old adage, "if you don't have anything nice, then don't say anything at all," seems applicable here. Most of the posters have used it as argument against the OP since he has nothing nice to say about this homebrew game. However, that same argument can be used to support his opinion.

 

The spirit of the original post was that most good homebrew games have a majority of effort in the programming, or design of the game itself regardless of the publishing costs. Publishing costs are the same no matter how good or bad the homebrew software is. So, just because a game costs $50 to produce and you sell it for $70, doesn't mean your game is worth $70 if it sucks. It doesn't even mean it's worth $50 because it cost $50 to produce. Chicken Shoot for the Wii cost $30 when it came out, and it definitely wasn't worth that, right? A re-skin of an old game that was never good in the first place does not add anything to the conversation and is better left unsaid. Let's be honest, the Smurf game for Colecovision had to be, possibly, one of the worst games ever made, period. Re-skinning it, reproducing carts and charging money for it amounts to not much more than a money grab for a little money above the effort for the publishing of the material. Profit which you are absolutely entitled to. But, don't expect to re-program ET with a new hat, call it Indiana Jones, and not get a lot of negative opinions on your "creativity".

 

In 2014, we've come to expect a modicum of quality and innovation in the homebrew community. Original IP's, innovative programming and original titles add value to the library of existing titles and compliment the library of original classic games, not just add to the mediocrity that made up most of the libraries' hundreds of titles. Good, new titles are worth premium prices, the rest belong in a landfill.

[NIAD]

Let's be honest, the Smurf game for Colecovision had to be, possibly, one of the worst games ever made, period.

You make a lot of valid points and I agree with most of what you had to say with the exception of the ColecoVision version of Smurf Rescue being one of the worst games ever made. There are a lot of CV fans, including myself, that truly like and appreciate the Smurf Rescue game and spent many hours of our youth playing thru the game... especially at the higher skill levels. It was one of the first CV games developed, it has very nice graphics and music especially considering it was a launch title and it was and still is geared towards younger children as can be attested to by the fact that both my son and daughter absolutely loved it and played the game numerous times even though they have numerous other gaming options including a PC, 3DS, PSP Vita, PSP, IPad, etc. BTW, the scrolling was indeed poorly done.

 

As far as the originally planned Inty Smurf Rescue by CollectorVision, a lot of the hardcore fans absolutely go crazy over vaporware titles (I have in the case of CV versions of Spectar, Side Track, Chess Challenger, etc,) finally being developed and released for their favorite system(s). It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it was a very faithful translation and more than likely better than what Coleco would have put together back in the day.

 

Seeing as the programmer more than likely had to be paid to redo the graphics from Smurf to Sydney Hunter, I don't have a problem with CollectorVision charging an extra $10 to help defray those costs as well as the box, manual and cart label redo. $60 + $12 S/H from Canada still isn't an absorb asking price considering all that has transpired, but I do prefer the $50 price point on all the other CollectorVision releases especially when they make multiple game releases at the same time seeing as combined shipping expenses are much more bearable.

[Mr SQL]

ET leveraged an accelerator Framework like many homebrews do so development time was greatly reduced - to about 275 hours.

 

In contrast, 1200 hours is what it generally takes the developer working without an accelerator framework to write an Assembly game; in today's dollars ET had a development cost of $18,000 while Defender cost $78,000.

 

But 18k or 78k is still a lot in development costs that's getting completely ignored here when you're talking about a limited production run of 300 copies and not a million or even 10,000!

 

Here's a secret: homebrew developers don't ever make back development costs* - we do it cause it's fun

*Unless they're literally writing a game in two days

 

The point is regardless of weather the developer uses an accelerator framework like BASIC or C, development cost is still considerable and completely out of proportion for a limited production run and thus homebrews are not generally profitable.

 

And you want to talk about innovative programming and original IP it just gets sillier and sillier still:

 

Innovative Assembly games that push the hardware like Boulder Dash and KC Monster Maze literally took thousands of hours to develop - nobody does that today except as a labour of love, it's not about the money:

 

Clocking in at 2000 hours, $130,000 in development is what it cost me to deliver KCMM to the Atari community and I would bet Andrew and Tom spent even more on development for BD.

 

Maybe you should just say "thank you" and stop crying that you want a Pony

 

I want the ROM for free and I want the game for less and I want a Pony, I want a Pony too!

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

Chicken Shoot for the Wii cost $30 when it came out, and it definitely wasn't worth that, right?

Dunno, I kind of enjoyed Chicken shoot for the hilarity that it was. It was like playing drunken redneck Duck Hunt. You obviously can't take a game like that seriously, but I got my money's worth out of it for sure.

 

Which brings me to my next point: Just because the OP disliked a particular game, doesn't mean noone will find some enjoyment out of it. I can't play Megaman series worth crap, but I won't deny they are excellent made games. So when Battle Kid homebrew came out for NES, I did not buy it because I knew attempting playing it would be an excercise in frustration. That did not stop others from getting it and enjoying the crap out of it.

 

So let them produce their game. If it genuinely sucks, then no gamer will want to buy it, only a handful of collectors. The existence of a turd homebrew doesn't sulley the many excellent homebrews out there, only the reputation of the guy who programmed it. Likewise, the existence of original crappy games for a particular console doesn't deter people's enjoyment of the many good games released for it.

[fiddlepaddle]

Oh, boy! My Little Pony for the Intellivision!

 

I can't wait!

[The Usotsuki]

Some people will buy anything, and I mean anything.

 

Not making any judgment call on the quality of the game in question - I do think $72 is a bit obscene though understand why - a dude's gotta recoup his investment

 

I'm a budget gamer, and if I get to the point in development that I'm releasing stuff, I'll sell cheaper, because I choose to.

[slab0meat]

Some people will buy anything, and I mean anything.

 

Not making any judgment call on the quality of the game in question - I do think $72 is a bit obscene though understand why - a dude's gotta recoup his investment

 

I'm a budget gamer, and if I get to the point in development that I'm releasing stuff, I'll sell cheaper, because I choose to.

 

The cost of the game is $60.

[The Usotsuki]

The cost of the game is $60.

 

But it was $72 all-told, right? When I reckon prices, I include taxes, shipping, etc., because THAT price is the one I have to justify to my wallet, not the lower pre-everything price.

[Keatah]

Jeezum Crow....lighten up some of you. It's games! On old consoles! Rejoice! Be happy! Have a Shasta!

 

I prefer Tab and ROMS.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Keatah

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Some people will buy anything, and I mean anything.

Sealed Brick

 

BTW: There would be less homebrews without collectors and probably less fancy packaging on average. But still people who love to code would create there own homebrews.

[Nukey Shay]

Make that a *limited edition* sealed brick for the big monies

[Andromeda Stardust]

Let us also not forget those who buy two copies, one to open and enjoy, and one to shelve. Two copies means more sales to the homebrewers, but less games into the hands of people who want to play them. Part of the problem, or part of the solution?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Only in case of very limited releases. And then you can still sell only one copy per person.

[carlsson]

Perhaps the solution then is to supply the cartridge loose, and an empty, sealed box next to it. You could even put some dead weight inside so it doesn't get so light and flimsy.

[Greg2600]

Good grief, are people still whining about this?

[Andromeda Stardust]

^^Good point about taking the games out of the box. I personally consider them a waste of space, but when I do get a boxed homebrew, I take the cart out and shelve it separately from the box. That way there's less wear and tear on the box and I can pick up and play the game whenever I want.

 

Only game I kept sealed was Princess Rescue, and I have a loose player's copy. I put my sealed CIB in a clear CGA case for protection after I heard about the C&D order. Everyone should have at least one grail in their collection; for me it is the sealed PR.

[CatPix]

Except it's not sealed since you can open and close it back thanks to AA special sticker.

[+DZ-Jay]

Why make games, when you can sell empty boxes. They are sealed, for that authentic feel, of course.

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/229057-boulder-dashr-souvenirs-available/?do=findComment&comment=3059383

[Thomas Jentzsch]

That comes very close. Maybe Andrew and I should start selling empty Boulder Dash boxes too...

 

@Al: Now you know how to make money from all those misprints.

[Andromeda Stardust]

@Al: You presumably never sold out of the 2nd run of Princess Rescue boxes prior to the C&D order from the big N. Assuming the boxes themselves are non-infringing and have not yet been destroyed, you can sell them puppies!

[+DZ-Jay]

james-kirk-captain.jpg

ET leveraged an accelerator Framework like many homebrews do so development time was greatly reduced - to about 275 hours.

 

In contrast, 1200 hours is what it generally takes the developer working without an accelerator framework to write an Assembly game; in today's dollars ET had a development cost of $18,000 while Defender cost $78,000.

 

But 18k or 78k is still a lot in development costs that's getting completely ignored here when you're talking about a limited production run of 300 copies and not a million or even 10,000!

 

Here's a secret: homebrew developers don't ever make back development costs* - we do it cause it's fun

*Unless they're literally writing a game in two days

 

The point is regardless of weather the developer uses an accelerator framework like BASIC or C, development cost is still considerable and completely out of proportion for a limited production run and thus homebrews are not generally profitable.

 

And you want to talk about innovative programming and original IP it just gets sillier and sillier still:

 

Innovative Assembly games that push the hardware like Boulder Dash and KC Monster Maze literally took thousands of hours to develop - nobody does that today except as a labour of love, it's not about the money:

 

Clocking in at 2000 hours, $130,000 in development is what it cost me to deliver KCMM to the Atari community and I would bet Andrew and Tom spent even more on development for BD.

 

Maybe you should just say "thank you" and stop crying that you want a Pony

 

I want the ROM for free and I want the game for less and I want a Pony, I want a Pony too!

 

 

All things being equal, your point would be very a propos, which would add a sharper sting to your closing remarks. However, all things are not equal in this topic: you need to make a distinction between the home-brewer toiling away writing code out of passion, and a publisher who controls the production, publication, and yes, price. More often than not, the two do not coincide.

 

Unless you mean that higher prices result in more money going to the development effort rather than to the shiny collateral or higher margins for producers. I would seriously question that, though.

 

-dZ.

[Mr SQL]

 

All things being equal, your point would be very a propos, which would add a sharper sting to your closing remarks. However, all things are not equal in this topic: you need to make a distinction between the home-brewer toiling away writing code out of passion, and a publisher who controls the production, publication, and yes, price. More often than not, the two do not coincide.

 

Unless you mean that higher prices result in more money going to the development effort rather than to the shiny collateral or higher margins for producers. I would seriously question that, though.

 

-dZ.

Great perspective DZ-Jay!

 

There is a very big distinction there; in the early 80's my Dad saw how little I was getting paid for my games and we started using his Art company Saint John Gallery to sell and market them - there was nearly a 100x increase in profit from controlling production and publication; very educational for me at the time since I had practically been giving my games away for peanuts by comparison!

 

With a game like KCMM I still control all aspects of production and publication; this resulted unfortunately in some hate mails and also dozens of angry posts from a single Junior dev who wrote two-day games wanting to cash in on some of my clout (you have to earn your own clout; spending more than 2 days writing a game is a good start). Among the claims were that the box, available from another vendor, was better than the game (excellent point by TJ to sell an empty box!! ).

 

I've helped put this in perspective by tripling the price of the game for the second run and in the third run the game will be free with just a shipping and handling charge after the buyer first donates "2k monies" to charity The excellent box, is of course still the same price

 

Controlling all aspect of production and using tape media does not offset even hand assembling the package let alone thousands of hours of development; it's not 1984 we're doing this for fun - write a complex asm game today that takes thousands of hours and there's no way you'll ever make back your time investment, it makes no difference if you control production! This is what the angry 2-day developer didn't get - a 2 day game represents a significant return on your investment so it's about the cash regardless of weather someone else markets it or not you're still going to make money, but you can't compare the two models.

[IntellivisionDude]

He had a lot of people reach out to him that they were personally attacked by trolls (his words)? That seems odd to me but he must have quite a community following I guess.

 

The retro gaming community on Youtube is a tight knit group just like the community right here on Atariage. A lot of us stick together and help each other out when ever possible. A lot of the friends i made on Youtube i hang out with on a daily basis on Facebook. If you want to know how to handle trolls ask my good friend OldSchoolRetroGamer a.k.a MaximumRD. That is someone i talk to on here, Facebook and Youtube. We all stick together.

 

I don't know Gamester personally, but he has a huge following. He is everywhere. lol