mr-atari Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi Guys, Perhaps somebody knows. I am testing a 1450 XLD at the moment. System is not TONG, but the 1450-board with PDD-daughterboard. It was bought from B&C computers back in the 90's. I get to this screen, inserting a disk does nothing. RETURN will boot from SIO, T: and V: drivers are installed. I tested the drive-IO and it seems to work, index is pulsing, the PDD controls MOTOR_B and it spins on command. But inserting a disk does not clear "disk-change ready on pin34" Anyhow, help? Grtz, Sijmen. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 And when you boot from SIO (by pressing return) you can not boot from an external diskdrive due to Drive # conflict or does this work? Are the XLD drives also SIO or do these operate through PBI? Just wondering if you could boot a dos from an external diskdrive and try to format a disk in the internal drive. Doesn't work a thing or is there an ERROR on the screen when you try to boot from the internal drive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 What kind of drive do you have? I seem to remember that some drives have the 'Disk Change' function and some do not. Has this ever worked? Ready can be unasserted and the seek/restore commands will still function, but read/write commands will not proceed. Some drives will not come Ready when you insert a disk - the OS has to issue commands to make the drive ready. This prevents the user from changing disks without alerting the OS that a new disk is in the drive. Usually there is a jumper that disables 'Disk Change' on the drive. You may need to do that. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) I did a lot of stuff yesterday and this morning, but still no result. ProWizzard: I can boot standard SIO to MyDOS or any other software. When I switch off D1: and try to send DIR (status) D1-D8, I get error -160. When I enter a D: in the handler table with PBI-entry, nothing happens. I see in PARDEV that devices %10000000 and %00000010 are installed, I assume V: and T: bob1200xl: I just disassembled a XF551 and used that mechanism, same result (no boot over PDD). Then I put the EPSON SD-521 in the XF551 enclosure. That boots over SIO just fine, so the EPSON-drive is okay. This leaves me to interrogate the PDD-interface....... When I disconnect the PDD, the system just boots normally as if it is a 1400XL. No bootscreen, just normal. I noticed the VOICE when you enter selftest has a lower pitch then on the 1400 and it does not say the model number "1450" as it does on the "1400" There are some handwritten notes, I attach them. And some pics of the PDD. The buscontroller had fallen out of it's socket, so it's in a separate picture. Perhaps somebody recognizes the handwriting or signature? The mainboard has a BLUE sticker with 00 on it. I dumped all ROMs, checked them here and at Curt, they are okay. I have equipment around for testing, but no knowledge of this wire-wrap board. Suggestions? Grtz, Sijmen. Edited January 14, 2015 by mr-atari 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caterpiggle Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 WOW ! You has been blow my mind away ! Okay , okay and ok. So the blue card is bread-bean card ? Is the original made by the Officially Atari ? Yes , I can see that it is daughter card onto 1450XLD motherboard. So you know this person on the signature ? Can you tell me exactly what year & month if it possible for you to remember when you purchased it from B & C ? Most of all, how much did you paid for it from B & C again ? Let me say once again , HOLY COW ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 The system is not mine, unfortunately.... It is borrowed from 2 brothers who have bought it during their tour through silicon valley back in the 90's. Price is unknown to me. I attached some more info. Rom's, picture of the casing and the wire-wrap (......) 1450-PDD.zip 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, the first thing that I see is the drive connector 'SA400'. That is an early Shugart 5.25 drive that has no Ready line at all. You might try using an SA400 instead of a newer drive... (I'm kidding - where would you get one?) The problem may be that this controller board uses some non-standard method to sense drive 'Ready', which does not work on newer drives. PARDEV? Is that $247? I would guess that the FDD controller will only set that bit when you insert a disk in the drive at the prompt. (and the controller sees the disk as ready) Or, it could be as simple as the Drive Select lines. Scope them while you have that 'insert disk' screen up to see which drive is being selected, if any. Who knows what they used the last time they ran this? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup8pdct Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 There is an empty chip socket. Did you remove what was in there? James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caterpiggle Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Hello Mr. Atari, Is not possible for me to using any Prototype 1450XLD in any rom's into my Altirra emulator ? Expect historic archives only or further study depth of those rom files ? Yes, it is very nice to have them but can't using it on any Atari emulators .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Hi Bob, (To others, yes I have re-seated the 87p50 micro-controller with piggy-bag 2732) I have the impression there is a problem with the 87p50 micro-controller. Perhaps it dead on my yesterday afternoon..... The drive had 3 ways of noticeable bootup before this point. All during the screen that waits for a disk. 1/ drive spins short, then longer and stops. 2/ drive spins periodical short continuously. 3/ drive spins continuously. To me #1 looks like the most correct way of starting-up. So I powered down and re-seated this 87p50. Now when I boot-up it does #3 above, always. The 87p50 stays cold. Yes, register $247, I found that %1000000 is V: and %0000010 is T: What is the bit for PDD? So I can try some commands using my freezer_2005. Something else: on the 1450MB chip U8 (74LS10) had pin 10 bend-up. Resulting in V: being not installed, I removed it and installed a fresh 74LS10. This installs both V: and T: drivers at $E48F Not sure if this bend-up pin is needed to start the PDD-board? I change it during the day, so both versions do not start the PDD, only the V: Do you have an 1450xld? Both select-lines (pin 12,14) stay low. Pin 16, motorB is the the one that turns off the motor (yesterday), not pin10 motorA. Now pin 16 stays low, motor on constantly. Pin 8 is pulsing (index) Other tips how to check? I have a scoop to check signals to/from 87p50 Are the schematics anywhere for this proto-board? Let me know, Sijmen. Well, the first thing that I see is the drive connector 'SA400'. That is an early Shugart 5.25 drive that has no Ready line at all. You might try using an SA400 instead of a newer drive... (I'm kidding - where would you get one?) The problem may be that this controller board uses some non-standard method to sense drive 'Ready', which does not work on newer drives. PARDEV? Is that $247? I would guess that the FDD controller will only set that bit when you insert a disk in the drive at the prompt. (and the controller sees the disk as ready) Or, it could be as simple as the Drive Select lines. Scope them while you have that 'insert disk' screen up to see which drive is being selected, if any. Who knows what they used the last time they ran this? Bob Edited January 15, 2015 by mr-atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Short update, The ON/Off switch on the PDD-board powers the 87p50 That is flaky/defective..... So back to square one. Power-on: - drive spins short. -screen -drive spins constantly When i press RETURN it tries to boot from SIO, drive stops after some time. I'm so close...... Edited January 15, 2015 by mr-atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Hell yeah! I connected my XF551-mechanics and it boots now. Wondering what is wrong with the original EPSON SD-521..... Stupid ON/Off-switch..... Now, next is to run RWTEST..... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Sijmen, is that a 10.000 MHZ oscillator on that board? hard to see those numbers clearly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Sijmen, is that a 10.000 MHZ oscillator on that board? hard to see those numbers clearly I had to flip the PCB for this. Yes, 10.000 Mhz. Now the drive is lost again, no IO anymore. Screen stays if I want to boot a disk. Extremely flaky or there is a bad contact somewhere.... I tried to format a disk when it did work, but no success. Loading DOS or a game did work. You insert a disk, close the door and it boots. Register $247 showed $83, so the PDD uses PBI-device #1 But not anymore. Back to square 1...... How to get to square 2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Yes - sounds like a bad contact somewhere. What are you trying to accomplish? A wire-wrap board like that is not useful if you want a usable system. It may work for a while and it may not, which is what you seem to be experiencing now. I don't have an FDD board for a 1450. Don't know of any schematics. I do have a TONG board. I would like to see how the drive is mounted in the 1450XLD. Can you take a few pictures? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I had to flip the PCB for this. Yes, 10.000 Mhz. Now the drive is lost again, no IO anymore. Thank you and sorry that happened after looking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Are the schematics anywhere for this proto-board? I don't have an FDD board for a 1450. Don't know of any schematics. I do have a TONG board. This is the first time I've seen this proto-board... One of these nights when I have a few extra hours of spare time, I'll have to draw up the schematics to this and later on see about building one myself. I'd love to have a working PDD board to add to my 1450XL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) There seems to be a problem with the 34p cable from MB to PDD. When I fold it, it works, relax it doesn't. Standard floppy-cable, I must have some at my attic. But still running my XF551-mechanic not the EPSON-drive. I found that I can toggle the PDD on/off to access SIO D1-D4 by toggling bit0 of $247 I make some pictures later today/weekend, Bob. To accomplish: nothing, just having fun for a friend who owns the system. He has a 1090 too that needs testing And the trill of having a 1450XLD at home....for now....always wanted one. I saw one when I was 16 or 17 on a electronics show back in the 80's Large ATARI stand, StarRaiders running in the middle..... Called Firato in Amsterdam (Netherlands) Also a list of materials and some good photo's of the wire-wrap for you all. The wires are color-coded for DATA, ADDRESS, POWER, LOGIC. Later! Sijmen. Edited January 16, 2015 by mr-atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Does somebody have SALT-software to check either the 1450/1400 or the parallel drives? Other diagnostic-software is welcome too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The 1400/1450 SALT is here on ROM: http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/XL/1400xl/1400.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sijmen, hate to ask, but can you tell us what the part number is for U12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 (edited) 74LS32, You need the resistor-values on H1/H2 I guess too :-) I make a list later this weekend. The PDD now seems stable. I changed the IO-cable from MB-to-PDD and use the XF551-mechanics. Current testing: I can boot from PDD with my XF551-mechanics, very stable. When I toggle bit0-$247: SIO D1-D4 are access-able again. (This does not work when I first booted from SIO, you need to boot from PDD first). When I switch the mechanics to EPSON, type DOS: The drive spins and continuously seeks for the correct sector and never finds it. (hot-) Swapping back to the other drive and that one works. Hmmmm. So I can need a bit of help here on the EPSON SD-521 Strangest is , when I put the EPSON in my XF551-enclosure, the drive runs just fine. RWTEST on the PDD: 411 B/s write and 1170 B/s read, that is a bit disappointing. But is seems when I boot and load DOS, that takes less time then from my 1050. Lets measure that later. Are you planning to rebuild the PDD-board? [edit] Just tested the XF551 with Epson-drive: 383 B/s write & 1081 B/s read. Edited January 17, 2015 by mr-atari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sometimes, the sector skew determines the R/W speed. If you access sectors sequentially, you spend all your time waiting for the drive to rotate to the next sector - doesn't matter how fast you transfer the sector data. Can you format a disk with a skew of 1, or 2? (a USD drive will do that) The SD-521 does what? Is it seeking back to Track 0 or is it seeking in to track 39? Again, the SD-521 may have jumpers that configure how the drive interface presents status/data. You can seek if the drive is not Ready, but you can't Read or Write/Format. Did you format a disk using the SD-512 in the XF551? If you turn off the device bit in $247, the OS will not even sample the PBI for a device. So, once you have initialized a device and added it to $247, turning off its bit in 247 makes it disappear. The opposite does not work in most cases. When you boot the system from the FDD, the PBI code for each device runs an init routine that, for one, sets its bit in $247. Whatever else the init routine does will determine whether you can just set a bit in $247 to enable the device. Setting its bit in $247 after booting from D1: will not run the init routine in the FDD PBI code - may work, may not. I would expect that you could toggle D1: if you boot from the PBI drive. Then, $247 could probably be used as a device selector. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr-atari Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 (edited) Hi Bob, Pictures of the drive-mounting are attached. I formatted a disk in the EPSON (XF551-enclosure) and that works. With DOS2.5 and then wrote DOS to it. No errors, disk is bootable. Then I booted this disk in the PDD-XF551-mechanics, works too. Hot-unplug/plug to the SD-521 and tried to DIR or load DOS. Still with the disk formatted in the SD-521. The heads move from track-0 to the middle about 14 times then stops. Errors -144 I see 2 jumper packs on the drive. One with 5 jumpers (Mx and DS0-DS3) to select drive, 1 jumper is on DS0. Second is near the LED, 2 positions, position 1 has a jumper. I'm a total noob when it comes to jumpers on 360k-drives, viva las vegas is my style here. But please advise. How do you change the SKEW? MyDOS boots but can't format, SD or DD nothing happens, Enhanced it tries to format but errors with -138. After that, the disk is clean/formatted, but nothing written to sectors 1-3 and DIR. I tried to configure to 40 tracks/1or2side/1step/SDorDD, no success H1: 4k7 on 1 and 7 150 on 3,4,5 and 8 H2: 1k on 1 1N914 on 3 (-|<-) 0.22u on 5 Grtz, Sijmen. [edit] forgot to mention, loading DOS 2.5: XF551 6 seconds. PDD also 6 seconds. Sometimes, the sector skew determines the R/W speed. If you access sectors sequentially, you spend all your time waiting for the drive to rotate to the next sector - doesn't matter how fast you transfer the sector data. Can you format a disk with a skew of 1, or 2? (a USD drive will do that) The SD-521 does what? Is it seeking back to Track 0 or is it seeking in to track 39? Again, the SD-521 may have jumpers that configure how the drive interface presents status/data. You can seek if the drive is not Ready, but you can't Read or Write/Format. Did you format a disk using the SD-512 in the XF551? Edited January 18, 2015 by mr-atari 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Larry Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Hi Sijmen- Really nice! Wanted one so bad when they were first announced, but not to be! Sometime while you have that 1450, could you measure the length, width, & height and post it? Thanks, Larry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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