+CyranoJ Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Really? Awesome that you know how Scatologic got around the bug. Can you demonstrate this fix with the Doom source code? That would be fantastic to see! As for the first statement being a bunch of 'bullshit' this is why we need fair and equal time. We really should get LeGrand in here. When did you turn into Gorf, using disjointed 'well if you say this, then prove it with that' sentences? Why don't you prove that it actually does by, I don't know, show us some proof? Tell Gorf I said hi. Edited March 7, 2015 by CyranoJ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 When did you turn into Gorf, using disjointed 'well if you say this, then prove it with that' sentences? Why don't you prove that it actually does by, I don't know, show us some proof? Tell Gorf I said hi. You get so emotional about all this. Especially when Battlesphere or Scatologic is mentioned. All your replies seem so charged with it. And I guess part of the problem I have is I react to it. The mistake is mine. I should have asked you to clarify what you meant when you disagreed so strongly with Scatologics claims. The assumption I should not have made was which cpus did or did not do what. I wish there was more cooperation in this community rather than so much apparent animosity and jealousy. It's a shame. This is just a hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 And Gorf has not talked to me in a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 And Gorf has not talked to me in a long time. Those are clearly not your words. Cut this shit out, it's time to just end this. The phrases you have been using recently are clearly sock puppet sentences fed to you by others. The challenge above is typical Gorf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Those are clearly not your words. Cut this shit out, it's time to just end this. The phrases you have been using recently are clearly sock puppet sentences fed to you by others. The challenge above is typical Gorf. No CJ. All me. Gorf gets no blame for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Sticking with the theme, but rather than restarting from scratch..What If...Atari HAD stuck it out a bit longer? Lets say Skyhammer had been commercially realeased, Freelancer, Black Ice, Legions Of The Undead, Dact.Joust etc been finished and released, Beyond Games had done AVP 2 and it made use of the VR Headset (systems 1st Killer App ?), basically Atari sorted it's shit out enough to turn the tide, even to a small degree where Jaguar was now cheap enough to warrant a purchase as a 2nd or 3rd machine and had enough quality, only on Jaguar games to justify a purchase.Would it still be seen in the same light?. Keep in mind the console sold through approximately 125,000 units from launch in 1993 to the end of 1995. There's nothing releases of that software would have helped by then. The Jaguar's fortunes would have had to have taken a dramatic turn in the first year, so software like you mentioned would have been needed by early 1994 and be spectacular enough to move lots and lots of units. Any add-on, CD, VR, or otherwise would still be doomed to failure without an install base well into the millions, so none of that or software for that could really boost sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 3. I never saw the problem with the 64 bit campaign. "64 bit" was the only way to say 5th generation and more advanced hardware than SNES or Genesis. Both claims, by the way, were categorically true. I'm the first to admit that the Jaguar was the 2nd worst 5th gen console but a 5th gen console it undoubtedly was. The 64-bit marketing campaign is a problem when you don't have the talent first, second, or third party to make games that clearly demonstrate said stated power. If you don't, like the the Jaguar didn't, then you don't try to market based on the unbelievable power of your system. It just makes it a joke, which it did. That's why several of us have said that one of the many things Atari could have done differently was drop that particular marketing angle when it was clear that it was doing the platform no favors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 No CJ. All me. Gorf gets no blame for this. Well, that's even more sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Havoc 2049 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) Swiftly back on topic: @Eyemsougly-Yep i've always found it odd that Rebellion take so much 'crap' for C.Flag II (ok, it's an horrendous game in places, but they were a small team, limited resources) yet by comparison both Time warner and SEGA get away with not only a poor version of Virtua Racing after proving what could be done on MD SVP and 32X, but also rushing the 1st version of Daytona USA to Saturn, then whilst making technical amends with C.E, loosing something in the process, plus was'nt Touring Car said to be awful as well on Saturn? (Racers are'nt my thing).Basically Jaguar was'nt only platform to suffer from dissapointing racers that people expected far more from, it seems to escape simply due to fact Sega Rally was so superb. Jag CF gets flak because it's a crap game, especially compared to the great Lynx version of CF. The control in Jag CF is beyond horrible, to the point where the game is basically unplayable. A big time let down to fans of Checkered Flag on the Lynx. Not sure where you are getting your Virtua Racing info, but most people consider the Saturn version of Virtua Racing to be the best version of the game. I own both the Genesis and Saturn versions of Virtua Racing and the Genesis version is pretty craptastic, while the Saturn version is amazing. Edited March 8, 2015 by Major Havoc 2049 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Well, that's even more sad. Stop it. What's sad is you and Scato clearly could learn things from each other but you guys decided to squabble instead. What method did you use to 'debug' BS? I don't have an alpine. Did you use emulation? How did you determine that I'm assuming its the 68k is babysitting whatever uart bugfix is in BS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Swiftly back on topic: @Eyemsougly-Yep i've always found it odd that Rebellion take so much 'crap' for C.Flag II (ok, it's an horrendous game in places, but they were a small team, limited resources) As I mentioned before Rebellion shows strong evidence of being a half-ass development house. As for limited resources, only one guy did World Tour Racing for the Jaguar, ok two including the music guy. And that game is tons better than CF on the Jaguar. With texturing. CF is straight polygons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Stop it. What's sad is you and Scato clearly could learn things from each other but you guys decided to squabble instead. What method did you use to 'debug' BS? I don't have an alpine. Did you use emulation? How did you determine that I'm assuming its the 68k is babysitting whatever uart bugfix is in BS? LOL. I guess I'm 'holding myself back' By looking at the code in a debug window. All the windows. Until my screen was full of debug windows, and I had to buy another monitor, just for more debug windows. That's how you reach enlightenment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 LOL. I guess I'm 'holding myself back' You most certainly are. So you are saying you have determined that the UART is being nanny watched in BS or are you referring to the uart fix code posted earlier in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) You most certainly are. So you are saying you have determined that the UART is being nanny watched in BS or are you referring to the uart fix code posted earlier in this thread? Well, with all those releases, RAPTOR API, 2 basics and a bunch of ST ports... imagine what I could achieve in 10 years if I wasn't holding myself back.... maybe um, nothing, or possibly a port of an 8 bit 32k game? Perhaps I could have studied copyright and patent law? At the very least I could learn how to stash copies of games under my bed to ebay on rainy days. GOSH! THANK YOU JC, you really helped me out there. Go open a few debug windows and find out yourself. That's how you learn. And then you can make qualified statements. Until then, you seem have problems using the 'ignore user' function. Edited March 8, 2015 by CyranoJ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Go open a few debug windows and find out yourself. That's how you learn. And then you can make qualified statements. Until then, you seem have problems using the 'ignore user' function. Well I guess when you release a game of the magnitude of Battlesphere you will be ready to make qualified statements about it as well. Maybe someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Well I guess when you release a game of the magnitude of Battlesphere you will be ready to make qualified statements about it as well. Maybe someday. You just keep coming back for more, don't you? Magnitude of Battlesphere? ROFL. 8k. Star Raiders. Much better than BSG, any day of the week. I guess when you've opened enough debugging windows to finally get 'HELLO WORLD' working you'll be qualified to discuss code with other people. Maybe someday? Not likely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyemsougly Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 If you don't, like the the Jaguar didn't, then you don't try to market based on the unbelievable power of your system.. No way that Iron Soldier, Superburnout, Cybermorph or Fight for Life could have been done on the SNES or Genesis without an extra chip in the cartridge and perhaps even with it. When the Jaguar was released it was the best hardware on the market until the Saturn came out 2 years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) You just keep coming back for more, don't you? Magnitude of Battlesphere? ROFL. 8k. Star Raiders. Much better than BSG, any day of the week. I guess when you've opened enough debugging windows to finally get 'HELLO WORLD' working you'll be qualified to discuss code with other people. Maybe someday? Not likely. Haha! Talk code? Don't need to talk code. We were talking evidence. Evidence against evidence. Any layman can do that. What we can all plainly see with our own eyes. This is just a hobby CJ. Relax. I am going to, and let the matter rest. Peace out my friend. Edited March 8, 2015 by JagChris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynxJagLunatic Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I was so hoping the Jaguar would have been a success but they really had no chance of competing. Nintendo and Sega were just too strong and with Atari's reputation they were never going to gain market share. It's sad that the Jag failed so hard that it killed Atari also. All we have left are the memories of what was and we're left with these great consoles. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Haha! Talk code? Don't need to talk code. We were talking evidence. Evidence against evidence. Any layman can do that. What we can all plainly see with our own eyes. This is just a hobby CJ. Relax. I am going to, and let the matter rest. Peace out my friend. Of course you don't need to 'talk code' because you are incapable of it. So, anyone else who wants to discuss 'code' with you has to 'prove they can' - but you can discuss anything you want despite having pants on your head? Try applying your own standards to yourself before you attempt to enforce them upon others 'my friend'. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I don't know if they were never going to gain market share, but everything in this thread is armchair ceo stuff. It's hypothesis. It's possible. IMO its very possible that the Jaguar could have been at least a niche success if at least some/a lot of things had been done different. Watching Leonard Tramiel on Facebook when he talks about it I don't ever hear him say 'we should have done this or that different'. It's always something 'out there' in his mind that was outside of Atari's control that caused their ruin. I am not privy to every one of those conversations but the ones I have seen he doesn't say 'yeah we could have done differently and that would have helped' or something similar. And I've been looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagChris Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Of course you don't need to 'talk code' because you are incapable of it. So, anyone else who wants to discuss 'code' with you has to 'prove they can' - but you can discuss anything you want despite having pants on your head? Try applying your own standards to yourself before you attempt to enforce them upon others 'my friend'. Would you knock it off? Let it go. The basic concepts are simple to grasp. Sometimes I make an assumption that may be incorrect. Like whether or not the BS AI used gpu/dsp or m68k. And it's still undetermined as far as I can tell. And when I do that I recognize my mistake, back off and say 'my bad'. Whereas your crew takes that one mistake and pounces all over it like aha!! See he's incapable of grasping these concepts!!! nyah nyah nyah1 No I just admitted when I made a mistake. When is the last time you did that CJ? Now chill out 'my friend'. And how did you know I have pants on my head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CyranoJ Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Would you knock it off? Let it go. The basic concepts are simple to grasp. Sometimes I make an assumption that may be incorrect. Like whether or not the BS AI used gpu/dsp or m68k. And it's still undetermined as far as I can tell. And when I do that I recognize my mistake, back off and say 'my bad'. Whereas your crew takes that one mistake and pounces all over it like aha!! See he's incapable of grasping these concepts!!! nyah nyah nyah1 No I just admitted when I made a mistake. When is the last time you did that CJ? Now chill out 'my friend'. And how did you know I have pants on my head? Ah, so we'll just completely ignore that bat-shit crazy rant out of nowhere you went on in the RMAC thread shall we? Last time I admitted a mistake? Check the 'bugs' section in the RAPTOR forum... Gosh! If I was perfect, that section wouldn't even exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 No way that Iron Soldier, Superburnout, Cybermorph or Fight for Life could have been done on the SNES or Genesis without an extra chip in the cartridge and perhaps even with it. When the Jaguar was released it was the best hardware on the market until the Saturn came out 2 years later. Fight for Life is not a good example of anything, and who really cares about extra chips? If a console can make use of extra chips in a cartridge and it uses them for more powerful games, it still counts. Regardless, I wouldn't even call the Jaguar the best hardware on the market until the Saturn. I'd argue based on the software we got that the 3DO was the technologically superior platform. Again, I'm of the mind don't tell me what the specs are on paper, show me in the software. The 3DO easily showed off more power in the software in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I don't know if they were never going to gain market share, but everything in this thread is armchair ceo stuff. It's hypothesis. It's possible. IMO its very possible that the Jaguar could have been at least a niche success if at least some/a lot of things had been done different. Out of curiosity, based on the sales figures we know of that are fact, i.e., the 125,000 sold through the end of 1995 and another 100,000 sitting in warehouses that eventually went out when it was liquidated, what target sales figure would you consider for it to be a "niche success." Frankly, with the total units the Jaguar actually sold, it wouldn't even be considered a particularly successful SINGLE game on other platforms, let alone a sustainable business model for a CONSOLE where even selling a few million units (MANY multiples of what the Jaguar sold even when liquidated) is a failure. Again, the Jaguar was probably the least successful of the major console releases, so it's a big stretch to envision success scenarios for it. Atari would have had to have been an especially lean, smart organization, one laser focused on just the console itself and who greelit and saw through to completion truly compelling game concepts. That's a lot to ask of any company, let alone a post-Crash Atari. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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