New pacman for atari 2600

[johncl]

I remember reading an interview with Miamoto on developing Super Mario Brothers. When they were ironing out the physics during development of the game, the sprites hadn't even been created yet and they were basically working to create the game with moving rectangles around on a screen. Only after they got the engine perfected, they started to add spit and polish to the colorful characters and backgrounds that eventually became Super Mario Brothers. Shows you why the game was so successful. Most designers would start out with a main character, then try and decide what kind of world to create and how he/she was to interact with the environment.

 

It's rather common within any games programming even today to use placeholder graphics, as you can almost complete most of the major game logic before thinking about graphics. Ofc the big game projects have already tons of resources allocated to graphics and a lot of it isnt ready before very late in the development cycle so programmers have do work with placeholders for a very long time, even simple 3d primitives in complex 3d games.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Maybe even more common today than for ancient hardware, where you only had a few pixel.

 

I remember very well how much time I spent wondering about the shape of the Thrust ship and how it would look rotated at different angles.

[+darryl1970]

There is no "turning animation".

 

Regarding ghosts vs. monsters, it makes no difference. Just call 'em enemies. I do find it funny that some people claim to know what a "ghost"'s attributes would be, tho. Esp. since this is a video game where common definitions would not apply anyway. If somebody makes a game with opponents that appear to have solid shapes and hide under colored cloaks while roaming maze corridors, and refers to them as ghosts, so what? They still more-or-less fit the common definition when your character eats one and they return to the center. Roaming monsters, returning ghosts.

 

BTW it should be easy to implement the last direction pressed if there's 2 bits of ram available. Just update it when the stick is pressed (during movement). If the character is at rest, use that direction instead of the one used for movement.

 

Correct that there is no turning animation. I believe the reference is concerning the stop-face direction trick. Pac-Man & Ms. would "cut corners" when there were no dots. If one is being chased, turning corners actually gains a little distance from the Monsters. There may have been a perception that the corner was actually cut with the animation direction change, which would give the feel of being a pixel or so closer. Actually, in my experience, Pac-Man is usually not completely in the corridor when doing the the direction trick.

 

As far as the "claiming ghosts attributes", you have it backwards. The arcade machines all refer to the enemies as Monsters. The arcade service manuals refer to the enemies as "monsters". It starts with the fact that they were Monsters first, and the attributes of flesh (in second and third intermission) and not going through walls kind of play into that story in hindsight. It's not making up things to try to justify the changing of the history of the game. It's just a way to preserve the TRUE history of the game, and look at clues as to why it might have been that way in the beginning.

 

I think there was an article shared earlier that mentioned the cartoon. I can totally see where "ghosts" made sense for a child's cartoon. I think "ghost" was originally used by Atari to cover up their crappy, rushed conversion. Later, the cartoon had to find a way to not seem so violent. Eating a ghost's costume is less violent than eating the fleshy monster underneath the sheet. lol.

 

It's just a good way to preserve the true history, which is what I thought Atari Age was about. We share our personal views, but we also appreciate more than just what is on the surface. I don't think anybody should be mocked or belittled for wanting to contribute to that in sharing kind of way.

 

As far as the two bits. I am curious why you say that. I would think reproducing that effect would be a little more complex than how it happened in the arcade, since direction is probably already determined elsewhere in the current code. From my observations, the lack of cutting corners and direction just demonstrates that things are handled differently in this conversion. I am kind of assuming that is because the code has to be much tighter to squeeze everything into this small amount of space. I suppose it would be cool if it were that simple and added. However, as I've said before, I am happy with whatever Dintari816 wants to do going forward. My thought is that there is extra coding in the arcade, which allow the fast corners and direction trick.

 

(BTW. The 8-bit and 5200 version of Ms. Pac-Man was one of the few to add the corner cutting trick. However, they over-emphasized the dot slow down.)

[Trebor]

On a scale of 1-10, how irate or annoyed would some of you be if DINTARI816 calls them just "ghosts" in this version?

Cart label refers to them as ghosts, the manual, possible box, etc., refers to them as ghosts - And ghosts only - Not even a hint of monster(s).

 

Would that register as a 10, or would it be more a 7,8?

 

J/K...

 

I completely get your vibe though. I am/was very much the same for the smallest of details and 'facts' when the Donkey Kong re-make was being developed for the 7800. All those little things matter, when you're that passionate about a game you have such a personal and vested interest.

 

I'm actually very interested and glad all these little tidbits about the history and the change of naming from monsters to ghosts is being discussed. I think the details are what makes stuff like this even more cool and exciting. /Geek mode off.

 

I still refer to them as "ghost-monsters" though

[+darryl1970]

On a scale of 1-10, how irate or annoyed would some of you be if DINTARI816 calls them just "ghosts" in this version?

Cart label refers to them as ghosts, the manual, possible box, etc., refers to them as ghosts - And ghosts only - Not even a hint of monster(s).

 

Would that register as a 10, or would it be more a 7,8?

 

J/K...

 

I completely get your vibe though. I am/was very much the same for the smallest of details and 'facts' when the Donkey Kong re-make was being developed for the 7800. All those little things matter, when you're that passionate about a game you have such a personal and vested interested in.

 

I'm actually very interested and glad all these little tidbits about the history and changing of naming from monsters to ghosts is being discussed. I think the details are what makes stuff like this even more cool and exciting. /Geek mode off.

 

I still refer to them as "ghost-monsters" though

 

LOL. That's funny. I could probably justify it in my psychotic mind that it is okay, since it's a 2600 conversion. That would suppress my OCD..

 

You just reminded me of another on that I find along a similar line!!!!

 

People used to refer to the "purse" as a "telephone" in Donkey Kong! Even the Pac-Man Fever song, "Do the Donkey Kong" says, "you can pick up the umbrella, you can answer the phone..." LOL. It wasn't ever named a "purse", but it fits the story.. lol. Why would Mario (Jumpan at the time, since we didn't yet know his name) answer a phone on his way to rescue Pauline? lol.

 

AND how did the Atari conversion end up with a birthday cake?? LMAO.. That is one of the funniest. I have to give the programmer MAD PROPS. He admits to not liking the game Donkey Kong, but he made one of the best conversions of the day. That's a work ethic. A birthday cake though? HAHA!

 

Anyway... Calling them monsters is like calling the purse a phone. It just doesn't make sense on one level, but they are dressed similarly to a ghost (if they are wearing sheets).. lol.

 

"Ghost-monsters" are better than ghosts. It shows you're old school and you're in touch with the true history!

[raindog]

As far as the "claiming ghosts attributes", you have it backwards. The arcade machines all refer to the enemies as Monsters.

 

On a scale of 1-10, how irate or annoyed would some of you be if DINTARI816 calls them just "ghosts" in this version?

Yeah, well, emacs on Ubuntu is way, way better than vi on the Mac.

 

Jesus, guys, please let it go. I'm tired of 20 new messages about the most trivial details every morning, but don't want to unsubscribe because DINTAR's actual work is so great.

[Trebor]

Why would Mario (Jumpan at the time, since we didn't yet know his name)

 

And you uncovered my 'hot button'. Drawing a parallel, Monsters = Jumpman / Ghosts = Mario.

 

In Arcade Donkey Kong the protagonist is Jumpman there is no Mario (yet). Hate when they refer to him as Mario.

 

Like I stated, I completely get your vibe...LOL.

[+darryl1970]

 

 

 

Yeah, well, emacs on Ubuntu is way, way better than vi on the Mac.

 

Jesus, guys, please let it go. I'm tired of 20 new messages about the most trivial details every morning, but don't want to unsubscribe because DINTAR's actual work is so great.

I am guilty, as I can easily get drawn back into this conversation, but I agree that I do not want to take away from Dintari's project! If the ghost/monster topic is continued, it should go here:

 

Ghosts Vs. Monsters!

[NE146]

lol that happens in any thread.. we veer off yapping about other tangent crap.Then it meanders back to the main topic. But hey, what can you say.. we like games!

[+nanochess]

I'm amazed by the number of posts getting here daily!

 

The most interesting thing is that the game is so awesome that some people wants every detail from the arcade and even get picky about the little details (the kind of "I don't like this game if it doesn't support this obscure trick!")

 

Obviously impossible because the arcade has a different aspect ratio, the sprites have a different size, probably even the frame rate is different, etc.

 

With bugs or no bugs, with details or not, this is the best ever Pac-Man done for Atari VCS, so thanks DINTAR816 for all your effort

 

Looking forward to see further developments!

[The Usotsuki]

For the record, and I don't know how accurate this is, but Japanese Wikipedia refers to the "ghosts" as モンスター - an attempted transliteration of monster.

 

I've never seen them, outside here, called anything but ghosts, but generally saw them as just creatures with sheet ghost costumes.

[NE146]

I'm amazed by the number of posts getting here daily!

 

The most interesting thing is that the game is so awesome that some people wants every detail from the arcade and even get picky about the little details (the kind of "I don't like this game if it doesn't support this obscure trick!")

 

 

Exactly.. it's a testament to the strength of this port that people are even bringing in arcade details to the conversation.

 

However I just want to clarify.. I think this port is 100% awesome as it stands today.. never did I say I 'wanted' any of the arcade tricks in it (whether it's patterns, direction-facing, or whatever).. we just were talking about those things in passing. Not requesting them. I mean come on, this is a VCS port. But again, that just shows how blown away we are by this.

[+nanochess]

Exactly.. it's a testament to the strength of this port that people are even bringing in arcade details to the conversation.

 

However I just want to clarify.. I think this port is 100% awesome as it stands today.. never did I say I 'wanted' any of the arcade tricks in it (whether it's patterns, direction-facing, or whatever).. we just were talking about those things in passing. Not requesting them. I mean come on, this is a VCS port. But again, that just shows how blown away we are by this.

 

Haha, I can understand you. I also feel the temptation to say "C'mon, I want to see the title screen from Pac-Man arcade"

[+save2600]

While it's true the arcade refers to them as Monsters, I've always thought they turned to ghosts AFTER you "ate" them, only to remateriize as monsters again out of the pen. Probably how most of us thought of the transformation since its inception.

 

When it came to the sheet tearing/skin exposed intermission, just figured somebody was being cute with the humor.

 

Never really over-thought any of this it until now.

[lapetino]

I know some people at NAMCO Entertainment through my work at the Museum of Video Game Art. I should ask what their take on this monsters vs. ghosts issue is!

Oh, and BTW, this game is wonderful! I didn't think anyone would go beyond Dennis' Pac-Man 4K. Great work!

[+darryl1970]

I know some people at NAMCO Entertainment through my work at the Museum of Video Game Art. I should ask what their take on this monsters vs. ghosts issue is!

 

Oh, and BTW, this game is wonderful! I didn't think anyone would go beyond Dennis' Pac-Man 4K. Great work!

 

One would think that a museum would have an accurate take on the history of a game. There's an article earlier in this thread that show the change over time. (Although I have seen Super Pac-Man bezels still using the term "Monsters", leaving Atari's Pac-Mania as the odd ball arcade game). Anyway, the generation that cared is probably long gone. Pac-Man is now just a mascot, and ghosts have become popular. It'd be interesting though.

 

As far as all of the 2600 ports though, I get a little confused. I believe I know which 4k version you are referencing. It had a slightly different aspect to the maze, monsters just appeared in the box when eaten, and they didn't come out until the energizer wore off. Is that the Dennis 4k?

 

EDIT:

--Got my answer from 1st thread ---

 

But, what does "no undocumented opcode" mean?

This is a total rewrite from your previous versions, Dintari? Your previous versions (not to be confused with Dennis's) had different revisions with various monster eye graphics, right?

Edited October 14, 2014 by darryl1970

[iesposta]

Game suggestions:

Atari 2600 has always been about great GAME PLAY.

Why would you prefer intermissions with sound and music, when there are obvious FACTS for GAME PLAY improvement?

 

As mentioned for game play:

-- Turning corners. Pac Man = faster cornering. Monsters = slower cornering.

-- Eating dots = slower. Not eating dots = faster (is this fact implemented?)

-- Energizer time varies. Short time. Medium time. Long time. No time, they just reverse. (Currently it just gets shorter and shorter per level.)

-- ??

 

What do you think? You would want to leave those details out for Intermissions?

 

Not game play:

-- Intermissions with sound and animation. (As suggested, if there are bytes left, just the tune could be played.)

-- Points shown for eating "fruit".

-- Single, double, triple level icons at bottom (or change in brightness value for 2nd, 3rd level.)

-- Direction facing after coming to a stop.

 

This version has drawn so much attention BECAUSE it is closer to the Arcade version.

Excellent work even if nothing more gets changed!!

[lapetino]

 

One would think that a museum would have an accurate take on the history of a game. There's an article earlier in this thread that show the change over time. (Although I have seen Super Pac-Man bezels still using the term "Monsters", leaving Atari's Pac-Mania as the odd ball arcade game). Anyway, the generation that cared is probably long gone. Pac-Man is now just a mascot, and ghosts have become popular. It'd be interesting though.

 

Well, I am the Exec Director of the soon-to-launch museum. We're focused on the art, design, illustration, and industrial design of classic video games. The evolution of the in-game character has been well-documented, but all of this is more about the marketing and the character evolution beyond the screen. I will go right to the source on this one, and see what Namco folks say.

[Trebor]

Well, I am the Exec Director of the soon-to-launch museum. We're focused on the art, design, illustration, and industrial design of classic video games. The evolution of the in-game character has been well-documented, but all of this is more about the marketing and the character evolution beyond the screen. I will go right to the source on this one, and see what Namco folks say.

Considering their current marketing... http://www.bandainamcogames.com/game/pac-man.html

 

"Namco's world famous arcade game, PAC-MAN®, returns! Remember all the hours spent munching on the dots? Relive this classic! Chomp a Power Pellet to momentarily turn the ghosts blue."

 

...they're pretty much going to stick with "ghosts". Regardless, unless there's a type of Orwellian-like revisit of history - the original is "monster(s)".

 

Even if I personally still call them "ghosts monsters".

 

 

Game suggestions:

Atari 2600 has always been about great GAME PLAY.

Why would you prefer intermissions with sound and music, when there are obvious FACTS for GAME PLAY improvement?

 

As mentioned for game play:

-- Turning corners. Pac Man = faster cornering. Monsters = slower cornering.

-- Eating dots = slower. Not eating dots = faster (is this fact implemented?)

-- Energizer time varies. Short time. Medium time. Long time. No time, they just reverse. (Currently it just gets shorter and shorter per level.)

-- ??

 

What do you think? You would want to leave those details out for Intermissions?

 

Not game play:

-- Intermissions with sound and animation. (As suggested, if there are bytes left, just the tune could be played.)

-- Points shown for eating "fruit".

-- Single, double, triple level icons at bottom (or change in brightness value for 2nd, 3rd level.)

-- Direction facing after coming to a stop.

 

This version has drawn so much attention BECAUSE it is closer to the Arcade version.

Excellent work even if nothing more gets changed!!

 

Great points. Perhaps the 4K version is the balance between including all the gameplay nuisances and some intermission details, whereas the larger 6-8K version will nail everything as close as perfect for the VCS.

[BrianC]

As far as arcade nuances go, this version already has the safe spot. A lot of neat stuff packed into 4k.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Correct that there is no turning animation. I believe the reference is concerning the stop-face direction trick. Pac-Man & Ms. would "cut corners" when there were no dots. If one is being chased, turning corners actually gains a little distance from the Monsters. There may have been a perception that the corner was actually cut with the animation direction change, which would give the feel of being a pixel or so closer. Actually, in my experience, Pac-Man is usually not completely in the corridor when doing the the direction trick.

You've got a valid point here. If blinky is say one or two pixels away from eating Pacman and gaining, especially in "Cruise Elroy" mode, and Pacman waits until he's at the gate to make the right angle, the bounding box for Pacman will stop it's forward momentum as he turns sideways, yet the ghost's bounding box will continue to move. This results in a collision between the corner of Pacman's bounding box and the ghosts bounding box, resulting in death every time. The arcade creators probably padded a few pixels of leeway so that Pacman warps forward just far enough when rounding a corner, to prevent such collision. I don't know what the exact arcade value is, but I think 4 pixels (half a tile in the arcade) would do it. Obviously less if it were implemented in VCS port because the pixels are chunkier and wide aspect ratio.

[johncl]

You've got a valid point here. If blinky is say one or two pixels away from eating Pacman and gaining, especially in "Cruise Elroy" mode, and Pacman waits until he's at the gate to make the right angle, the bounding box for Pacman will stop it's forward momentum as he turns sideways, yet the ghost's bounding box will continue to move. This results in a collision between the corner of Pacman's bounding box and the ghosts bounding box, resulting in death every time. The arcade creators probably padded a few pixels of leeway so that Pacman warps forward just far enough when rounding a corner, to prevent such collision. I don't know what the exact arcade value is, but I think 4 pixels (half a tile in the arcade) would do it. Obviously less if it were implemented in VCS port because the pixels are chunkier and wide aspect ratio.

 

Read the Pacman Dossier web page, it really details how the arcade was coded. There is no "bounding box", Pacman and the ghosts are in one tile at a time and they move at an offset from this tile. The "bounding box" is the tile and that is used for the collision test. Furthermore pacman can corner turns meaning he moves diagonally for either 3 or 4 pixels depending on which direction he corners from, hence the ability to reach a tile faster than if he had to move all the way into a full char position before turning. Cornering is essential for any seasoned pacman player to gain a distance from the ghosts and indeed to follow any of the known patterns for maximum score.

 

The definitive proof of this tile positioning is that pacman can in fact move straight through a ghost as the collision test is done after both pacman and the ghosts have moved, and thus enables pacman and a ghosts tile position to just miss each other at the right spot. Check out some youtube videoes of this demonstrated - although its very vell detailed in the Pacman Dossier.

[+darryl1970]

 

Read the Pacman Dossier web page, it really details how the arcade was coded. There is no "bounding box", Pacman and the ghosts are in one tile at a time and they move at an offset from this tile. The "bounding box" is the tile and that is used for the collision test. Furthermore pacman can corner turns meaning he moves diagonally for either 3 or 4 pixels depending on which direction he corners from, hence the ability to reach a tile faster than if he had to move all the way into a full char position before turning. Cornering is essential for any seasoned pacman player to gain a distance from the ghosts and indeed to follow any of the known patterns for maximum score.

 

The definitive proof of this tile positioning is that pacman can in fact move straight through a ghost as the collision test is done after both pacman and the ghosts have moved, and thus enables pacman and a ghosts tile position to just miss each other at the right spot. Check out some youtube videoes of this demonstrated - although its very vell detailed in the Pacman Dossier.

I recall that article on the Pac-Man and Monster programming. It's pretty cool. Growing up, I knew the monsters had a different "personality", but it would have been cool to know the specific math and logic behind them. Somebody even mentioned "Cruisey Elroy" mode. I haven't heard that for a LONG time. Another name I wonder where it came from! It would be interesting to hear how this port handles things like collision. I just assumed it was more of a bounding box on this 2600 port. As far as Monster logic, this port has a really good feel. They don't seem too aggressive, and they don't seem too random. Great port.

 

I am guessing that directional control and Pac-Man/Monster collision are handled slightly different from the arcade, else the corner cutting, direction face trick, and other things would come inherently. Even if Dintari WANTED to make these changes, it would be recreating the effect on top of a different method (instead of being inherit in the main control). This would add a lot of extra coding (a lot in the sense that there aren't a lot of bytes left), and it would be like a band aid layer to make it happen. That can cause other complications. If he wants to do it, it's simpler than my assumption, and it's not as invasive as that, then great. However, I think the game is at a real sweet spot now as it is. One of the cool things about a GOOD 2600 game (or even other systems) is when it's different, but still captures that "feel".

 

I think he's done that here!

[Brian O]

I think you guys scared DINTAR816 away

[DINTAR816]

Hi, these days I have been testing the "flicker variable" in the 8K version, so I had not updated the 4k version as fast as it should.

 

 

But, what does "no undocumented opcode" mean?

This is a total rewrite from your previous versions, Dintari? Your previous versions (not to be confused with Dennis's) had different revisions with various monster eye graphics, right?

Some programmers use "undocumented opcodes" but I do not like to use them because in some emulators do not work well, and do not know if it works on all versions of hardware.

About the eyes, I changed it because some mentioned that they seemed very small, but I prefer how it was before because it distinguishes better when they look up and down. I do not know if the majority thinks I should leave it as it was before.

-- Turning corners. Pac Man = faster cornering. Monsters = slower cornering.

 

Not implemented exactly as is, but pacman is moving at full speed (60 fps) when crossing a corner, although it is very difficult to notice. You can check this when blinky is in "cruise elroy 1" because at that time it moves as fast as pacman, and when turning corners, pacman can move away from blinky. Of course I'm going to implement this as it should be in the 8k version.

 

-- Eating dots = slower. Not eating dots = faster (is this fact implemented?)

 

That is implemented. When pacman is "eating a dot" in a frame does not move.

 

-- Energizer time varies. Short time. Medium time. Long time. No time, they just reverse. (Currently it just gets shorter and shorter per level.)

 

The times are similar to the arcade, only the first 9 levels have a second more, the following levels are equal to the original, exept that the levels do not have the time with 0.5 seconds left. This means that from level 19, the "energizer timer" always will have 0.5 seconds and not 0 as the original, so I did this from the beginning to make the game easier.

Although perhaps could change it and leave it as the arcade.

-- Intermissions with sound and animation. (As suggested, if there are bytes left, just the tune could be played.)

It might make some minor changes to improve this, but without increasing many bytes.

-- Points shown for eating "fruit".

 

I do not know if I can do it in this version, but that is done in the 8k version.

 

-- Single, double, triple level icons at bottom (or change in brightness value for 2nd, 3rd level.)

 

Single - double level icons, could do it, I do not think many bytes are needed for that.